Bubbles, as I have said before, the state requires a six month "waiting period" of separation before any steps can be taken to file for a "no-fault" divorce.

I intend to (a) work to improve my life, both mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually, and (b) work the MB program to see how things stand when the six month period is up.

Because this is a "no-fault" state and we have a Separation and Property Settlement Agreement in place, either party can file for the final decree. It may be that she will seek to do so, and I have no recourse. It may be that I will choose to do so.

I have written that due to some folks' suggestion I have researched personality disorders. I discarded those that were mentioned because they just did not fit (I am familiar with diagnostic criteria). But when I came across the Anti-social Personality Disorder (AsPD) and sociopathy, it was as if I'd been hit by a truck! The criteria fits in so many ways that I'd have to be a babbling fool to ignore it!

Some have suggested that her current behavior not be assessed; this is the "fog" everyone speaks about. I assure you (and them) I am using the entire eight years I've known WW to make my (admittedly unprofessional) diagnosis. The woman who is WW now is an alien to me. This does not invalidate her background and history.

As a result, I am much more comfortable with the idea that she is now someone else's problem. That a married man would have an affair with a married woman does not make me feel sorry for HIM in the least. Right now, they both deserve what they get.

Isn't that kind of disrespectful ML?

Yes it was, so I removed it!

Good evening, everyone (well it's evening here).

I had a very nice Christmas day, but it had a rather bitter ending to it.

My daughter came over this morning. We went out and had a delightful Christmas Day brunch, then came back to my house and exchanged gifts. I ushered her out around 3:00. She had dinner planned at 4:30 with her mother and step-sister and I had a dinner invitation for a number of single A.A. friends. All in all, a delightful day!

Toward the end of the dinner, my sponsee and the man who was my "third party" witness during my WW's "move out" said he needed to speak with me.

It turns out WW called him and asked him to serve in the same capacity when she returns to finish the job on January 9-10. She asked him not to mention it to me, but he told her that wasn't going to happen, that he was going to speak to me about it. She is going to come then with two friends (he later said he thought perhaps one of her sponsees and maybe her sponsor -- that last is doubtful, as her sponsor is an older lady, but we'll see).

WW also complained that I "let the air out of her tires" a week ago when I left the meeting she showed up at. It turns out one of her tires set off the "low pressure" indicator. I never even saw where she parked, so she's either being paranoid about me, or she's trying to suggest I'm somehow making life difficult for me.

I was a little put out that she called him. My Plan B letter did not rule out her calling other people, but it seems somehow manipulative to me. The other thing that has been bothering me (and I know this comes from reading other posts here) is that WW has made absolutely no effort to contact me, contact my IM, or demonstrate any sense of wanting contact, expressing remorse or feeling any regret at all for having the A and leaving.

I continue to be astounded at her apparent lack of conscience. Other WS here seem to be conflicted for the most part. My WW seems somehow calmly determined. She has rented an apartment, paid six months in advance, and seems to me planning to wait out our six month waiting period, and then hope OM divorces his W and marries her. I know I'm projecting, but that's how it appears to me.

Now I am playing out in my head the weekend of January 9-10. I want to remain calm, detached and unemotional. Yet when I start imagining possible conversations, I can't help but start moving in DJ territory. I justify this to myself by imagining the last thing I say to hear as the moving van prepares to drive away is, "I hope you have a good life. I never want to see you again."

So, as you can see, a good day soiled by a sideways breach of NC, and my mind playing games with it.

Otherwise, it was a much nicer Christmas day than I would have expected. It's wonderful to have loving, supportive people around who help keep one standing tall when one sometimes feels like just collapsing. Oddly enough, I do feel like I have turned a small corner in my personal recovery. Now, if only I could sleep a little better...

Seems to me you should consider options that don't include YOU being involved in this move out cluster-pluck.

1. Maybe don't give her anything at all. Possession is 9/10ths of the law and it's all "marital property" which can be divided up by the courts. If she wants to divide up the stuff...get a court order.

2. Rent one of those POD storage units and have it delivered. Load up what you think is hers and anything else you feel like giving to her. Lock it up and she can come get it (give her 14 days to come get it or something). You MAY feel like giving her her stuff...but you don't have to facilitate an amicable division of assets with "witnessess" seemingly present to "protect her". You don't need to be made feel like a perpetrator IN YOUR OWN HOME...especially in the presence of a real abuser.

3. Box it up her personal items and put it in the garage. When she comes...give NO ACCESS to the home...just open the garage and say "there it is" and leave (or watch a ball game on the tv inside to be sure she doesn't break in to steal a few extra things she thinks she's entitled to...WS's always think they are entitled to more)

4. Box it up with a friend or two and have a friend deliver it to her, mail it or drop it on her apartment front step.

Just remember. YOU MATTER. Other than some personal belongings (her clothes, makeup and beauty supplies that would likely all fit in one box) she has NO RIGHT to demand anything absent a court order. You don't have to give in just to be a nice guy. Her actions CAN have consequences. She NOT entitled to your kindness nor can she insist you be "mature" about this. This is hurtful stuff and you don't have to endure it if you don't want to.

As far as reconciliation efforts....again YOU MATTER and standing up for yourself in the face of your abuser actually MAY garner you respect. Don't be a push-over.

Mr. Wondering

She's projecting.

She's anticipating you playing "petty" so she wants witnesses.

I would then expect that since that's what she's expecting, that's what she's planning.

I would as such, get your cell phone or video camera out. And start sorting. What was yours pre-marriage. What was hers. Pack yours up and get it away from her line of sight.

Joint property cannot be removed, as there isn't a divorce. But where it's inventoried and recorded, with serial numbers and everything, you can hand her a disk and tell her to identify which of the joint property items she wants; that way property can be divided up equally and equitably rather than emotionally.

Preparation. I know you're headed to Iceland in a few days so get busy and get your personal pre-marriage stuff out of the way. And the rest inventoried in case there is a break in while you're gone... just saying.

Expect petty.

KaylaAndy & MrW, for the record we have a Property Settlement Agreement and there isn't really any "joint marital property." We both brought goods and furniture into the M, and we have specified what's hers is hers and what's mine is mine. I'm not really concerned about dividing joint property.

What's funny is that she told "third party man" that she felt I was worried that she was going to be "dishonest" with me and take things that weren't hers, as though she was the most honest person on earth and how could I question her honesty? She seems unable to recognize the deceit and dishonesty she exhibited by having an A...

I have already sorted much of her stuff and put it into an empty bedroom -- more to get it out of eyesight than anything else, but you're right -- I should do more preparation and moving of stuff so there isn't any need for her to poke around trying to sort "his" from "hers."

The more I read, the more WW fits the Cluster B personality disorder profile. Alas, the discouraging thing about this disordered type is found in the sentence, "Treating antisocial personality disorder can be difficult as those with this disorder may have little or no desire to change themselves, which is a prerequisite. No medication is available either."

As a growing number of people both here and in my surroundings are beginning to tell me, I'm probably much better off without her. Soon she'll be OM's problem, not mine...

Duh!

"The other thing that has been bothering me (and I know this comes from reading other posts here) is that WW has made absolutely no effort to contact me, contact my IM, or demonstrate any sense of wanting contact, expressing remorse or feeling any regret at all for having the A and leaving."

Duh, duh!

You are in plan B.

You are in plan B because WW is banging the OM.

Plan B is to keep WW's affair out of your face.

WW's do not like plan B because they are blocked from rubbing their affair in your face. WW's do not like 3rd party's because they are the gate keeper to accessing you.

Why would your WW say she is sorry for banging the OM?

She is where she wants to be. She is justifying her affair. In her mind, which is her reality, everything is as it should be.

If you think WW should now want to say "I'm sorry", just how delusional are you?

You got good advice. Put it in the garage. Change the locks and block access to the home.

I'm putting in my vote for Mr. W's suggestion of a storage unit. Since Fred can afford a trip to Iceland in winter (Sir, did you never hear of the TROPICS?!), he can probably spring for a single month's rental of mini-storage...although I'm not sure if there's time to get everything packed and moved before he leaves. But if he CAN get it done before he leaves, everything of hers goes into the unit, the key is given to a trusted third party to deliver to Madame Wayward, and Fred leaves on his trip. Let her get her stuff without ever having an excuse to step foot on the property again. The video recording is a good idea during the sorting out phase, but even getting her stuff out of the garage lets her invade territory which no longer, in any sense, belongs to her. I say, "Keep her out!"

tl

Good morning, MBers! TheRoad, the locks were changed on Dec. 1 (the day after she vacated), the garage door opener removed and the codes erased, the alarm is set whenever I leave, and no access to the home is possible.

The big change for me is that I was reluctant to move her stuff into the garage. Today, that's EXACTLY what I'm going to do!

She wants to come get her furniture and belongings on Jan. 9-10, and I'm going to make it as easy as possible for her to do so. This is a measure of how far I've changed, since originally I wasn't going to enable her moving out in any way, and now I'm going to make it as easy as possible.

She will have no reason to go through every room in the house looking for her stuff -- it's all going to be in one convenient location. Some of the larger furniture she'll have to move, but because it's large, it's quite obvious and in plain sight.

I am all ready for her to become OM's problem.

(Oh incidentally, at the dinner I went to last night, a woman I've known only incidentally revealed to me that she know OM, and was well aware of not only his "wandering eye" -- in fact, she said he is bold enough to just ask women if they want to "do it" -- but also knows his precarious financial condition. Which means WW is likely to bleed him dry in just a matter of months. Of course, I'm not going to be aware of any of the drama, because my Plan B dictates that I move on, and move in a different direction).

I wouldn't have considered this suggestion weeks ago, but that's changed. Unfortunately, I now can't get a storage unit and moving company in time before I leave. So I -am- going to do the next best thing: I'm moving all of her stuff into the garage. At least the stuff I can move (the dining room furniture is hers, two of the bedrooms are her furniture and she has some assorted tables and chairs). I don't know how to prevent her from coming in the house entirely, but I am arranging for there to be *several* people to be here when she is.

(By the way, contrary to its name, Iceland is actually quite temperate. It's no colder there now than it is here -- highs in the 40s, lows in the 20s -- and WW and I used to vacation in the Caribbean. So I'm changing my behavior and avoiding potential triggers).

I grew up in the tropics, and at almost-62, am being pushed--kicking and screaming--into a move to the coldest part of Montana. YOU triggered ME!!

Can you put locks you some of the inside doors--your bedroom, etc.--so she can't try and get into rooms that should be off-limits to her?

tl

Yes, I the bedroom doors have locks on them. Since according to the SPSA, she has six months in which to remove her stuff, in order to not violate the terms of it, I am going to inform her that anything I might find left behind after 1/10/10 I will box up, notify the IM to inform her, and leave on the porch for her to pick up.

As has been said, and I will restate for the record -- according to the SPSA, my home is no longer hers. She can only enter on my permission, and I can restrict her movements however I choose. If she does not accept those terms, I will have a local sheriff escort her off the property. I intend to make my boundaries and conditions known to her via my IM well before she and her retinue arrive.

If you can get people their to watch WW take stuff. Why not get people there before WW shows up to help move her big stuff into the garage?

No reason to go in the house then.

I am going to try to do this.

However, please keep in mind that WW and I combined two FULL HOUSES of furnishings when we married. We each had our own homes, and she had enough for four (+3 kids). The moving company wound up charging us extra when we moved from our "combined" house to the one I bought (where I now live) because they wound up moving "two households."

I continue to be amazed at the mysterious ways God works in our lives. And while I'm not a religious person, I have no other way to explain this.

Following a meeting I went to today, a woman I've known in the rooms since the beginning turned to me and asked, "Is WW having an affair with ____ ________ (OM)?"

After I picked myself off the floor, I said yes, and how did she know? I don't remember her exact answer to this, but she said immediately afterward, "I dated him for a few months two years ago" (this woman was widowed a number of years ago).

For the next two and a half hours, we spoke about OM. She confirmed everything I've suspected about him, and even gave me more information. While the two of them were dating, he insisted his D would be final "real soon." She remembers getting upset with him when another woman came up and thanked him for "helping her out the other night." When pressed, he said he'd gone to her place to "fix something," and she had wound up cooking him dinner and then they watched a movie. A real gem, huh?

He finally broke it off with her because since she was older than he (older than my W, who is also older than he) he told her he couldn't see the two of them together in 20 years, as she'd be too old (I told you he was a real gem).

She confirmed his shallowness and secretiveness, and also confirmed that although he makes good money, most of it goes to support his kids (he pays their cell phone bills, which alone has to cost hundreds!). Apparently his wife, who does NOT want a D can be quite vindictive; he had some sort of dalliance at work once and she showed up there to make an issue out of it. Apparently SHE was banned from his workplace as a result. She once called him to tell him a woman had called her to tell her to "stay away from OM!" Yeah, this guy is a real peach.

As I've said before, if he doesn't dump her first, she'll dump him later. If he dumps her though, it will be the first time she's been on the receiving end. He may have toned it down a bit after his manhood-trimming surgery; there's no way to tell.

However, WW has never once looked back in regret about the relationships she's left, so I don't anticipate the collapse of the A resulting in her wanting back into our M. But as I started out this post by saying, I continue to be amazed at the mysterious ways God works.

I moved all of my WH stuff into the garage except for his guns. I have now sold 3 of his rifles and have 2 more to sell. I told him to come get his stuff and have been telling him for months and he won't so I am now selling it off piece by piece. He won't even file for divorce and he is the one who wants one and I am not a storage unit. I would like to get rid of his 2 Pugs but I would like tham to go as a pair and I refuse to send them to a shelter because it isn't their fault. I did tell him that I would sell his stuff if he didn't come get it so he was warned. At one time I wouldn't have done that and I guess he is counting on that but I have changed enough since he left me that I am going through with it.

BW-me 44yrs
WH-him 47yrs
OW 26yrs with a 2 and now 4yr old and still married
married 20yrs
together 21yrs
DD 22yrs now
DD 19yrs
D-Day#1 discovered cell phone calls 6/30/2009
D-Day#2 7/26/2009
WH left 7/25/2009
WH moved in with OW 7/29/2009

Fred,

You WWs A has little chance of surviving long term. That would be what, a 5th marriage for her? They told us in D care group that 76% of second marriages fail, 87% of third marriages fail, and 98% of fourth marriages fail. I think that leaves about a snowball's chance in h3ll of a 5th one making it.

And Fred, I know that you hurt just like the rest of us, but put your logical hat on here. I know you love her, but do you really want to recover this marriage knowing that you were number 4 and here she is jumping ship again? I am not discounting your pain at all, but do you really have enough invested in this M to want to save it? Do you really believe that the two of you will make it another decade?