HT,

Just a question.

How can your W ever trust you when you don't trust yourself?

God Bless,

JL

Pep,

I learned from the best.

That would be YOU.

JL

hurtingturkey...

I'd be interested in your answer to JL's question, but I also have one of my own...Why do you insist upon calling your wife "my wonderful, gentle WW" ad nauseam? Why the same adjectives over and over? It is beginning to sound a bit Rainman-ish at this point, and I wonder, do you do that for you [if so, why?], for her [as in, is she reading here?] or do you do it to try and incite others [again, if so, why?]? Because frankly, that reads like fingernails on a chalkboard to most folks here...Your wife may well have been wonderful and gentle PRIOR to her affair, and certainly can become those things again, but WHILE she is WAYWARD, she is NOT being wonderful or gentle...I'm sorry, she's not...

Also, if your wife fears you, she can certainly reveal who OM is in the presence of a counselor...

Mrs. W

I would point out that Plan A is NOT meant to be a way of life, hurtingturkey...That would have your giver in overtime all the time - which is just as harmful to a marriage as is having your taker run amok...The giver and taker must be in balance otherwise you create an entitled monster in your spouse...a very bad plan...

Mrs. W

Just Learning
Fair Question and part of the equation. How can she trust me? I would have to answer that she cannot and should not. But then we all know what Dr. H says on that subject.
Can I trust me? The answer is no. Repeat a behavior for 12 years and it becomes firmly ingrained. If I do not keep my new found knowledge of control and verbal abuse of family in my conscious mind, it could come out again. It will be a life long process for me now to NEVER do it again. I have been successful for more than half a year now and that is encouraging but then again I stopped smoking for 11 years and started again last summer when this problem was tearing me apart. If I ever go back to that behavior there won't be any nicotene patches. It is frightening to realize what I did. There are lots of reasons from things that happened to me earlier in my life but they are not excuses for treating anyone like I did. Even though my mother in law hugged me for more than a minute on Christmas Day I am still afraid to look her in the eyes. What I do trust about myself related to my verbal abuse and controlling behavior is that I now know it was wrong! Beyond wrong!
Mrs. W - your question is also very fair. Why do I insist in calling my WW wonderful and gentle? Mostly because if I do not see her that way and allow myself to see the selfishness and premeditated nature of an A, I will focus on things that could trigger anger and with my history I just cannot. But there is another reason... Sometimes adults, just like children, behave in the manner in which they are expected to behave. I understand the chalkboard analogy. Believe me, I understand it. That is not my intent and I am sorry if that triggers others emotions here. So... I even call my wife "my beautiful wonderful, gentle wife" to her face several times daily or over the phone. Yup, that is who I want back. She has even recently (yesterday) said to me "you don't have to call me that all the time" and I responded with "but that is who you are." I guess maybe its part of my hope to encourage her to be that person again.
Yes, the entitlement issue bothers me. You are a pretty good diagnostician. I do fear that but really don't know what else to do given the circumstances. We have been working through the first three "emotional needs" and honesty is #1 on my list. My plan for meeting her top 3 needs has been completed for several weeks and my wonderful, gentle WW has not completed hers. I asked her this morning to complete her plan and received a promise that she would. I am not holding my breath.
I am sure that some of my verbal abuse and control stemmed from me feeling that I was the giver in the marriage. Today, she thinks of me more often before she acts. That is factual but every time I light a cigarette the nicotene hit is to calm me and reduce the pain of the A. If the opportunity presents I have almost decided that I should read what is now a 4,600 word letter that I have constructed with help from this board on the A subject. I would so much like to get it out in the open before the symbolic end of this year tonight. I think if I read the letter I can prevent it from being more harsh and I can ask her to ask questions during etc.
I am very afraid because doing that might be me trying to control her and I don't want to step on the progress I have made in mastering my bad behavior in her mind. If I don't get it done this weekend she will be back in school and I will have to back off so that she can concentrate on her studies (she struggles with school pressure beyond my comprehension but it is absolutely real). I often test her on her mastery the night before a test and she knows the answers and then takes the test and under test pressure misses questions that she does know the correct answer to. Long story made short, I will have to be in limbo until March 5th when she finishes her first semester and has a one week break from nursing school.
I thank you for the thoughtful questions. I have one "entitled adult child" and boy do I know what a problem that is. I believe one reason I have in the past been so Drill Instructor tough on my now ten year old is that I did not want to make that his path through life.
Going back to the do I trust me question? I used to trust me before I looked in the mirror and saw a verbal abuser. That has shaken me beyond belief.
Here is what I wrote when I realized it...
The recognition that I am a verbally abusive husband is only beginning to sink in.
When my wife first told me "I have never been treated like this my any man." I heard her comparing me to other men and ignored the factual statement in her comment. Years. Finally I read something this past May (Dr. Harley) that made me recognize that my stinging rebukes and "insight" were hurtful and not helpful. Now suddenly I see things that I never saw before. I always looked at me as a good man. An honest man. A good provider. All I ever wanted to do was be loved because I loved. Now I have to wonder at myself as to why I can say I love this woman who has been my wife and have done this. She is fragile and gentle and I love that about her. She did not grow up in the agressive competitive family that I did and her world had no room for what I defined as normal. And yet I did not listen to her. And I attacked her. The more I attacked, the more she withdrew and the more she withdrew the more I attacked. This is my fault. Life through some twists made it happen but this is my fault. I don't want forgiveness. I want to stop with my whole heart.
1. I have started medication for depression.
2. I have begun seeing a psychologist for this problem.
3. I have begun marriage counseling with my wife.
And I am afraid. Today I am not having the panic attacks that have raked me over day after day recently. Why would I do this?
4. I am taking a 60 hour on line anger management course to start myself off.
5. I have gone to my mother in law and admitted my verbal abuse. Of course she knew.
But I have two overwhelming (at times) fears now:
(A.) That I will do it again by habit.
(B.) That I will not be able to help myself even after taking the above steps and even though I now know it was wrong.
I cannot believe this is me and if I were my wife I would already have left. Fear now that she will leave is also overwhelming even though she states she will not.
How could this be me? I am the kid who the "in crowd" pretty girls wrote in my year book "Stay as nice as you are."
How could I have become this?

Hope I have answered the questions. Now I will try and have a gentle, loving discussion tonight. If it is pushed off I will have to stop for a while. Do I have the courage to do it? I promise I will write this board and let you know.

Hi HT...

I only have a second right now as I need to get myself and our daughter ready before Mr. W comes home and we all leave to go to a New Year's Eve party...Thank you for answering my question - after I posted it, Mr. W and I talked about your possible reasoning and we came up with pretty close to what you said...

I hope you understand the fears of everyone here that have posted to you - we really do worry that you are swinging too far in the other direction, which will not help you OR your wife...My best suggestion to you would be for you and your wife to attend a Marriage Builders Weekend - it is FABULOUS - we attended back in May of 2007 and we can't praise the program enough...I REALLY think it would be helpful to you guys because it would give you daily direct access to Dr. Harley himself - AND it provides an amazing accountability program...I fear your situation may be out of the depth of what we forum members can handle, but I have full confidence in Dr. Harley's abilities...What do you think?

Mrs. W

HT.....Thank you for sharing that info with me regarding the anger mgmt. I really, really appreciate it. I read the entire post. I can relate, unfortunately.

I also understand your fears of backsliding. I grew up in a household full of angry people, and I know how hard it is to get rid of that ingrained habit.

Since you've done some anger mgmt work, I may not have much to offer you, you probably know a lot more than me.

I have not been as successful as it seems you have. But, I believe I have made progress. And I've gotta tell you, I have backslided and I can't even begin to tell you how much I beat myself up, and create more fear for me when that happens.

But I will tell you a few things that have helped me, that I'm not great at yet..........

One sure fire way to help with anger is to have BOUNDARIES in place. If you allow yourself to get walked on, you will lose it eventually, or at least I have. I haven't read your entire thread, so I don't know if that has already been talked about here. Sorry if it has.

Boundaries keep you from being a doormat. They are designed to keep you healthy and sane. It's a plan to keep you from losing it, really.

The idea is to decide what you need for yourself to be sane and happy. Then you have to decide what PRE-DETERMINED STEPS you'll take if someone, such as your wife, crosses those boundaries. Then you tell that person what your boundaries are, and what steps you'll take if they're crossed. That way, you're not acting on emotions, but a plan. No one can claim that you flew off the handle, if you handle it this way. And YOU don't have to worry about emotional outbursts, because you have a plan. Easier said than done, for me. But if you ENFORCE your boundaries, it gets easier. So, that's one thing.

Another thing that has helped is learning how to communicate with someone, like your wife, in a way that you feel heard and validated. There is a free website..... google "Turtle's relationship Counseling" and you will find the info there. Look for an article about "dialog".

This dialog is soooo important, especially in marriage.

I know first hand the guilt you feel, and how scary it is to share your hurt, anger, sadness, whatever because of the emotions inside of you. But you have to be able to share your feelings with your wife in a safe manner. The dialog can do this for you, so that you're not suppressing anything. You don't want to be the pressure cooker. That most of all scares me. This dialog technique is also good for asking for things that you need.

And lastly, if not in dialog, but normal conversation about emotional stuff, you need to learn to "let go of the reponse". That's along the lines of stating your feelings honestly, and letting go of the outcome. Because we can't change anyone else.

Btw....good job on seeking help.

HT,

My question was serious. If you cannot trust yourself, how could she trust you? What will it take for you to say, even if I start, I will recognize it and stop? What will it take for you to understand your past tendencies enough to recognize them and change your approach before you act?

Is it possible that you AND your W could work on a plan that would allow her to signal you when she starts to fear you are losing it? You cannot spend your life running from yourself, but you can spend your life addressing your tendencies in a positive manner. You now know that anger is a secondary emotion driven by primary ones such as: pain, fear, frustration, anxiety, etc. As you recognize this, the idea is to address the primary problem NOT react in anger.

Your W could help you as you become more attuned to yourself, and she sees that you are. Have you talked to her like you have your MIL? If so what has she said?

God Bless,

JL

Just Learning: I took your question seriously. Sorry if my response was not clear. Yes, my wife talks with me about my tendancy towards Verbal Abuse and Control. She is well aware that it stopped last summer. If I do anything with our ten year old (who can be trying at times especially on his homework) that concerns her we have agreed that she takes over immediately. I walk away and that works. Most of our arguments and my Verbal Abuse come from child rearing (parenting) issues. Probably 85% of them over the years. In our hers, mine and ours family the typical blended family issues are there and have been there. I graduated # 4 in a High School of 2,350 students yet I had a tennis racket broken over my head my senior year for not studying enough. Need I say more about where my drill instructor like behavior with our ten year old came from?
Just Learning, I cannot trust myself. I know she cannot trust me. We do have a system in place where she will tell me even if she thinks my facial expression is inappropriate. And my wonderful, gentle WW will tell me even if she thinks I might become the slightest bit irritated. I have been faithful to my training and it has not happened with her at all since the summer. With my ten year old I can become too tough on him and I now wear a tape recorder in my pocket when I do homework with him so that I can hear myself. Sadly, since he has learned from me, it is also there so he can hear himself. Its magic, when we know we are being tape recorded it is much easier to behave.
My ten year old needs to grow into a gentle, assertive and intelligent man but I am readjusting my sights... he does not need to be an Ivy Leaguer unless that is HIS CHOICE.
As for an update on my discussion with my wonderful, gentle beautiful WW it did not go very far. I promise to write the story of the discussion up for this board. Suffice to say I am just disappointed but I was gentle and kind and only spoke of my feelings. I did not quite set boundaries (I fear that would be controling) but I did talk about the boundaries I thought should be appropriate. I did not hear agreement and that hurts like heck so I smoked a dozen cigarettes (not a good coping mechanism for someone who quit eleven years ago).
I will write more later.
Blessings

I have to say this: If your wife has been subjected to your severe verbal abuse for years and has not left you or gone into screaming, hee-bee-jeebie fits, she is much tougher than you think.

Don't go too far to the extreme, hurtingturkey. Your wife is a grown woman, and deserves to be treated as such...not some fragile flower. Besides...the fragile flower role can become a tool for manipulation, and you do NOT want that, I'm sure!

Have you arranged for a one-hour meeting once a week where you discuss your marriage? Just the two of you?

HT,

Oh Man I have soooo much to tell you. You said

First your life experiences are no excuse for your behavior nor how you look at your 10 year old child. Clearly you did not enjoy your life experience so why are you punishing your child for what your folks did to you? Answer that one to start with.

Next, I could write for hours about men like you because my children went to a school with man of their children. You cannot trust yourself because you you have recognized your behavior as bad, but you don't understand it. You don't understand what your expectations are and how out of whack they are.

So let's talk about 10 year old kids for a few moments. I know this back and forth is going to take many pages because I have sooo much to tell you. First, ever hear of anyone asking for a 10 year olds transcripts in a job interview or college app??? Did you even think that if your son is extremely bright, he will NOT enjoy or prosper in school? Do you think that your child might actually be normal and has he/she grows changes will occur and those changes will make them a better student???

Do you ever think of all of the life you missed while spending a lot of time in library when you should have been playing as a child? Do you ever think that happiness is more important than a grade point average? Do you ever think that your child will grow up and not only not respect you, he/she will be so afraid of your negative responses to them, they won't share their life with you???

In short, have you thought at all about the costs of not being allowed to be a child?

Your expectations for your child will almost guarentee that he/she will not achieve their true potential in life.

Now before you decide I must be soft in the head as well as soft in the heart, you should know a few things about me. I am a male, much older than you. I grew up in the military family with a father who expected our best efforts. So I have a clue about what you are saying. Can you imagine his shock when I turned down going to Cal Tech, so that I could go to another school and play football and basketball. But, you know what he did, which suprised me given our interactions when I was growing up. He said "is this what you want? I said yes and then he said alright go for it, I support you."

What your boy needs to do is grow up into is the man he is supposed to be and you have no idea what that is at 10 years of age. You are right he does not need to be an Ivy Leaguer. What he needs to be is a man with a passion for something, and that may take until way past college, you don't know.

I have three grown children all have graduated college and I can tell you from experience the path can be strange and winding, and very unexpected. Each of them has taken a very surprising path, and yet each has been and is successful.

But, in some cases it took more time than others.

Please give your son the biggest gift a young man can have...a father that will guide him, and support him even if he screws up now and then. Your problem is expectations and really a lack of a sense of humor. Kids are funny and do the dumbest things. You need to learn to laugh.

I will leave you with a true story from my oldest. I believe it was 3rd or forth grade, whenever they take the Iowa tests. My W and I get a call from the school because they were very concerned about him. We go to the school and speak with the teacher. It seems he did poorly on the Iowa tests, in fact, no student had ever done so badly in the history of this school which was a public school. So I asked the teacher, what she had told him and the class. She said " Well I told them when they finished, they should sign the test and then go out to recess." Well it seems my son was the champion of his grade at some game or other, and when asked he expressed that he didn't know anyone in Iowa, and really didn't care what they thought of him, so he signed his name, made a few perfunctory marks on the test and went out to defend his honor at whatever game he was the champion at.

The teacher realized as soon as she told us what she said, what had happened, she had boys as well. I just laughed, my W laughed, and no one ever asked for his Iowa test scores as far as I knew. He got into the college of his choice and is now very successful. My point, learn to laugh, I understand frustration as they get to be teenagers, but fortunately for my W and I our children were into sports so the education opportunities for a parent were great. We could teach them about many things: work, effort, integrity, honesty, life is not fair, via their experiences in sports and dealing with their many coaches. Did they always succeed, nope, and those failure were the best things that happened to them, because in their failures one can teach.

You cannot teach from intimidation. You cannot teach from an abusive point of view. Your best opportunity to teach is when they really want to acheive something, whether it is to be the best figure painter in the world, the best muscian, or the best athlete.

HT, you need to change your perspective and you need to really examine your goals when interacting with your son. I know a lot of parents from our school, who pushed and pushed and the kids got into Ivy League schools, but their experiences there were not all that positive, nor have their lives been afterwards. Nothing wrong with such goals, but only if it is what the child wants and is comfortable with.

Please think about this.

JL

Lady Clueless: You make your point well. I have the advantage of knowing my wonderful, gentle WW over those years. I saw the shock she would go into. Not unlike a prize fighter who has been hit hard in the head. I just did not see it that way at the time... I saw it as anger. Some of it was, but most of it was hurt. She could not fight back. She retreated. Wayward behavior (and I have listened to her talk to herself about it on a hidden microphone came from hurt and terrible pain that I motivated with my behavior). The fact is her toughness in staying was more about being determined to take care of the children (hers and ours). And yes, I am taking my punches now. Lots of them. Some days I don't feel up to it. But I know she is gentle and what punches I take now don't amount to much compared to the last 11 + years. I guess since I dealt with this issue alone some 19 years ago at the close of my first marriage it is slightly less of a shock. My expectations are not as high as they once were. And I know I will likely be called to task for that comment but I see no point in lying on the board. Amazingly I did most of the things in Surviving an A back then without reading the book. What I did wrong then was giving too much when I moved out. I was subjected to physical abuse before I left (yes it can happen to men. Scratches on my wrists, neck back and a black eye at one point. I was powerless to do much of anything. I even curled into a ball on the floor and was kicked repeatedly one afternoon. So I guess I see gentleness in relative terms according to my experience.
Cat Person, yes we are having meetings about every ten days with a Marriage Coach. I am benefitting but my wonderful gentle WW has not bonded well to date to Steve H.
Just Learning: I printed your response and it is under the visor in my car. I have a 75 mile one way commute to work and frequently read a prayer that I keep there which asks for me to have strenght to overcome my verbal abusive tendancies. I will now add your commentary to those daily readings.
Its a tough time of year for everyone hurting right now. I lost my Dad at the end of December (in later years he became my best friend, and I lost my mother who was very wonderful and gentle twenty days later). I wish I had them still here. Everytime I have a good picture of my youngest son in soccer or basketball I have the impulse to send them the picture before recalling that they are not there.
Thank you for sharing Just Learning. I appreciate your time and your wisdom.

I guess maybe I am writing to myself but that makes some of the fear easier to handle. I hope that is okay with the rules of this board.
Well, I promised a post (I THINK) about my attempted discussion with my beautiful, wonderful, gentle WW. On this past Saturday I read an almost 5,000 word letter to my WW. I dealt with two issues: 1. A male friend who was her boss for seven years that I know she still has contact with.
Less than 10 days into our marriage I found a file folder in my new wife�s filing cabinet that contained a Valentine from her boss. It said that �Since the moment I met you, I knew you were special and over the years my instincts have proven correct and today I am wishing you a very special Valentines Day. My WW was married to someone else back then. The card was signed Love, ____.
I immediately showed the card to my new wife and she told me �I was surprised at the card and thought that I better back off with him.� I asked her not to see him at all any more (interesting that he had an excuse to not attend our marriage ceremony and reception as he and his wife were invited. I made the error of telling her she could talk with him by phone.
Now come forward to last Saturday. I told my WW (I read her the letter and then gave it to her) that if I knew then what I know now that I would have insisted on no contact. I actually wrote the man a letter one month into my marriage and told him I did not want him to see my new wife but that it was okay if they talked from time to time. I told him in the letter that I knew he would not want his wife to see the card. This man and his wife were friends of my new wife and her ex-husband before we were married. Well, I have reason to believe this relationship has lots of the elements of an off again � on again EA. My WW has not as of this date made any effort to talk about this other than to state that she does not love him and that he is just the big brother she never had and that she has not seen him in person. I really thought I might get an agreement for her to drop the relationship but no such luck. Maybe I am more optimistic than I let on. Perhaps (if I am honest with myself) this on going relationship (even if it was just a phone contact every couple of months) fed some of the fear that became anger which I expressed by raising decibels (Verbal Abuse) until I recognized the harm I was creating by dong this.
As for the Student who she went to... and may have broken it off with. My WW just denied there ever was such. I know there was because I heard her talk about it on tape I just do not know the name.
My WW has been out of school for three weeks and on Saturday I gently told her I was disappointed she had not filled out her work assignment (Plan for meeting my top three emotional needs). This at least she completed yesterday and e-mailed in (yes I have a key logger and all the other snooping stuff but if she uses e-mail she either uses the local library computer or a school computer). So� here is where I am. I just can�t get angry, but I am hurting. I set the dinner table for this and now I am eating the raw crow. I do see my wonderful, gentle WW in much the same way I now see myself and my Verbal Abuse (I just did not recognize the harm I was doing). I now know what terrible pain I caused. I continue Plan A and maybe, just maybe I am thinking a little about Plan B. I am not worried about the economics so much. I don�t value material things very much so if I have to live in an efficiency so be it. I do worry about my ten year old. We have a vacation in early March planned and I could be ready to go by then if the issue remains open. Meanwhile, life at home is much better than it has been in many years I suppose I should be grateful for that.

Actually, I meant do just you and your wife sit down at the kitchen table after your son's asleep, say, on Sunday night, and review the week? It gives you a way to be polite and honorable and respectful to each other as you are both able to say what you feel without the other protecting themselves, it's only a short time so you don't get dragged down, and it gives you a feeling of moving forward. The benefit of doing that is that, for the rest of the week, you can focus on happy productive stuff like activities with your son, and basically vow not to dwell on affairs or marriage, etc., all the rest of the time: you know you'll be talking about it on Sunday night.

It takes the pressure off.

Whatever you do, try not to agree to separate the family; it will be almost impossible to reconcile if you do.

I'm sorry for the loss of your parents.

Can I have an "Amen" to that?

Reviewing the week on Sundays is a plan Dr. Harley recommends. Review your UA time, plan your UA time, discuss any major issues or Love Busters in a calm and loving way with the intent on figuring out how to not repeat the event rather than blame... it's wonderful. Usually That's when FWW and I do our reading from pro-marriage books, too.

CatPerson
I am going to make that suggestion. I believe she will be receptive - I think that your comment that "it gives you the feeling that you are moving forward" is something that I could use at any rate. I think my WW is so pleased that my decibels are not there that she may actually be delighted just to have a marriage without me YSTing (yell, scream, threaten). I know I am about that. I will let you know how that goes. It sounds like terrific advice.

You know, given your past, you may want to use a talking stick. She may fear that you won't keep your word and not AO her when she speaks her mind and will revert to abuse, so using a talking stick will be a tangible, visible reminder to be polite.

"Talking Stick" ?
I did consider giving her my yellow and red cards (I referee soccer)at one point. She does log my verbal abuse now (its been empty save an episode where I raised my voice with my ten year old in mid November).