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I pray that your day will be peaceful, productive, and that at least one person in your life will visibly and verbally appreciate you. I pray that if there is love in your H's heart (and I think there is) that you will be able to see it today even if he doesn't speak it.

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pray


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Originally Posted by eeyoree
:I read over your potential letter to Mr. L4, and while I'll have to mull on the actual wording of what you want to say... I really think some sort of decision needs to be reached on this at this point. Pee or get off the pot, so they say. He needs to at least DECIDE if he wants to even attempt peeing! This is too much stress for you, him, and your kids this way.

You are correct that as a COUPLE you haven't tried everything to save your M. There are very blatant options that your H refuses to consider. And you can't "make" him. But you can say to him "I won't continue this M in this state, so either we get third party help, or its time for a separation" (that "modified plan B" that I've mentioned to you that Jennifer suggested to me. I thankfully never needed it, although was VERY close several times).

I'd be careful with the house and stuff like that also. Him asking about buying the house says to me that asking for a D was probably an emotional reaction on his part during your argument and not something that was well thought out. HOWEVER, he can't throw a D in your face and then ask you to buy a house days later, for pete's sake! I would think VERY carefully about buying a new house in the condition things are in right now- I really can't speak to that entirely because there's a lot that goes into buying a new house (financially, commutes, school districts, etc). And I don't know that I'd be so afraid to just outright TELL H that- that you're not comfortable buying a new house, etc, until your M is on more stable ground. That may be enough of a "message" to him right there.

I think at this point he's gonna stay in a state of limbo as long as he can, because moving either way for him is too painful. And while staying in the middle is painful too... the potential pain of the "unknown" is keeping him stuck. He needs a nudge to make a decision. Either way. This is slow torture.

I guess my point is I don't disagree with presenting some sort of option to him like you've suggested. In fact, I think it might be GOOD. And entering some sort of "modified plan B" if he won't agree to get third party help and exercise all of your options to fix your M. Not a D, just that you need to protect yourself from the hurt and pain of the limbo the M is in until he makes a decision. And he may decide not to recover... but at least then you can begin to heal... alone. Because I think its hard for you to even get PERSONAL recovery REALLY underway in this condition either.

My 2 cents.
E.
Make that 4 cents.

Since lovebusters, especially AO's drain the lovebank so heavily, even Dr. Harley will suggest separation.
This is a reply to a wife who's H has AO's ....
Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
I've consistently taken the position that angry outbursts not only destroys romantic love in marriage (it's a Love Buster), but it makes it impossible to find solutions to all marital problems. So it should not be tolerated. The one having the angry outburst is the only one who can do anything about it, so I usually recommend a separation if the one having the angry outbursts refuses to do what it takes to eliminate it. The only other reasonable alternative is divorce because it will cause a complete, and dangerous, breakdown of your relationship, and there's nothing you can do to stop it. It's up to him
I believe the LB's that Mr. L4 does, are not only from your A, they are deep seeded, the A can act as a reason to keep them up though.
I will pray for an outcome of Mr. L4 willing to try a last ditch effort to rebuild the M rather than D. I agree with the nudge.
My nudge for change, was realizing that I was about to lose my H and family.



The house thing ....... I wouldn't agree to such a financial investment with where your M future stands right now.
Fix the M first or come to a solution where neither of you are being hurt.
If you get on with buying this house, with moving expenses, new mortgage and unexpected costs, Mr. L4 may well use this new financial strain against marital counseling, like an MB weekend.


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I skirt round these things because I don't want to be projecting and seeing too much of mine in yours and because I know where I have come from.
But I can see clearly from these contributions that I am not the only one thinking the way I am thinking on yours

I needed your example and to see your hardwork to inspire me and to keep me going with the fall out form the A. You were certainly my inspiration in trying to heal my H - I knew the effort you were putting in.

I was disatisfied and J and I were still hurting each other until our big big blow up. Modified plan B worked well for us (touch wood). J didn't want to do it. We planned it with the help of you guys here, took advice on the amount of conact we should have and it has sent us leaps and bounds forwards on our recovery. It took some work to help us realise what would need to happen in order for us to come back together but we're clear now. I keep praying that we can remain focussed and keep our individual and joint goal in recovery in sight.

Remember this is about your boundary. You know well enough you can't change him. You can protect yourself from the hurt. If he's hurting too; if he knew about boundaries he could protect himself too. You know how it works.

When J and I separated and I really started to focus on my boundaries and how things made me feel, I suddenly became a lot more aware of his boundaries and was able to help him with his...

anyway I'm rambling. I'll stop now. YOu know we're all here for you...

love and prayers


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I don't know what it is that will get Mr L4 to change the unhealthy dynamic he is caught up in.

I know that he had a traumatic childhood in which, I think, abandonment was a theme. I know that he carries the pain of that with him today.

If L4 was to Plan B him with a separation, I worry that this will simply confirm to him all that he has learned, ie that those who love him, eventually run out of patience with him and leave him.

I worry that he will say something like "I knew you didn't love me, I knew you'd leave me 'cus thats what everyone does". I worry that he will not respond in a healthy way, or in a way that emotionally sound people would.

I worry about what hope he will have if L4 leaves.

I think if L4 does decide to go Plan B, she will have to be really careful how it is done.

Right now, his pain is his friend and his comfort blanket. L4 needs to find a way to give him this ultimatum in a way in which he won't feel he's being left behind or abandoned.

My mum often said to me "don't cut off your nose to spite your face" and I worry that Mr L4 will do just that.


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Originally Posted by Looking4
Here is what I am considering sending or saying to H:

"I don't think that we have had a good run at this. We have not done everything possible to try to rebuild this M. We haven't taken advantage of all the things that are available to us.

I agree that divorce is the best option if we are to continue these abusive ways of acting toward each other.

There is an option, however, that I feel may make a difference if we truly want to keep our family together. I would like to attend the Marriage Builders weekend. Unless we do that, I won't feel like we tried every effort to save our marriage for our children. We should be able to tell our kids that we did everything humanly possible to keep their family intact and protect them from divorce.

What do think about having a timeline before we make such a final decision? What do you think about us doing the Marriage Builders seminar and utilizing the Marriage Builders coaches over the next year. In a year's time, we see where we are. If you feel that we have made no progress, I won't fight you on divorce. Right now I don't want a divorce. I still believe there is much to save but I don't believe we can do it on our own. I feel very strongly that we need third-party help.

I've looked into the costs. It'll cost us $3,000 to $3,500 to go. MC once every two weeks with Dr. R would cost nearly $3,700 over a year's time.

I love you and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to repair the damage in our marriage."

Sorry L4, but this is a horrible letter. The idea is fine, but the content has so much negative captured within it.

I'm busy at work today so here is just a quick suggestion to build on.

Maybe something like;

Mr.L4
I feel we both need to give our marriage and our family the best possible solutions when our difficulties seem insurmountable. I feel the best solution for both is for us to remain married and to have a marriage that is filled with romantic love for each other. A marriage that builds on our mutual desires to be in love with each other and have a strong committed relationship for our family. We have many wonderful resources available at our figertips to make this happen.

Two possibilities that quickly come to my mind are MB & Dr. R. So, I've looked into the costs. MB would cost us approx. $3,000 to $3,500 to attend a MB Weekend including travel & lodging. This will include the one year program costs and full access to Dr. Harley and his staff of coaches. Also avail is, MC once every two weeks with Dr. R and would cost approx. $3,700 over a year's time.

I love you and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to build a future marriage based on caring and protecting each other till death do us part. I know you and I can have an exciting, romance filled marriage together and I desire this with all of my heart. I would love it if you would join me in committing to one of these ideas.



As far as the comment that neither of you felt you said anything wrong in your arguement...... MrRollieEyes

You might not have been wrong in your opinions, but the fact that it turned into an upsetting argument at all...... Well that kinda sums up the stupidity of it all, doesn't it.





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Have you read the articles from Dr. Harley of how one spouse can save a marriage?

If you haven't - please read them.

If you have - please RE-read them.

LINK





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I like TST's re-write.

I think L4 needs to have a "plan" if Mr. L4 says "no way Jose" to L4's letter-- which I suspect might happen. I have serious doubts she'll hand him the letter and all the sudden he'll enthusiastically agree when he's been fighting her on this tooth and nail for a year and a half. If I'm correct, she's presented this to him time and time again- and he's refused. So, what's different about it this time if there's not some sort of "I need to protect myself from this situation" involved? Either they can do it together, or she needs to remove herself from him in order to protect herself.

I'm not sure what else you can do if he says "no way Jose" other than some form of separation. I agree with Sere this needs to be carefully worded so it doesn't come across as abandonment. Make VERY CLEAR this isn't L4 abandoning him-- this is L4 protecting HERSELF.

There's a very real chance he'll react the way Sere suggested. That's something L4 needs to consider also. But, the way he's acting is not fair and not conducive to a healthy environment for ANYONE in their family. So, the fact that he "might" not react like a healthy person and "might" consider this abandonment again- even if it isn't- I don't think can be the sole reason for L4 NOT protecting herself. She can't keep putting herself and her family thru the wringer simply because of his emotional instability. Plus, its keeping him "stuck" in the instability by enabling him to stay in that place right now. There's no reason for him to end this limbo-hell. And I think after a year and a half, its safe to say he's probably not going to wake up tomorrow, next week, or even next month and say... "gee, today I'm gonna commit to my M, and be the best H I can be for L4 for the rest of our lives".





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Originally Posted by tst
Mr.L4
I feel we both need to give our marriage and our family the best possible solutions when our difficulties seem insurmountable. I feel the best solution for both is for us to remain married and to have a marriage that is filled with romantic love for each other. A marriage that builds on our mutual desires to be in love with each other and have a strong committed relationship for our family. We have many wonderful resources available at our figertips to make this happen.

Two possibilities that quickly come to my mind are MB & Dr. R. So, I've looked into the costs. MB would cost us approx. $3,000 to $3,500 to attend a MB Weekend including travel & lodging. This will include the one year program costs and full access to Dr. Harley and his staff of coaches. Also avail is, MC once every two weeks with Dr. R and would cost approx. $3,700 over a year's time.

I love you and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to build a future marriage based on caring and protecting each other till death do us part. I know you and I can have an exciting, romance filled marriage together and I desire this with all of my heart. I would love it if you would join me in committing to one of these ideas.
I do like how this is worded L4.

Sere, I understand what you are saying. The best scenario would be for Mr.L4 to agree to counseling of some sort. I pray for that.
I'm not encouraging separation,(I was just pointing out that Dr. Harley does not advise against it certain situations), but that may very well be what Mr. L4 decides over MC. Still, better than D, which is what he has already mentioned.
Agree that it is important how L4 comes across with her feelings and boundaries.
I really don't think that he wants a D, just like E said, I think it was said out of emotion and not well planned thinking. Still, it came from him and it is maybe
something that is in the back of his mind, and may come up again and again when conflict arises. dontknow

I don't think a separation would be like a Plan B at all. I would think it would be more like ST's situation.


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With you E.

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I don't think I'm in disagreement with you all, that it might be time for L4 to give an untimatum. I have long stated here that L4 should not tolerate working on this M alone indefinitely.

Mr L4 needs to make a decision one way or another, and as E says, it is very unlikely that he is going to wake up tomorrow morning and ask L4 to go on the MB weekend.

I suppose what I am saying is that in his current state of mind, he will see a separation as permanent and he may well be so self destructive as to completely detach from L4, leaving little or no possibility of reconciliation.

Let's not forget that we are all MB educated and can see the bigger picture. He cannot. J, ST's H read along here and therefore understood what their separation was about and understood their marital goal. Mr L4 does not have that.

He is very emotionally immature. Stuck in the past betrayals of trust by the people in his life who he believed should be most trustworthy.

I am just wondering if there are any other ultimatums that L4 could use in order to "force" this issue. Maybe there aren't any and if that is the case, then because something has to be done to change things, then L4 really has no alternative.

Whatever you do L4, you know we're all behind you 100%.


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Sere, I hope you didn't feel I was taking sides against you, becasue I certainly don't disagree with you. kiss

Originally Posted by L4
Please just trust me that I can't do that again with anyone, let alone with the man I'm married to. I believe he feels the same.

SO this is the turning point L4. This is where you have to do whatever it takes to protect that boundary - "I can't do that again." What are your EPs to protect that boundary?

Although J read here - he didn't really believe. He didn't like MB, I think he was jsut checking up on me. He thought, possibly thinks I'm being brainwashed... s'pose that should be have been brainwashed.

But I think because he did read here, he was reassured that I was doing the separation for me in the hope that the M might come together too. I had to constantly reassure him that this wasn't me gently saying it was over. He also knew very clearly the conditions of return and we were able to work on them together. He was ver angry at the suggestion of separation but over the weeks before it happened he got used to the idea as we discussed why it had to happen and what we hope to acieve by it.

I guess if L4 suggests it she will be met with the same anger and panic and despair that I was, but I also think that she will be able to reassure him that her ultimate goal is for a happy M and family even if her priamry goal is to protect her.

Still praying - and I'm calling on that angel that came to me in the church yard back in the summer, asking him to come and visit you both.





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Originally Posted by staytogether
Sere, I hope you didn't feel I was taking sides against you, becasue I certainly don't disagree with you. kiss

No, of course not Stay. I just wanted to clarify my post.

Love ya ST...


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Originally Posted by sere
I don't think I'm in disagreement with you all,
No, I didn't take it like that, I think that we are on the same page and we have seen the struggles on both L4 and Mr.L4's side. (as best we can through L4)


Quote
I suppose what I am saying is that in his current state of mind, he will see a separation as permanent and he may well be so self destructive as to completely detach from L4, leaving little or no possibility of reconciliation.

Let's not forget that we are all MB educated and can see the bigger picture. He cannot. J, ST's H read along here and therefore understood what their separation was about and understood their marital goal. Mr L4 does not have that.
You bring up valid concerns and I agree. Do you think he will still feel this way given that L4 has an alternative, a plan for both of them to stay M'd ???
I think too like ST, he needs to be reassured that whatever route happens, the end goal is to be in a loving M. Not D.



Last edited by Vittoria; 01/06/10 03:31 PM.

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L4 Have you talked to Steve Harley about your situation currently? What does he suggest?

Personally I don't agree at all with the thinking that you need to be considering an ultimatum, seperation, Plan B, or any of the risky steps being mentioned. I think it's way out of line....Unless you are being physically abused in some way, which I don't see being the case.

L4 I know you have made many changes, but I think you are still missing the boat on PROTECTING your H. IMO, Way to many LB's still.

My wife still has extremely difficult days, triggers and times she withdraws.... I consider this normal due to my A .... And this is with her being 100% onboard..... and after 2+ years of solid recovery.

With this in mind, I think you are expecting more from H than you should.


I really don't care about your H's tough childhood or his being emotionally immature.... Personally I think these are DJ's that are being unfairly projected on to him and need to be removed from your thinking.

You, L4 are the spouse that abused your H, behaved emotionally immature, and deserve the curb as much as I do. A little more than a year after you drop the bomb of your A's, expecting H to be in better shape is un-realistic and is a DJ as well.

I'm not saying suck it up...... I'm saying to work the MB program from your side of the marriage for a few years and see what happens. As of yet, I haven't seen you avoid LB's in your marriage for more than a few weeks..... I'm talking about a solid track record of NO LB's for a few years combined with extraordinary care.







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twoxfour over


{{{{{{{L4}}}}}}}}}





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I don't think I have ever seen a post to a FWW that has made my blood boil quite so much. I'll sleep on my response (hopefully, if my pulse stops racing and bp comes down)

L4,Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. Clear the guilt you have assumed for your Hs past (pre As). Once your boundaries are secure it will be hard to AO and LB. hug



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L4:

I have to say, that you do not have to post much to get alot of attention.

Many, Many people here are concerned about you and your struggle. And about the things you are trying to do to fix the many problems in your marriage.

I stated not to far back that this marriage will turn on what your H does.

I will paraphase your original Thread title as "Should I tell?"

Knowing what you know NOW, would you go back to that time where your BH didn't KNOW? As bad as your marriage is NOW, how was it THEN?

From that point, you have grown, learned much about your self, but your BH is still....where? We don't know. tst pointed out that you shouldn't have much expectation for him to be very far along right now, and there is some truth to that, however, the reality is, is that you would like to see SOMETHING, anything, consistent, so that you can feel more secure in this marriage.

I wish I could tell you when that might happen. It might happen after the MB weekend, it might happen the day you move out of the house, it might....

Look at OurHouse. She finally decided after years of status quo, to finally implement some changes, and to see where it goes in her marriage if she just cut loose from the old ways of doing things.

Your still stuck in the same dynamic.

Argument...(which either of you can't seem to realize why is spins so out of control... peculiar that) then SF.

That seems to set up a pattern of "I can abuse you, then still have SF with you..." and that isn't a good pattern. I know your trying to meet his EN for SF, as well as yours. And SF can, and DOES, make many men feel emotional closer to thier wives. And when your H feels desire for you "he grabbed me", then that is a better feeling than one of being rejected. When phrased that way, "he grabbed me" it seems that it may have been a place of desire for him, but it certainly wasn't like that for you.

L4, I think the MB weekend could do wonders for your marriage. Your H may not be able to open up to you. That key needs to be turned by someone or something else. Once that key is turned, I believe that many of the issues your husband has will come flooding out. And that would be a good thing.


(((L4))) and (((MrL4))
LG



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Originally Posted by tst
My wife still has extremely difficult days, triggers and times she withdraws.... I consider this normal due to my A .... And this is with her being 100% onboard..... and after 2+ years of solid recovery.

With this in mind, I think you are expecting more from H than you should.
But, tst, does she say this kind of thing?

"He said he thinks we don't belong together and our time together is over. He said we had a good run but it's time to call it quits."

L4's H has been saying this kind of thing - not often, but consistently, since D Day. This is not about her expecting him to be in better shape. It is about her not being able to keep trying with a spouse whose LB is closed.

Mr L4 has never decided on recovery; indeed he seems to have stated many times that he is staying physically, but will not engage in the marriage. Do you give the advice above knowing that fact, or are you comparing him to your wife, who has a very different attitude?

You know that your wife is onboard, so that must help you to understand and cope with the extremely difficult days, the triggers and the times when she withdraws. You know that she feels badly today but that tomorrow, she will dig deep and try to move on, because she is committed to your marriage.

Doesn't it make a difference that you know she wants to rebuild your marriage and stay with you? Doesn't it make a difference that Mr L4 says that it is time to call it quits?


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SugarCane,

My point had to do with length of time.

I have no problem seeing that Mr. L4 is flip-flopping back and forth. He's in a go-away-come-here state. I don't consider this to be unusual for someone that has experienced the pain of their spouse's adultery. I'm actually floored at how fast people dismiss this, like he just needs to get over it or something. I'm just as floored at how fast people suggest L4 move to separation or Plan B. This is the surest way, IMO, to end the marriage.

My thoughts about the house are contrary to others here as well. I think moving would be a brilliant idea. He may associate the house he lives in and everything around him with the affair. The house may be a constant trigger. I think the best thing in the world that could happen is for them to move. It would eliminate one of the possible obstacles to recovery.

My biggest gripe here is L4's constant DJs. You cannot pull a withdrawn BS back into the marriage when you LB. It just won't happen. NEVER. She needs to fully work her side of the marriage for a long period of time to start seeing some results. That has not happened.






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Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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