Yeah, I still cannot bellieve my first WW, who was magna cum laude in our law school class(not as good looking as me, however ) could let that escape her crap infused mouth.

Yes, he advises separation if a spouse is being abused physically or emotionally, which I agree with. In "When To Call It Quits", he also recommends separation when a spouse demands "unconditional love" and refuses to meet emotional needs of their spouse. I don't agree with him on his approach in that situation. It can't stand up to biblical scrutiny, IMO. But that's another subject. I'm talking specifically about cases of infidelity, EA or PA, when the WS won't make amends. He states very clearly in Chapter 6 of SAA that apologies and statements of remorse - a common form of amends - while desirable are not necessary for a "full marital recovery to take place after an affair." In fact, he talks Jon, the betrayed husband, out of requiring an apology as a condition for reconciliation.


Because I already know what he has to say, based on SAA and his other writings. You mentioned your unresolved anger due to the lack of amends by your first WH. I wanted to know what you thought, not Dr. Harley.

Yeah, I remember reading that deal about not requiring an apology. It seems to me that it is a very stunted person who would cheat and not apologize. I cannot imagine how the marriage would flourish with that type of festering sore. It would surely breed resentment. Clearly, there is no acknowledgement of the pain or damage.
Janis Abtram Spring talks about this type of acknowledgement as being critical to forgiveness.

I have possibly the greatest, most loving H in the world, and if I had not fully repented and apologized, I'd be divorced. H would not have stuck around for that.

Yeah, no apology makes no sense at all to me. If there is remorse, there has got to be an apology.

Lurioosi2, did your H make that clear to you or are you assuming it? Not disputing you, just genuinely curious. Do you feel your H expecting an apology is justifiable? From what I can tell, if he were counseling with Dr. Harley, your H likely would have been advised to drop that condition and to move toward recovery with or without an apology.

Really? That blows my puny mind. I just cannot imagine he would tell someone who cheated that there was no need to apologize and make just compensation.

Zelmo,

I don't want to misrepresent Dr. Harley, but from my personal contact with him and from the example I used from his book SAA, that is what I understand his position to be. He says apologies are desirable and good and he would like wayward spouses to do it, but that apologies are not necessary for recovery. To my dismay, he also puts equal emphasis on the betrayed spouse apologizing.

From Surviving An Affair, p. 84:


Here's how he described the wayward wife, Sue, on p. 83.


Dr. Harley then goes on to tell how he advised this husband to drop his condition of an apology before he would attempt to reconcile. Later, he writes of focusing on the present and future and not mentioning the affair, regardless of whether the wayward spouse has apologized or not.

According to the letter written by Jon and included in the book, Sue never apologized. He says in the letter that their love is restored. It's only my opinion, but I have to wonder just how complete this betrayed husband's recovery is when his cheating wife won't even apologize.

He didn't say specifically that he would leave if I didn't apologize, but because of our beliefs, his nature, and other things he said it was clear that me seeing fully what I had done and owning it was absolutely necessary. I suppose he might have stayed in spite of it, but I don't think there is any way we would have truly recovered. To me, owning it means...well, owning it. And that includes humbling yourself and articulating how sorry you are.

I admit it has been awhile since I have read SAA, and I wouldn't want to muddy any MB waters, but for us, the repentance was imperative. In fact, even if H had walked out the door and never looked back, repentance was necessary, because I sinned.

otter, what are you doing? Just so the other posters know, otter and his wife are counseling with Dr Harley and Kim <?> and they have told him to stop demanding an apology from his wife. [otter wants Dr Harley to force her to apologize I guess] Otter is not happy with the advice he is getting so he is now trying to recruit posters here to come out against Dr Harley.

Otter, what is the point of taking this argument here?

otter, you have to keep in mind that my XH is still with the OW. Surely you are not trying to draw an equation between a situation like mine, where the WS is still a WS and is STILL in his affair [he lives with his OW] and your situation, where there was nothing more than email communication with an old lover?

otter, funny how you left off the following paragraphs that explain his strategy - on page 84:


<snip> to the bottom of page 84


So otter, are you saying what you want from your wife is an insincere apology?

I'm discussing the topics that have been brought up in this thread. You are the one who brought up the issue - from your own experience- of lingering resentment and anger when a wayward spouse doesn't apologize and make amends.


And how exactly do you know what their counsel to me has been?


No, I do not. I have not asked him to and don't expect him to. I repeat, I have NEVER asked Dr. Harley, Steve, or Kim to "force" my W to apologize for anything. However, without any demands from me, Steve Harley was very clear on the phone and at MB weekend that there is much more my W can do to help us recover from her actions.


I admit I am not a Harley sycophant and never have been. But your accusations are untrue. I am happy with a great many things Dr. Harley has advised, particularly regarding my W's ongoing independent behavior and lack of EPs. Don't accuse me of trying to "recruit" posters to "come out" against Dr. Harley. I am simply discussing the relevant issue of recovery when a spouse doesn't make amends - which you brought up from your own experience. You've already let us know the effect the lack of an apology and lack of amends has had on your recovery from your first H's affair. I thought Dr. Harley's contention that recovery can happen without an apology or remorse was relevant to your post. I will repeat that most posters here who are BSs say that they could not recover without some kind of apology and amends from their WS.

I have not demanded an apology from my W in many months. I NEVER discuss the past any more, specifically her emails with her ex. I know it is unlikely I will ever get an apology, but I continue to work this program in spite of it. I come here to discuss things that I can't bring up with her. No, I don't agree with everything Dr. Harley writes or advises. Scripture is the only written word that can be trusted carte blanche. I do not believe Dr. Harley is infallible and that every word uttered from his mouth is gospel. That kind of hero worship and reverence for an individiual, no matter how brilliant they are, is dangerous in my opinion. But I am willing to endure what I don't agree with to get from my W what I want - openness & honesty, transparency, care, protection, etc.



There is no "argument", Melody. You are making assumptions because of your knee-jerk protectiveness of Dr. Harley. Besides, posters here are smart enough to make up their own minds whether Dr. Harley's advice is good or not. For the record, I think most of his advice and methods for marital recovery are good, otherwise I wouldn't be here, wouldn't have spent $2,000+ on an MB weekend, and wouldn't be participating in the followup program.

Relax, Mel. Dr. Harley's books and counsel can stand up to a little criticism and analysis from little ol' me.

It's sad that posters have to beware of "muddying any MB waters" if their experience differs from the MB party line, but thank you for being honest. Your experience proves the point I was trying to make: Recovery is difficult if not nearly impossible without some expression of remorse or apology when a person betrays their spouse.

Am I the only one here who would stop and watch if their X-Spouse was burning on the side of the road?

I think I'd giggle about it for years.

And far as watching POSOM burning on the side of the road, I'd siphon fuel from my own vehicle to accelerate the flames, even if it meant me running out of fuel and freezing to death.

otter, otter, otter. And you are the one who is ridiculously equating an ongoing affair with your own situation. That is silly, otter, and you know it. The lingering resentment comes from the fact that my XH is still with the OW. He has never made any amends. The same can't be said for your situation. Your wife is with you and from your own accounts is committed to your marital recovery.




otter, one doesn't have to be a "Harley sycophant" to see what you are trying to pull here by equating the non recovery of a 10 year AFFAIR with your wife's one-day email communication with an old lover. Amends does not inherently mean an "apology." Amends can mean agreeing to affair proof a marriage and committing to meeting the BS's needs. The lack of an apology does not = no amends.


Thank goodness no one here is doing that. But I would point out that he has saved thousands of marriages using these principles, you have saved NONE. Hopefully you will consider that when you nit pick and find fault, otter. Does it make any sense to nit pick the success story when you want what he has? I don't think so.


Can the same be said about you, otter? Can you withstand a little criticism and analysis from little ol' me? Because here is the deal, otter, I think it makes more sense to scrutinize the guy with the screwed up marriage, rather than the one who has a good marriage. You ok with a little scrutiny?

otter, the recognition that Dr Harley knows how to save marriages, and you DON'T is not "hero worship" of an "infallible" being. It is just common sense. He has a good marriage and has saved thousands. You only know how to screw up a marriage. Isn't it a little irrational to scrutinize the success story rather than the not so successful story?

You are trying to make the case that a marriage can't recover unless one spouse makes an apology, but you have been told by Dr Harley this is not true. In fact, he has stated that an insincere apology is worthless. Do you disagree with that advice? Do you have evidence that Dr Harley is WRONG about this? If so, I would like to see your evidence.

Though I know it's more than unlikely that ottert will listen to anything I say on this matter, I'm still gonna buck it up and say it...Ottert, one of the main points that you seem to be missing is that you will likely receive an apology from your wife once she is IN LOVE with you [which is the whole point of the MB program]...However, if you continue to post the way you are here - where your wife most certainly can come and read, that is unlikely to happen...People are very unlikely to feel and express remorse towards someone that they are in a battle of wills with...Ottert, it wouldn't matter if you got every human on earth to agree with and validate your feelings, unless your wife agrees [and she won't if she's not in love with you] what will you really have? Certainly not what you claim you want - a recovered marriage...

I understand that it's hard, but I really believe that you are gonna have to get over the notion that every thought, feeling and emotion that you have needs to be expressed...As politely as I can I am telling you to tie your tongue [fingers] in a knot and work the program...

Mrs. W

Nope. Although I used to say I would not even piss on her to put it out. But its been over 3-years so I probably would piss a little on her. Not enough to put it out though.



That's why they make video cameras. Memories to last a lifetime.




You could call me and I would come pick you up Pariah. I could bring a few more cans of gas.


But I'm not bitter.

Mel, I am not equating my situation to anything.

Mel, you are the one who, just before I locked my thread, said the following (I am trying to be as accurate with your words as possible, but the thread is lost.)

Ottert's wife thinks her ex-boyfriend emailing her was a "gift from God" and an "answer to prayer". How do you recover from that?

You repeatedly told my wife on her thread that she was gaslighting me and emotionally abusing me by refusing to own up to her actions and apologize for them. You also condemned those who tried to compare the pain of various levels of infidelity.

You said all those things and more, Mel. Why are you now belittling what I have gone through? You're characterizing it as a "one-day email" exchange? I can't believe I'm doing this, but I am not going to let you misrepresent what I went through because you feel the need to defend Dr. Harley.

First of all, it was four days and approximately 20 emails between them, many of them very long and detailed (two and three pages printed). The only reason it stopped when it did is because I caught them and demanded that it stop. She told her ex-lover she still thinks of him and invited him to say "what you always wished you could." So that she could apologize to him, she told him that she had prayed for 20 years that they would accidentally run into each other like the two ex-lovers in the Dan Fogelberg song "Same Old Lang Syne". She then quoted the first two lines of the song "Met my old lover in the grocery store/Snow was falling Christmas eve." (How do you think I felt every time I heard that song the whole month of December?). He called her by the pet name he used to call her when they were dating. He told her that "part of me still loves you and always will." She didn't reciprocate with similar words, but continued to email him despite his inappropriate comments.

She told me when I confronted her and told her I knew about their conversation that it was none of my business and that she would only stop when she felt like it, that I wasn't going to "control" her. She told me that she still had a "place in her heart" for her old lover because he was a "huge part" of her life. She said to me "I'm glad you got hurt! You needed to be hurt!" For more than a year, she told me she had done nothing wrong and she would NEVER say that she had. The fact that she kept a necklace that he gave her more than 25 years ago and told me it was her "favorite necklace" didn't help matters any.

As you stated in my old thread, she still contends that their secret, deceptive and inappropriate email exchange was "an answer to prayer." I also learned in the aftermath of all this that she had been infatuated with a pastor at our church, while at the same time she went to this family's home and helped them pack and clean their house. She ironed this man's shirts and folded his laundry. She contends there was also nothing risky or inappropriate about this.

The above only scratches the surface, but it's enough to refute your "one-day email communication" tripe.

Yes, amends can mean many things besides an apology, including "agreeing to affair proof a marriage and committing to meeting the BS's needs." Do you think I'd still be suffering and coming here needing to vent if those things were being done in my case? I can assure they are not, despite two years of misery, $2000 spent on an MB weekend and two months of trying to work this program.

You may criticize and nit-pick me all you like, Mel. But what I won't let you do without a response from me is minimize the pain I have suffered by my wife's betrayal because you don't like something I said about Dr. Harley.