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[quote=Zelmo]
How do you know that "no one else has seen it"? Have you inquired of everyone? You are the only person who claims to have seen this quote. Do you have it? [/quote Okay, I will begin the process of dredging it up. The fact that I am the only one mentioning it, however, is significantly different than the claim that no one has ever seen it. Still no quote, Zelmo.  Well, heck Mel, I told you I had to go shopping. Okay, here is what I have found so far: We had a fairly lenghty discussion about this just about a year ago on a thread entitled "Do Serial Cheaters Ever..." We agreed that Harely was on record as saying that Plan A fails about 85% of the time, necessitating implementation of Plan B. I think you and Mark gave me the 15% success rate. So, then , apparently, I found an April 2008 article from Dr Harley, where he said that Plan B increases the chances of divorce(ostensibly as compared to Plan A). With this info, it is pretty easy to come up with a less than 30% success rate:15% max for Plan A and, presuming that Plan B increases the chances of divorce >15% for paln B. This >30% chance total. I will try to find the April 2008 article. Not sure where I saw it. I'll get back to you on that. The exchanges I mentioned were in posts 2176322 and 2176291.
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Folks, this is edging dangerously close to personal attacks and TOS violations. Can I suggest that we get back on track? I posted the original topic as a opinion piece, possibly to help other BS in my position to consider what they might be dealing with.
Thank you, and :MerryChristmas: Fred, in general, I find these folks very respectful. Debate is good and we seem to be able to, for the most part, not make things personal.
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Fred,
While I completely understand the desire to learn about different mental issue's, not to mention the fascinating things surrounding all of that (and it is interesting....BTDT), it would behoove you if you allow it to side-track you from the ULTIMATE goal, which is personal healing......
not2fun Good advice and quite easily done, IMO. These concepts, figuring out who you were dealing with and working on one's own issues, particularly the "picker" issue, are intertwined and go well together, IMO. They are not mutually exclusive.
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Fred, in general, I find these folks very respectful. Debate is good and we seem to be able to, for the most part, not make things personal. Zelmo, I have no problem with debate, but I thought this topic was about AsPD and sociopathy, not about MB success rates.
Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words. St. Francis of Assissi
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Good advice and quite easily done, IMO. These concepts, figuring out who you were dealing with and working on one's own issues, particularly the "picker" issue, are intertwined and go well together, IMO. They are not mutually exclusive. The problem is not the "picker".....I can think of a MILLION reasons why H and I should not have married....if the problem was only because of one's "picker", than chances are very high, everyone's "picker" is broken.... Take my Aunt for example....she has been married 7 times...(yes, you are reading that right....SEVEN)....who's "picker" is broken, her or her former H's???.....I can tell you right now, she would say her's is broken, but so would her H's..... which came first ....the chicken or the egg???....
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Fred, in general, I find these folks very respectful. Debate is good and we seem to be able to, for the most part, not make things personal. Zelmo, I have no problem with debate, but I thought this topic was about AsPD and sociopathy, not about MB success rates.  .....I think Z likes to move as many topics as he can over to OT......Sorry Fred, no disrespect to you...I'll bow out now.....
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The problem is not the "picker".....I can think of a MILLION reasons why H and I should not have married....if the problem was only because of one's "picker", than chances are very high, everyone's "picker" is broken....
Take my Aunt for example....she has been married 7 times...(yes, you are reading that right....SEVEN)....who's "picker" is broken, her or her former H's???.....I can tell you right now, she would say her's is broken, but so would her H's.....
which came first ....the chicken or the egg???.... N2F, this is the second M of mine to go off the rails. It's her fourth. Maybe she doesn't question her picker, but if I don't at least look into the possibility that I'm attracted to the "wrong kind" of woman, then I'm fated to repeat my mistakes. I don't want to come on here some time in the future and say, "there goes #3..." This is why I'm reading and probing MB's principles so deeply. I see a program that can help me find the loving relationship I want. And I'm 50% of that, too.
Last edited by Fred_in_VA; 12/24/09 01:33 PM. Reason: Added MB comment.
Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words. St. Francis of Assissi
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[So, then , apparently, I found an April 2008 article from Dr Harley, where he said that Plan B increases the chances of divorce(ostensibly as compared to Plan A). With this info, it is pretty easy to come up with a less than 30% success rate:15% max for Plan A and, presuming that Plan B increases the chances of divorce >15% for paln B. This >30% chance total. In other words you can't produce a statement where he says: He goes on to say that Plan B is successful even less than plan A. Your paraphrase above says no such thing. I would like to see where he says that "Plan B is successful even less than plan A" because I am pretty sure that is just your interpretation based on a misunderstanding of the facts.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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[So, then , apparently, I found an April 2008 article from Dr Harley, where he said that Plan B increases the chances of divorce(ostensibly as compared to Plan A). With this info, it is pretty easy to come up with a less than 30% success rate:15% max for Plan A and, presuming that Plan B increases the chances of divorce >15% for paln B. This >30% chance total. In other words you can't produce a statement where he says: He goes on to say that Plan B is successful even less than plan A. Your paraphrase above says no such thing. I would like to see where he says that "Plan B is successful even less than plan A" because I am pretty sure that is just your interpretation based on a misunderstanding of the facts. Not necessarily, Mel. As I mentioned, I am looking for the article I ctied back in 12-08. Seems you are hung up on my inability to producer this in short order. But, my computer research skills are fairly slow moving. When I have to brief a case, it takes time, as well. I think it is premature to say that the quote cannot be produced.
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Fred, in general, I find these folks very respectful. Debate is good and we seem to be able to, for the most part, not make things personal. Zelmo, I have no problem with debate, but I thought this topic was about AsPD and sociopathy, not about MB success rates. Sorry. I was just responding to a remark Mark made re the stats I had cited. Fred, I will never understand why some folks feel that researching a potential PD , in some way, impairs one's ability to work the MB program. I think the two are perfectly compatible.
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Let's ask Dr Harley himself!
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Not necessarily, Mel. As I mentioned, I am looking for the article I ctied back in 12-08. Seems you are hung up on my inability to producer this in short order. But, my computer research skills are fairly slow moving. When I have to brief a case, it takes time, as well. I think it is premature to say that the quote cannot be produced. Thats fine, I am patient. 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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she has been married 7 times And every one was an Henry... Sorry... Silly day today... Again... :MerryChristmas: Dat vould be da Svede dancin' dere in da middle... Sorry... Again... 
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Oy vey 
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Let's ask Dr Harley himself! Well, so far no luck. But, I will try again. I googled for the 4-08 article. I seem to recall it was an interview, but am not sure and it was not on MB site, itself. I would imagine that Dr Harley would know who interviewed him in 4-08. If you look at the posts from back then, you will see that no one questioned the existence of the April article. I know that is not dispositive of anything. I'll keep trying.
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Let's ask Dr Harley himself! Well, so far no luck. But, I will try again. I googled for the 4-08 article. I seem to recall it was an interview, but am not sure and it was not on MB site, itself. I would imagine that Dr Harley would know who interviewed him in 4-08. If you look at the posts from back then, you will see that no one questioned the existence of the April article. I know that is not dispositive of anything. I'll keep trying. We are patiently waiting. 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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In the event I can not find it, I would submit to Dr Harley's recollection on this article. If there was no such article, I will promise to cut down on the amount of LSD I take.
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Zelmo, could it be that you may be "mis-remembering?" I came across this quote from Just Learnig, posted in 2003: I know each one of you think YOUR affair was unique. But, Owl has been providing you some of the reasons you think that. However, there is data that suggests that the OM/OW are NOT "all that." The points out that the success rate of marriage from an Affair is about 3% perhaps 5% depending on what base line you use to calculate the percentage. JL's comment was based on statistical data of the success rate of a MARRIAGE between OM/OW and the WS. See this link.
Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words. St. Francis of Assissi
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OK, to get this thread back on track, here's an article titled, "Recovering from a sociopath--Give yourself time and distance"After the sociopath, you're left holding the bag. What's in the bag? Emotional devastation�everything you believed was a lie. Anger�at the sociopath and at yourself for being duped. Financial ruin�you have no money and staggering debts. Children�which the sociopath has either abandoned or demands. Health problems�from sexually transmitted diseases to post traumatic stress syndrome. The sociopath, in the meantime, has moved on, and couldn't care less. It's called "devalue and discard," and it crushes your sense of self. Overcoming the traumaSo how do you recover?First of all, understand that you're not a fool, you were targeted. Sociopaths are expert manipulators. They spend their whole lives perfecting their acts. There are millions of sociopaths on the planet, and each has conned hundreds of people. You are certainly not alone. Secondly, get help�the right help. Do not expect your family and friends to understand. No one really understands unless they, too, have been targeted. If you see a therapist, make sure he or she knows what it's like to be involved with a sociopath. Some therapists are excellent, but others really do not understand the trauma suffered by victims of sociopaths. Finally, give yourself time and distance. The fastest way to heal is to have No Contact with the sociopath. Away from the predator's influence, the reality of the deceptions will become clear. Even so, you will have to do a lot of emotional processing and grieving. Be patient with yourself. For more information, read Survival and Coping Skills on MSN Psychopath. Yes, they existFor any normal, warm-hearted person, it's difficult to believe that sociopaths actually exist. How can a person be so cruel? So empty? So evil? Furthermore, the predator appears to be normal. He or she is living in your community, working at your company, or going to your church. It's enough to make you lose your faith in humanity. In fact, many victims say they will never trust again. Yes, they exist�at 1% to 4% of the population, there are millions of sociopaths out there. But remember, that still leaves more than 90% of the population who aren't sociopaths. There is still good in the world. It is possible to recover, love and trust, if you give yourself permission and time to heal.
Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words. St. Francis of Assissi
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Fred, sorry for this distraction. But, I am just about certain that I read this back in 2008 and it was Harley describing the recovery rates from the two plans. He said Plan A fails 85% of the time to breakup the affair. He was talking about the nest step, Plan B. He went ion to describe how plan B was risky, in that separation often increased the likeliehood of failing to reunite. I recall him saying that implementation of Plan B made the chances of reconciliation even more remote. Presumably, he was referring to Plan A for comparison, as that is what he was talking about just before mentioning Plan B. In any case, 30% recovery is still very impressive, based on what my therapist told me(he has about a 10%recovery rate). I do not think the 30% figure contradicts Harely's assertion re the high rate of success for his program. Clearly, where both partners get on board and work the MB program, the success rate is going to be dramatically higher than the 30% figure applicable to the general sampling group. As I understand what Harley was saying in that April article is that Plan A and Plan B do not often succeed. But, they offer a much higher than average chance of recovering the marriage than doing something else. Then, if you have succeeded in using the Plans to get your WS to want to recover the marriage, the MB stuff like no LB,POJA, RH, etc are utilized to heal the marriage. There are a lot of ways to interpret the stats out there. Some say a very high % of marriages touched by infidelity will survive. BUT, surveys have also shown that while the incidence of cheating is fairly high(some say as high as 80%), the studies have also shown that the vast majority of affairs go undetected. So, a stat could say that 65% of marriages that have contained cheating survive. And, that would include those marriages where the BS knows nothing about the cheating. This doe not mean that where the cheating is uncovered, 65% survive.
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