I have a very complicated situation I desperately need advice on. can any one help me?

Zelmo, your hilarous, thanks for the laugh.... I might of actually smiled today....

AIL,

I am glad that you understand what I am saying to you. Let me ask you a question, do you want to be married to a man of little or no HONOR? Do you really want him influencing your children? Until he restores his honor and takes his vows seriously, you must realize that he is not worthy of your love.

You can give it and show him you love him, but it is simply a gift, not something you two share anymore. Can you come to a point of sharing love and life? yes you can, but he must step up and regain his honor. Pepperband insistented her H show honor and when he went to relatives and apologized for his behavior and the pain he had inflicted she knew he had started down the path of living as an honorable man, until then or unless he did this, he was toast in her eyes.

PEP, step in and tell AIL about your story.

AIL, first you must step back and calm down. Then you must develop a plan, and here is where this site can really help you. As you read about emotional needs, EN's, as you read about the love bank, LB, and love busters, also LB's, as you read the four rules for a good marriage, and the policies of radical honesty and joint agreement, you will begin to see how to construct your plan.

The folks here will help you. The fact that you have also been in the military and police force, should help you understand the need for a plan... a well thought out plan. Until you have the plan in place, step back a bit. Give yourself a break and realize you have the tools, the resources, and the guts to do this, it just takes time and patience. And I mean patience with yourself and your H.

Also realize that recovery of this marriage typically takes two years. Your marriage might recover a bit faster, but not likely. So we are talking years here, not months or days. Even if your H suddenly regained his honor and his love for you, it will take years. Why? You have been damaged and he has damaged himself in ways he cannot see nor you. If you read on this site for long and read say...Mrs Wonderings posts or those of other FWW, former wayward wives, or FWH's you will see deep guilt and remorse and while you might like to see this, you will soon realize it hinders their recovery as well.

This is a multilayered problem even in the best of situations. You are just starting the process so have patience, but get a plan. The information is here and in Harley's books.

God Bless,

JL

Yes, I do need to step back. I think I was under the "desperation tarp" and felt if I did, he would leave me. for awhile that was the scariest thing inthe world to me. How quickly I went from strong, educated woman, to scared, broken wife. I will start to think about my plan. Does anyone recommend starting with the Emotional Needs Inventory? I am going to discuss this with him tonight after work and also about spending the extra money (who has extra money right now) to talk with Harvey in telephone counseling sessions. Did anyone do this? How many sessions did it take with him and how frequent? Worried that I might break the bank with that committment. We have the money but I dont see him springing for it at that rate...$200 an hour. Any thoughts?

AIL,
Sorry you are here. Below is a link to what Harley wrote to a wayward wife on what it takes to recover a marriage. I would print it out and give it to your WH.

Harley response to wayward wife: rules to recover

And here is link to Plan A&B and Pepper's Carrot & Stick of Plan A. This should help you start Plan A.

Carrot & Stick
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1640788#Post1640788

Plan A & Plan B

Gg

AIL,

Sit down with your H tonight and discuss the cost of getting a divorce. Consider the lawyer fees, the transportation of hauling kids back and forth, child support, etc.

Then tell me if 10-20 sessions with the Harleys sounds expensive to you or your H.

You see what your H must realize that you only win if he wins. He only wins if you win. He has to regain his honor AND his love. Both can be accomplished.

I would recommend that you start with the four rules for a good marriage, then go to his two policies, and finally start to read and understand your own needs and then his. He needs to understand his own needs and then yours.

If you two agree to try and meet one anothers needs, here is where the policy of radical honesty and joint agreement are really really important. They are negotiating tools and they will allow you two to negotiate a win-win result.

Harley is a strong believer and so am I, that a spouse making a "sacrifice" for the family is often a bad idea because it leads to resentment. If someone must make a "sacrifice" the other person must acknowledge it, and then the two of them decide how this sacrifice can be at least compensated in a reasonable fashion. Sometimes one cannot balance a sacrifice, say a kidney, but often what the other person needs simply a "thank you" in form of words and deeds.

Learn to negotiate, that is what those two policies are about. Then you must learn what to negotiate about, that is what the EN's are about. Then you must learn what are love busters because as you read Harley's four rules for a good marriage, you will see the rule of protection. That translates into removing love busters.

This stuff is sooooo simple AIL, it really is, but it sure is not easy.

Let me end this post with a "joke".

There is this cowboy. He is sitting on a big bull at a rodeo. He is wrapping and rewrapping the lead, trying to get it just right and tight.

His friend is steadying him and the bull and telling his friend. "Ok, this is really simple, you have the lead, you stay on this bull 8 seconds and the championship is all yours."

Two old cowboys are sitting on the fence near the pen with their boots hooked over the railing. One turns to the other and says, "That young fella over there is about to learn the difference between simple and easy."

AIL, you AND your H need to learn the difference between simple and easy. This stuff is simple but it is NOT easy.

Learn the program, work the program and develop a plan for you and your H to reach a win-win situation. He can love you again. He is in what is called withdrawal. In this stage, which by the way is very very normal, he will have no feelings for you and only think of OW. Affairs are a lot like drug addictions. Harley even talks about that since in his lifetime of experience he has dealt with drug addicts.

In fact he will not work with someone who has another addiction, alcohol, drugs, etc. Why? One addiction is tough enough, multiple ones make working on the marriage very very difficult.

Your H has been addicted to OW. His brain endorphins have spiked when he is around her, and yes he really will suffer withdrawal when the affair is over. It is all normal.

God Bless,

JL

alone,

You repeatedly mention being worried about the cost of good marital counseling.

Can I just tell you, you can drop 2 grand on marriage counseling, and it still won't even be in the ballpark of what a divorce lawyer will cost you by yourself. (I know, because I consulted with a family lawyer back when there was a chance I might get deposed in the divorce case of the woman whom I had an affair with.) Not all counselors are good; but a good one is by far the better investment if you think there's a chance to save your marriage.

AND if you can prove you husband has been cheating, a divorce will probably cost him more than it'll cost you, financially. In all, the two of you together could easily spend 10 grand on getting divorced, and that's just the lawyers' fees, before a single support check has been written. That kind of dough will buy a lot of marriage counseling, with a lot left over for vacations, romantic getaways, babysitters, dinners out, birthday & valentine & anniversary gifts, etc., that all could help your marital relationship. Does that clarify anything?

Glove- Your absolutely right and as you and others have mentioned I sat down and talked with WH last night and went into detail about the costs of a divorce and the cost of counseling with Steve Harvey. The counseling comes out ahead anyway you look at it. I am not an insane penny pincher, just so you know, I am actually a marriage/family counselor myself and my going rate is nowhere near what his fees are so that was kind of where the shock and awe came into play. But--- your all correct, there is no price on finding something that can help us out of this desperate hole we are in now. I think my WH thought that since this was my area of expertise that I could get us through it on my own, but the reality there is that it is not fair to me to be the counselor in my own marriage, I need to have the comfortability to be able to just be the wife.... it took awhile to let that sink in instead of thinking I had to just "fix" everything. So get your prayers out because I scheduled an appointment for next week, after talking about it with WH last night. Hope is in the air.... for what ever may come.

Your H sounds like a proud man. (By the way, abbreviations are here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2282858&page=1 )

I was a type-A guy (still am in lots of ways) ... not military myself (I actually punched out of a service academy), but I've served my country in other ways, and have always kind of had that mindset, or at least, that self-image -- honor, service, duty, etc. Upstanding husband, father, good provider, active in my church. All that stuff. It's ingrained in us to see ourselves that way; and when we slip up badly, the chasm between our self-image and our actual conduct is huge, and spirit-crushing. Back when I acknowledged to myself that I was getting into an affair, before it even got physical, I was too proud to even admit to my wife that I had any feelings for the other woman. That pride kept me from admitting vulnerability. It kept me from opening up to my wife, when doing so might've given me the external accountability that I needed. It kept me from voicing needs of mine that weren't being met. It kept me from looking critically at areas in which I wasn't being the best husband I could be in meeting my wife's needs. Had I not been so bound-up by pride -- selfish pride -- then maybe I could've stopped before hitting bottom & almost trashing my marriage. Indeed, pride goeth before the fall.

It sounds like your husband might just want to forget all of this happened. That's not gonna get you to where you need to be as a couple. He needs to find something that isn't touted a lot in the military or police forces, or even in many churches (despite the lip-service): Humility. It takes humility to admit you've screwed up BAD. It takes humility for a man to face himself in the mirror & acknowledge that he lied to, deceived, and crushed the heart of the very person whom he once swore an oath to love/honor/cherish/protect. It takes humility to say "I was responsible for this", and to agree to go to counseling -- counseling, my God, that's like asking for HELP -- and guys like us, we're supposed to be self-reliant. We think we're above needing help, or a wake-up call, or anything like that. It takes humility to face your friends & your boss and admit that you did something like this. It takes humility to walk back into a church when you feel like you're so devalued by your own sin that you're not good enough to even cast a shadow over the threshhold. At times, it can seem easier to bury one's head in the sand & go numb.

I'm troubled by the picture of your begging him to stay. He ought to have been begging you not to throw him out. Yeah, he needs to work as hard as you. This can work if your hearts are both in it, but he needs to drop the pride, and find that there's a measure of liberation, and even strength, in getting humble. He's got to be humble enough to put your pain above his sense of shame. I'm not sure what to tell you -- sounds like he still has a lot of questions to answer -- but there are a lot of BSs on this forum who can speak better to what you're going through. Hang in there.

I am the wife of a cop, too.




Truer words have never been typed.

AIL,

You are wise. You know the old saying about doctors that treat themselves right?

I liked GO's statement about humility. It used to be part of the military and it used to be part of the police. Where I live I don't see much humility in the police and lot more if you don't think I can't screw over just watch, mentality. Heck, they are marching around with stars on their collars like they are commanding generals around here.

My point is to reinforce GO's point, humility is required. I also think that you and your H will find Steve H very interesting. As you can tell from this site, there is order, there are plans, there is little tolerance for waffling.

One of the reasons I liked this site when I first encountered it years ago, was that it seemed to follow one of my favorite quotes.



I'm glad you two are going to seek help together. I am sure you know that this is a big step.

Also something you might mention to your H because he is a guy, a cop and ex-military. The Harley's refer to their counseling as "coaching" rather than counseling. He should understand "coaching" and bet less threatened by it, as I would be he has had a coach or two in his life.

God Bless,

JL

Yes, I think humility is very important afte something like this has occured in a relationship. I also think there are people out there that may never be able to reach this point and I am just hoping my WH can get there. I am anxious for our apt with Steve. They send you questionnaires to fill out on each other before your apt and so I did mine and then asked him to do his and he did-- no questions asked. Then he spent about the nexthour reading the articles on this site by Dr. Harvey and about the Basic Concepts. At one point I came over to see what in the world could be so interesting and he told me it made him nervous to look over his shoulder while he was reading it. Hurt at first, I feel oodly good about that interaction.... what are your thoughts? He obvoiusly was getting something out of what he was reading. Later he came and sat on the couch where I was watching tv and just stared at me for a bit. I knew he was and when I finally looked over I asked him what he was looking at and if something was wrong. He said "just looking, no nothings wrong". Hmmm? Breakthrough??? I dunno... then after putting the kids to bed he came and sat right next to me and held my hand. Maybe he is understanding a little bit what kind of woman I really am to go through this and come out still wanting him more than ever.

AIL, you can't control or know in advance what he'll do, and I know it must be so scary not to know. (In fact, I probably don't know the half of it.) What you CAN do is model the sort of grace, composure, assurance & character that he KNOWS is what he wants to be with. As you say, remind him of the kind of woman you are.

True story: On the day I confessed to my wife & blew her world apart, in the span of about 5 minutes she said 2 things to me that left me blown-away:

-- When I begged her to keep me, she sat & looked at me for a long time, and then quietly answered me, "Do it again and you're out on your a$$." In other words, she was giving me a second chance.

-- When I asked her if she wanted me to sleep in the guest room or in our bed, she thought for a moment & said I could sleep in our bed, and when I asked her if she was sure, she answered, "Where else should my husband sleep?"

So through her hurt, great though it was, she projected such an unbelievable combination of toughness, compassion, love, grace, rock-solid character and sense of being in-control (although I'm sure she didn't feel in-control), that I knew all over again that this is THE person I want to be with, over any other.

I dont think this is ever going to end. WH told me last night he doesnt want to have sex which started another conversation about how he wishes he felt the same way towards me that he does the OW. Then he tels me he I am attractive but not to him and not like he wants the OW, and he doesnt feel like that is going to change. A few days things are great, back to sex, and life and then this crap again. I dont know why anyone could hurt someone who loves them so much repeatedly like this. Please God help me get throughthis pain, Iam really struggling to make it, here. Anyone??? When does this part go away? Or will it? PLease help...

AIL - you will be on this pendulum for a while. It's awful, I know. I went through it, as has everyone else on this site.

There aren't a lot of folks here today, so I don't know if one of the vets will jump in with some good advice. All I can tell you is that I just kept telling myself that the woman (WW) who was doing this to me - causing all the pain - was NOT my wife. The man causing all the pain to you is not your husband. But, he will act this way as long as the A is going on, and he obviously is still deep into it.

He told you you're not attractive to him? AIL, are you sure he's not still in contact with her? Are you snooping?

Your WH is in The Fog right now. He'll be saying some pretty whacky things. He is in withdrawal from the addiction of the OW. This is going to go on for awhile. I'm glad to hear that you're going to counsel with the Harleys. Do not give up hope - you can save your M!

Yes I fell into the desperation trap as well and I am having the most difficult time getting out. My WH had been gone in Iraq for a year and came home for a few days and then left to a friends wedding; the day I expected him home he called and said he wasn't coming back. I too went from the strong, educated woman to the scared broken wife desperate to do anything to turn it around. Unfortunately I hadn't found this site yet. I Believe my desperation drove him further away and eased any doubts he had about leaving. I got divorce papers a month later and now it's been two months and the divorce judgement is a week or so away. So, my desperation really created more problems and more desperation; I'm so very sad, it feels like my soul is being ripped apart, so you aren't alone. Just don't make the mistake I did. It's not gone, hang in there and focus.

Expects,

I don't know much about your situation, but I do know that your desperation did not drive him away. You became desperate AFTER he left. Have you confirmed he is having an affair? Have you spoken with him at all to see why he is doing this?

AIL, the don't call what you are going through the rollercoaster for nothing. It will be a very bumpy ride so hang on. I will NOt be attracted to you while in withdrawal from OW. He will not be attracted to you if he is still in contact with OW. Please hang in there, this is just the beginning.

God Bless,

JL

Just, I know my desperation stemmed from his leaving, but I feel he also used it as justification to move further away. He denies any affair. He says he doesn't want this to be about another woman, yet he lies constantly and is very secretive. He places all the blame on me and is exaggerating events and fabricating things; I believe to gain empathy from friends and to enable him to warmly welcome the OW once our divorce is final. He just can't wait.