Zelmo, you misunderstood Dr Harley's point. He never said or implied that "even less" marriages reconcile in Plan B. He never said that.

The rate of affairs that die AFTER the time frame of Plan A is greater than those that die in Plan A. This is where your methodology collapses. It is true that most affairs don't end in the first 3-4 weeks [for women] and 6 months [for men], but that does not mean that most don't end AFTER that time frame.

You have to account for the fact that 95% of affairs fall apart in under 2 years and that 65% of marriages don't break up over affairs.

Its important to interpret all of the data as a WHOLE in order to come to an accurate conclusion.

And more importantly is that Plan B is not designed to end an affair. It makes no such claim. Its only purpose to remove the BS from the abuse of an affair, not to end an affair. So, it makes no sense to say that "Plan B doesn't work" by applying a false standard. It has to judged by the right standard.

The ONLY "success rate" that Dr Harley gives for Plan A or Plan B is his 15% citation of affairs that die while in Plan A. Nowhere does he cite a 30% success rate.

The success rate that he gives for couples who use his program - and I don't mean Plan A and Plan B, but the Marriage Builders PROGRAM - is 100%.

Mel, bear with me here. Assuming that he said that Plan B offers an even smaller chance of success(and I know you do not accept his saying that),what else could he be comparing it's success rate to than Plan A, which he acknowledges fails to break up an affair 85% of the time?

Because many will get "caught up" in the research....and in truth be told there are a million diagnosis' that mirror each other. One can look at Bipolar Disorder and say "ah ha.....that was the problem"....BUT then, if you look up Mancic Depressive Disorder, they could say "oh wait, maybe that was it.."...then turn to Multiple Personality Disorders, and possibly THAT was it....

Then before you know it, you have lost valuable time trying to figure out what mental disorder the WS has. Time that could be BETTER spent on working on themselves, instead enveloping themselves in the drama of the WS issue's......

Like Mark said, the essential ingrediants to being a Wayward Spouse are selfishness (narcissism), blame-shifting,and entitlement.....which is mirrored in a ba-zillion mental issue's.....

Many of the VETS here don't want to get into that issue, because it distracts from what is the whole point of MB, which is MARRIAGE BUILDING.....

If you look around, there are many here that have been diagnosed with different Mental Disorders, yet it doesn't distract them from doing what is necessary to rebuild their marriage.....

Can you imagine if a WS came home to their BS and said, "Honey, I was wrong for what I did. I went to Dr. X and it turns out I have BPD. So, while I know you are hurt by what I have done, but right now I need work on ME......"

I have actually witnessed this first hand. It DOESN'T WORK.....

15 yrs ago, my mom had a nervous breakdown (not her first, but the first one I was old enough to know what was going on....). She and my dad went through heck....and Mom came forward on her 3 affairs, two of which my dad did not know about. So, here is my dad, broken by this revelation, and what did all the "experts" want to do??....Work on mom....

Yes, mom needed work,....but they spent the next 3 yrs. working on mom......

Today??....well, they are back to working on Mom.....

It saddens/angers/exasperates me to no end to watch it again...(actually, I have removed myself from this needless drama.....). When in fact, possibly, just possibly, if they would look at MB, and how to put into ACTION, these very guidelines, they might actually turn a different corner.....

And don't even bother getting me started on the whole "passive-aggressive" disorder movement....


The whole point of MB, to me anyway, was looking at what failure's I had contributed to the marriage (and there were MANY....), work on correcting them, and implimenting them into my life.....

Fred, I understand what you are saying.....the only words of wisdom I have to convey on THAT is if you truly do buy into MB, then any future prospect should be willing to learn about them and put them into practice if a marriage were to take place......

Mark..... ....I don't think there was a Henry in there, of course, I seem not to remember most of the names at this point.....

not2fun

Again, you are making the same mistake in your interpretation. Where is your evidence that "Plan B offers an even smaller chance of success?"

Zelmo, how do you reconcile the fact that 95% of affairs die in under 2 years and 65% of marriages reconcile after adultery with your interpretation that "Plan B offers an even smaller chance of success?"

Can you answer that?

So, If we agree that Plan B is not designed to end affairs, and Plan A works 15% of the time, the total marital recovery is 15%? And, we can define Plan B as successful a high % of the time in achieving its stated goal, BS protection.

Easy. The fact that an affair ends does not mean reconciliation with the BS.
And, the 65% stat, as I mentioned, could include marriages touched by infidelity where the BS is unaware of the infidelity. Studies have shown that most affairs are undetected.

No, I agree to no such thing. That wouldn't make any sense.

That is just speculation on your part, though. Speculation is not truth.

Agreed. Re-read my post. I do not attribute the 30% claim to Harely. And, I do not comment on his 100% claim other than to acknowldege that when both partners participate(which may be a small # of BSs and WSs on whole) the program is highly successful.

Zelmo, the problem with your assertions is they are never backed up with facts or evidence, rather they are just wild extrapolations based on your personal interpretation. Like the unsupported assertion that Dr Harley said "Plan B is successful even less than plan A." That doesn't even make sense if you understand the POINT of Plan B.

It seems you very much want to believe that most marriages don't reconcile after adultery for some reason. Is there a reason it is so important for you to believe this?

Is this what you're actually looking for, Zelmo?

Full article here: What Are Plan A and Plan B?

Since half of all marriages end in divorce and another percentage results in separation for life but with no final divorce and still another percentage remain together but can be said to never really recover, recovery could be seen as a statistical anomaly rather than the rule.

But the key question here is what percentage of marriages recover as the result of using MB methods? That number is significantly higher than marriages that do not follow MB but attempt standard fare therapy methods.

Dr Harley seems to assert that his program always leads to successful recovery but with the qualifier that both the betrayed and the betrayer follow his four rules: Care, Protection, Honesty and Time.

Yet these are actually things that result in the best possible chance at having a happy, healthy and fully functional marriage. MB isn't about Plan A and Plan B but about learning to care for each other, protect each other from our own selfishness and spending time together rather than pursuing individual goals and activities alone or with others while honestly sharing all aspects of our lives with each other.

Couples who both do these things stay happily married to each other till death. Those who can't accomplish these four things end up divorced. Infidelity isn't the key ingredient to the success or failure and Plan A and Plan B are simply methods of trying for a chance to implement the real MB program and apply it to the relationship.

Separation is dangerous, no matter whether for infidelity or any other kind of abuse either emotional or physical. The reason for separation is for protection. In the case of an affair that continues unabated after an attempt at Plan A by the BS, that protection is to prevent the BS from suffering further withdrawals from the Love Bank while waiting for the affair to end. In cases of other abuse issues such as drinking, drugs, or any other instance where the one spouse must be protected from the actions of the other the goal is to wait for the abuser (or infidel) to solve their side of the equation and seek reconciliation by implementing MB since if the one who is being abused ends up hating the abuser then reconciliation is not going to be possible since the abuse victim will not be able to do what it takes to recover.

Plan B is not supposed to end the affair. It usually hastens it as compared to allowing continued cake eating but its purpose is not causing harm to the affair. Rather it is supposed to prevent further harm to the BS.

Since the four rules seem to define a happy marriage it could be said that 100% of those who follow those rules remain happily married. How's that for a statistic?

Mark

ok, I reread it, and you said "the total marital recovery is 15%." It is no such thing. The affairs that end in Plan A are 15%. Most don't end that soon.

Thank you, n2f. That is EXACTLY what I have been trying to say and do.

Melody, I read your post and want to tell you my friend that we were taught not to use terms like ALWAYS or NEVER...MB teaches this.

Is that always true?

The whole "Plan A is successful at breaking up the affair 15% of the time" is a bit of a misnomer.

MANY marriages survive infidelity where the affair ENDED long before the BS even knew about it or where the affair was over on D.Day itself with no plan A whatsoever.

The Plan A we speak of here is where D-Day has occurred and the affair continues. This IS the worst case scenarios but likely the minority of infidelity cases; however, the "success" percentages do go down some as a reflection of the fact pattern and not the program. But Plan B is LONGER...so the affair IS more likely to eventually end in Plan B (percentage wise) but that doesn't necessarily percentage wise lead to a higher percentage of recovered marriages (since BS often move on by the time Plan B works).

Further complicating the use of percentages and words like "the majority/minority of the time" is the fact that nearly 50% of all marriages end in divorce anyway.

Thus, do words like "survive" also have significant meaning. Does "survive" mean 1, 2 or 5 years or until death do us part.


Speaking as a past BS, the percentages don't really mean a heck of a lot. 10%...I would have tried. 90%...I would have tried. Trying is really all you can do and as long as the percentages aren't ZERO, I woulda gave it a shot because I thought my family and wife were worth it and I found hope for a better marital future on these very boards and Dr. Harley's plans.

I can assure you that I believe the risk-reward (no matter what that percentage was) remains well worth it.

Mr. Wondering

LOL, Melody! And as you know I ALWAYS follow EVERY rule of MB. I NEVER divert!!!! HAHAHAHAH! Merry Christmas!