WOW...all this wonderful gentleness makes me

This reminds me of the BH who would be happy if his WW went on to marry POSOM when he died. The fog is thick.

BRaven: Sometimes I think some of the anger on this board hurts just as much as the advice helps. I deserve your anger for being a verbally abusive man. I don't deserve your disrespect because I consider my WW gentle and wonderful. I am entitled to love and not hate. And I refuse to be the person I once was because living on anger is a death sentence I am not willing to write for myself anymore.
If I died tomorrow and my WW found happiness elsewhere why would I be anything but happy for her. I might not be happy for the POSOM but I would be happy for her. If my WW comes back to me I will consider myself the luckiest man in the world. So if your intent is to heckle, find someone else please because I came hear for advice and not to be spit upon with an emoticon because I choose love over anger (unless of course its because I have been verbally abusive because for that, I deserve it). If your opinion was advice please be advised that it is misunderstood by me at this point in time. Ridicule is not appropriate, I have my heart and soul open to this board and I do not to be hurt anymore today. I am bleeding enough. Blessings.

HT,

Another piece of advice: QUIT READING WHILE YOU ARE DRIVING.

I know what you mean about your Dad. He pushed and pushed and pushed, but he never really understood where I was going, but I did. Oddly, though when I went to college won an academic scholarship that paid for everything including spending money and was essentially on my own, he and I became the best of friends. His job was done and we could be friends. I am not a fan of parents being friends with their children while they are growing up.

My father passed when my youngest was 1. He never got to see any of my kids do anything really, two played college sports, one is finishing a PhD, the other is happily married and working and the last one is graduated and trying to figure out what to do with his life. He would have been proud of them. Your Dad got to spend 10 years with your son. You have been blessed.

I do believe that some of your abusiveness was due to pain and frustration. If you learn to express this I think your W will better understand you and what drives you. She thinks and has had years of experience and data to support her thoughts, that anger drives you. My guess it is fear and anxiety. What is your guess?

I asked you about trusting yourself. You have not answered that yet. At what point will you trust yourself? what marker or sign post must you pass before you can trust yourself? You see if you begin to define these things you can work toward them. You can develop a plan to meet your goals. Oddly, as you define your plan and your goals I suspect your W will be more confident in your abilities because to define the plan and the goal you will have to addressed yourself at a deeper level than you seem to have done so far. Introspection as to what motivates you will allow you see when you have truly passed the correct sign posts and markers.

Right now you are white knuckling it, and while your W may be happy that your abuse has abated, she fears you will lose your control. When you actually define your plan and goals and start to acheive them, it will no longer be about control, but simply recognition and proper responses.

Do you see where I am going with this? I hope so. I also hope it is useful.

God Bless,

JL

Just Learning: I truly appreciate your thoughts. They are provocative in a very helpful manner.
I don't know about trusting myself. I am still afraid I could "have a blow up." I wish I was not writing that. You nailed the issue that my wonderful, gentle WW has: fear and anxiety. I think the plan so far is to keep my tendancy to suddenly grow angry and raise the decibels with my voice and to place a drill instructor expression on my face in my conscious mind each day. That has been effective. Use of the tape recorder in my pocket with my son has been effective. Telling my wife that I will immediately back off if she decides I am being too tough and then let her step in with my ten year old has been effective. Journaling daily with a group of reforming verbal abusers and controllers has been effective. I am seeing a Ph.D. biweekly for counseling on that issue alone (not marriage related) has helped. I also read on the subject frequently and I have learned (I think) where I learned to be controlling (it goes back to my parents pushing me very, very hard, and I mean very hard, in a well intentioned manner to marry my first wife when I did not want to and I gave in and eventually caved feeling they must know best - not very mature of me was it?).
I guess the first mile post will be when I have been free of Verbally Abusive behavior for 12 months. I told my mother in law that I would ask her forgiveness after ten years of no verbally abusive behavior and not before. Its a habit, not unlike smoking (and darn it I started two months ago after eleven years and its very hard now to quit and I am down to two in the morning and hope to be free of it again in the next two weeks). I honestly don't know when I will be able to trust myself. I cannot right now. I trust myself to be free of it today all day. I have prayed this morning and I have a daily regimen that I read each day of my intentions. Its also helpful to watch videos of abusive men in action and to see visual drawings (like a fist coming out of a man's mouth as he is screaming at a woman). I do not trust myself to be free of it tomorrow. Each day I must remember to put this issue in my consciousness. I do believe that if I get through this with my wonderful, gentle WW that I will have proven to myself that under the most stressful of situations I can prevent it. So maybe if the truth comes out regarding the A issue, if I can respond by telling my WW that telling me is the most courageous act I have ever seen (and it would be), and then remain free of verbal abuse and anger over it that I will have proved to myself that I have become the good man that I once thought I was.
Maybe my wonderful, gentle WW is waiting to tell me because she does not trust me. Probably. Time will prove me up to it or not and perhaps that is what she thinks.
Thank you.

I am not angry ht. Just because I don't agree with you or take a different approach than others at times...that does not translate into being angry. I actually agree with many things you have said as far as choosing love over hate and that living in anger is like a death sentence. You were wrong to verbally abuse your wife and she was wrong to have an affair. Your abuse may very well have worn her down but it is still no justification for having an A.

If I died tomorrow, I'd want my H to find happiness again as well but not with xOW for the simple fact that she is not a good person (has not been repentant in the least) and any relationship with her IMO takes my H away from God. You and I may disagree on that but I will not promote my H's self destruction in the name of happiness nor do I want my children exposed to a person whom I deem as unfit and evil.

I do not mean to ridicule you. However, I do think you going from drill sergeant to ????(not sure of the description) is extreme and ridiculous. You will not help yourself, your wife, or your marriage by going to the other extreme. You sound like a God fearing man. How can your wife atone/repent for her sins in the eyes of God when you won't let her? Seems to me you are cheating her out of that opportunity by your own guilt.

Anyway...I am sorry for your pain and am not looking to kick you when you are down but you are blinded by your guilt. Every poster has mentioned this to you in one way or another...do you think that just maybe we see something that you don't? BSs can be just as blind as WSs.

Good luck to you.

Just Learning said:
Hurtingturkey responded:
Hurtingturkey, I think you misunderstood JL. IMO, he was referring to YOUR fear and anxiety, which often is expressed as anger.

I agree that you are going to the extreme with considering your wife to be such a fragile flower that you cannot even treat her as an ADULT and erquire her to give you the information you need to protect yourself and your family.

Yes, your verbal abuse hurt her and made her cry. I've been there and done that, and I still recall every last hurtful comment. My husband has been verbally abusive for much of our marriage. He has, for the most part, stopped, but can and has relapsed. HE is the one who cheated, and I have always been faithful. He uses his anger to stonewall me when I ask for the truth about my life and his cheating. Your wife will likely use her "fragility" to do the same thing to you.

I'm sure that your verbal abuse hurt your wife, made her cry, and made her feel very unloved. However, it did not make her so afraid of you that she would not dare have an affair, did it?

You do not have to be abusive to ask your wife for the truth. If it would make her feel safer, do so in the presence of a counselor or a pastor...someone who could intervene if you slip into abusiveness.

Your wife has it made as long as she has you thinking that she is so fragile that you don't dare cross her. She doesn't have to answer any questions that are uncomfortable for her, and as long as you don't know who the OM is, she can see him whenever the heck she wants to...even have him as a guest in your home for dinner. For the sake of your marriage, your family, AND your wife, you need to step up to the plate and stop taking the blame for her affair. Your verbal abuse was NO EXCUSE for her cheating!

Worth repeating:
because, just like starting an exercise program where you work out every day of the week without being realistic, you will burn out. And give up.

Also worth repeating:
because a wayward HAS to suffer consequences of some sort, to be able to learn and grow - and NOT go wayward again.

IMO, you have bought into her fogbabble about you being the cause of all y'all's problems. You gave her a get out of jail free card. Big mistake.

BRaven: Thank you for the follow-up.
Sometimes the printed word is easy to misconstrue. Emoticons are very easy to misinterpret. Its not my intent to irritate if I write my wonderful, gentle WW. Thinking about it, I would just about die to have my WW see me as wonderful and gentle. I would guess we all would like our spouse to see us that way.
My guilt is real. I believe my WW is wonderful and gentle. She is also lost in the fog and I do know that. If there were a script that unlocked her to have her open up, I would follow it. All I know is Plan A and maybe eventually Plan B. I can assure you I see the evil in my WW. I don't believe it was intended to hurt me (I was not supposed to know). Now... she knows it is hurting me but the fog and the fear of me and the cigarette nicotene addicton of the OM (which could be plural)....
When we sat down last Saturday I read my letter to her. It makes my pain very clear. I did not give her an ultimatum (and that would be to controlling). Instead I gently told her that I was in pain. Did I reach her? Not yet. Do I feel abused? Yes. Is it the level of abuse I experienced in my first marriage? No, that WW left Illinois leaving me with 3 kids (ages 2, 8 and 10) to take residence in a hotel room for 6 weeks iin New Jersey to be near her married lover. That WW scratched and hit and when I scrunched into a ball on the floor kicked me with boots. So, can I live with this situation for now? I am. But it hurts as everyone here can relate.
What I have learned by studying what verbal abusers and controllers is that when they try to verbally abuse or control others with behavior that they actually make the object of that behavior do exactly the opposite response that the Verbal Abuser and Controller Wants.
How can I Make her tell me? I know full well for us to have a future that it needs to happen. I also know that Dr. H. says most A's are never discovered and the marriages continue. I have already forgiven the past, that is a Grace that God chose to give me in response to my request. I know I do not have the character to have done that on my own. I want a marriage where my wife and I are best friends and confidants, I want a marriage where I am free to love beyond the limits of imagination without fear of hurt. I guess I am an idealist and a romantic. There are hopefully lots of us here. Am I afraid to cross my wife? Well, I did it respectfully, gently, thoroughly on Saturday last week and then I let go. I am thinking eventually the blade of grass can crack the granite slab one day. I just feel like its winter time right now and I can't grow.
I understand your comment now regarding the crappy other person. Let me digress a moment. In the middle of the pain this summer (some of you will remember my lost posts I bet), I ended up with a minor STD crabs. Now... its possible it came from a towel and 21 year old step son (we do use the same shower). But I don't think that.
Am I overly gentle? No. I do know that what is and has happened to me at my WW's premeditated selfishness is very wrong. I don't think I ever premeditated my Verbal Abuse. But then when I was told it was wrong I refused to acknowledge it. I expect my WW to be wonderful and gentle. If she does not become that person again, either she never was and I was in a fog for 12 years or its just too late and not meant to be. Even after the failure of my first marriage I held on to love for that evil person for half a dozen years before it fully died. I guess that is a character flaw that I have. I did not ever consider a long term relatitionship until it died. One day my mother said "God did not intend you to live alone forever" and it was time for me to move on. I think the hurt I feel today is more because my WW now knows (because I communicated correctly without anger) that I hurt. And she continues to allow me to hurt. I know that is thoughtless. I know that is selfish. I know that is the fog.
I also believe she is thinking about revealing and my intuition can be very good at times (its one reason I was such a terrific Verbal Abuser - I knew exactly what to say to cause pain even with a quiet conversation and I knew exactly how to try and control by raising my voice).
I also know I write too darn much and following my story is probably like reading War and Peace.

Cat Person... I can't create the consequences for her as far as I know. Getting Angry won't do it. And I don't feel angry. I do think I was gently, lovingly assertive last Saturday. By reading from my letter, which I then gave her, there will be no chance of "You Said" arguments. I told her my feelings, not hers. I told her what I would like but I did not threaten. Boy do I know the consequences side of the equation. Its not so much what my WW has done. Its coming to grips with my own self image as a fraud that has blown me away. How can the guy who solves everyone else's problems behave so stupidly, so abusively. Looking at myself in the mirror is the hardest part but I write about that elsewhere. Of the two issues, my abuse and the marriage, both get lots of time expecially since I drive 150 miles a day to and from work.
Will I see my WW as wonderful and gentle six months from now if I am still in the dark? Maybe not. But for the first time probably ever, I have communicated to her my pain in a non threatening way that I pray she heard. Have I put too much time into reform? My answer would be no. Four months ago I spent more than 6 hours a day on it. Today about two. Eventually I hope it simply becomes a habit to communicate gently and lovingly. If I have to go Plan B it will be quietly and lovingly done. My mother in law has already read much of the game plan on line. She will be my conduit to my son for visits etc. I know that without asking. Having dealt with multiple A's in her first marriage (my WW's father), she is solidly on my side in this one. I won't give up on reforming me but a 12 year habit can be broken over night but relapses have to be prevented every day. When it is habit for me to treat my wonderful, gentle wife gently regardless of the circumstances... then I can begin to have real trust in me.
Lady Clueless: I don't see my WW as a fragile flower. In many ways she is much tougher than I. But like the combat hardened Marine my son is, I see my WW as having claustrophobia. Tell my 21 year old he is fragile. He is not. That young man just volunteered for Afghanistan after being wounded in Iraq his first deployment there and he went back a second time. But he has claustrophobia. Get wounded from an IED and lay in a burning HUMVEE unable to move and yup... he now has claustrophobia. Its real. Do you blame him for that? My WW has a fear of verbal abuse. That makes her gentle in my book. I guess its the intent of how you use the adjective? Hopefully I have explained myself better.
And Yup, my WW does have it made. And that S_ _ _ _ s. All I know is patience (TIME) and Plan A and since my patience is running down I guess one reason I am posting is to try and
deal with it all.
Am I to blame for the A? Partly, only partly. I just set the table by making my WW angry and hurt and that opened the door. My wonderful, gentle WW stepped through it. And I bleed every single day. I pray that one day the anger that she has that had to be involved in the premediatation of the A dissolves. And I pray that one day she will realize that I have become the man she wanted all along. And I pray that the OM hurts like H _ _ _ when she lets go. As for my WW. If one day she looks at herself in the mirror like I have... those are consequences that I won't spare her from. And I do know what that is like and nearly ended my own life when they struck home. I don't want it to be that drastic for her.
Blessings.

Here is where your thinking is screwed up.

You are NOT, in ANY way, shape, or form, to blame for ANY part of her affair. The ENTIRE blame for her affair rests on her shoulders.

You are only to blame for 50% of the marital issues.

Yes, you were wrong to be verbally abusive, but she could have dealt with it by other means. She could have left you, filed for divorce, gotten back into your face and stood up to you, told you to go to h3!!...whatever!

Instead, she CHOSE to have an affair.

It is likely that she would have had an affair even if you had not been verbally abusive. Her choice to have an affair was about HER, not you!

HT,

Lady_C is right I was speaking about you, not your W.

JL

fwiw, I commend you for all the work you're doing on improving yourself. You will never regret it. I would only add that I hope you can take steps to pull back now and then, and see the forest. Make sure that all the steps you are doing are for the right reasons, and will result in what you want. Keep the grand picture in mind, you know? Don't get so focused on becoming Superman, nor get so focused on achieving something from/for your wife. Stay balanced.

JL and Lady C: I got it this time. Last summer I would have said the depression was making it difficult for me to grasp concepts. No excuse today. I was at maybe 25% intellectual capability. Today maybe 75%. Usually my 75% is sufficient to function and keep my job. Apparently the 25% was at work on that point. Yes, absolutely my Fear and Anxiety were triggering my Verbal Abuse. Ask why SEVEN times (I teach 6 Sigma training for managers in my hospital and that "ask why seven times" is part of the training) and you get down to how I was brought up. Mum and Dad did their best and I love them dearly. But we fought in my family. It was not perfect. Imagine if you will going to your father at age 27 to tell him that your wife was hitting you and your father turns around, lifts his shirt and his back is covered in scratches. Your Dad says, "this is married life.... Don't hit back." That really happened. I am not a victim though, and I should have understood that this was wrong. Lack of maturity, guts and character. Thankfully I never hit but somehow I carried all the fear, anxiety and pain forward into this marriage and it came out as my verbal abuse and controlling behavior. I wasn't going to lose an argument, I wasn't going to be hurt ever again. And I got exactly the reverse. I understand that my wonderful, gentle wife chose for herself. I don't think anyone knows if she would have chosen the affair absent my behavior. What I do know is that it is typical behavior of the wife of a verbal abuser. 100% of the male members of a site dedicated to ending verbal abuse ended up recognizing their problem when their wife or girlfriend left for someone else or began an A. That is cause and effect and it is in numbers too significant to ignore. I might even provide the data on this to Dr. H. who would not be privy to it. The top expert on Verbally Abusive Behavior, Patricia Evans has stated that her research confirms this outcome in marriages with verbal abuse "constantly." In this case, Dr. H. is right, but so is Patricia Evans. SO while my WW is responsible for her behavior and I am responsible for mine... A controlling, verbally abusive husband will predispose his wife to an A. Its the exact opposite of what the controlling, verbally abusive man wants and it is exactly what he gets. And I got exactly the reverse of what I wanted....
But, a breaking update. On a lunch time phone call today my wonderful, gentle, WW in a pleasant conversation said "I do understand now that a friendship with another man when you are married is a bad idea. I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. (this comment after I mentioned that I was feeling disappointed that she had not understood my comments about her former boss in my letter and conversation last Saturday). She then added, "Now I know you can't do that. I understand. I just called him once last year." When I bluffed that I was aware of many other calls, she said "Okay, I know." It was lunchtime and we ran out of time to talk. But its a start don't you think? And before you nail me for not pushing further, remember my fear about being controlling or making her defensive. It is going to have to come out in her own time I guess and from time to time I am going to have to gently push but I will have to pick my spots. Asking for a no contact and "I hurt my Husband with this relationship" letter is on my request agenda as will be acknowledgement of this man's wife in the equation. I thought about exposing this one but this couple have a son who was seriously wounded (partly paralyzed) in Afghanistan in July and I just have not had the heart to add to this young man's mothers' burden with an exposure letter all these months. I scanned the Valentine's cards I found.
Also on the agenda is the student. Perhaps if I keep things safe and gentle and warm and don't blow up (I won't) because of this, more information will trickle out.
I have been married to my wonderful, gentle WW for nearly 12 years and she has never, ever admitted a mistake in judgement ever before (I'm close behind in ths regard but recovering!). I think the call at lunch today was terrific. It was not in my script - but I will take it as a second step (the first step was my WW slipping into a conversation last week that she was too trusting).
Cat P I am doing the work for myself. I started to do it for my marriage but when I realized what I had become, I am doing it for me. I am a better man than what I did but I wasn't.
For all here (still reading my endless writing) I don't want to take the marital issues and turn them into blame. In my career role I don't bother with blame. It wastes to much time and energy. We (my WW and I) need to solve the problems. This strategy works in business and it will work here if we can just get the major problems out on the table which I fully understand is what needs to happen.
Thank you for being there all. Blessings.

HT,

First, let me tell you I am not a psych type at all. So my observation should be considered in this light.

I think your problem is that you have not been taught how to defend yourself. Your W did to you what your mother did to your father. You have been given incredibly hurtful and wrongheaded lessons by two of the most powerful women in your life. Your response was to protect yourself and you did this with the only tool you understood...aggression. Verbal aggression. You tried to control your second W and your family because you had been beaten up mentally and physically by the two previous women in your life.

What you learned and are learning is that aggression (verbal or physical) although effective in the case of your parents on you, does not lead to control. It leads to out of control responses. You rebelled and became perhaps even worse than your parents, but clearly not worse than your first W. Your second W did what you did, she rebelled and had an affair.

What does this tell me??? It tells me you don't have a clue how to protect yourself and neither does she. You also pointed out that she is NEVER wrong. Why is that? I'll tell you. It is a defensive mechanism to protect herself. She has been the opposite of you, which if you consider a circle is right next to you.

How do healthy people defend themselves?? First you start be admitting to yourself that no one runs their life like you do. Second, you realize that even the best intentioned people can hurt you, that is part of the process. Next, you come to realize that you have sought refuge in controlling minutia (sp) instead of the big picture.

What do I mean? You have not set boundaries, you have not enforced boundaries. You have not opened up and loved while knowing if your boundaries are crossed you are strong enough to leave. People that recover best here are the ones that know they can proceed with life with or without their spouse, but they CHOOSE to love, they CHOOSE to be married, they CHOOSE their boundaries, and they CHOOSE to be respectful, kind and generous...KNOWING they can leave if the spouse does not reciprocate.

You don't want a W that doesn't respect you. You don't want a W that doesn't love you. You don't want a W that you have to control and force to do these things. That isn't a marriage.

Your best defense is to decide on your boundaries, your basic moral code, your idea of love and respect and then articulate those to your W. IF she choose to join you in your life great, if not, find a woman that will return the love and respect you give her. Your father did not do that. You did not do this with your first W. You let her violate you physically and mentally. If you had looked her in the eye and stated what you needed or you would leave, perhaps she would of left, she did anyway. But, you would have defended yourself.

What you have seen in the reaction by many people is intrinsically they are telling you, that you are not defending yourself or your marriage, or you family by swinging to the other end of the spectrum. You will be defenseless as you were when you were in full control and abuse mode.

You defend yourself by setting your boundaries, treating people well, and not tolerating (that means leaving) those that won't respect you or your boundaries. This is not supposed to be a threat, it is supposed to be action. Life is too short to waste in anything else.

Please think about this. I am sure your data is valid about abused spouses having affairs. You know why? Healthy people who can defend themselves would have never tolerated it to begin with, only people with just as many problems will try to avoid conflict by having an affair and creating even more conflict.

Your W may be many things but she is NOT well adjusted and she has no idea how to defend herself properly, it is not by running to some other man. It is by setting her boundaries and defending them, just as you should be doing.

Is this making any sense to you?? I hope so.

Please think about it. You need to learn how to really defend yourself and while it is wonderful that you are addressing your abuse and anger, swinging to what your W did, being a doormat is not a good defense either.

God Bless,

JL

JL: I just read your post. Four times. It does make a lot of sense. I can add to your analysis what I realized when I was writing last night... My parents picked someone for me in my first marriage that had exactly the same flaws that my mother had and I already knew I was a carbon copy of my Father. Same profession, same hobbies....
The issue of defending myself makes sense and it is not something I have ever thought about. I think last Saturday when I sat down and read my lengthy letter (here is where and why I hurt on the issue of other men being the primary issue I addressed) that maybe I defined a boundry in a powerful communicaton style - I did not demand. I did not threaten and I did clearly state what I felt and what I hoped for. I held my wonderful gentle WW's hand the entire time I read the letter. I did not counter denials. That may have helped the first admission I received at lunch yesterday. I am going to have to do some reading about boundaries (anyone have suggestions?).
Thank you for taking the time to write a very powerful post. It belongs in the notable section in my O.
When I read posts here about Plan A, I don't often see posters talk about what they do to help themselves (in Plan A). I may be a victim of not having read enough posts. Your comments are Pulitzer worthy.
Blessings

I read a really neat book a few years ago. It's written for men, and I got it in the mistaken belief it was my job to educate my husband on what he was doing wrong, lol. But the information still holds. I highly recommend it. It's called Hold On To Your N.U.T.S.. The basic premise is that you decide what your core needs are to be happy - as yourself. Then, you take those, and you incorporate them into the marriage (and your wife should do the same). As long as you both agree on those N.U.T.S., the rest of your time and effort should be on your marriage and family.

A good analogy: You love to play basketball. You've played Saturday morning basketball since you were 10. You get married. The other guys all still want to play. You tell your wife it's really important for you to continue to get that one on one (sorry) time with the guys; it makes you happy. She's fine with that; she likes to grocery shop on Saturday mornings by herself anyway. You're both happy. And because she's not nagging you to give up your 'man' time, you're filled with love for her, and you are invested in finding other ways to show her love, like meeting her top ENs. And because you're meeting her top ENs, she wants to meet your top ENs, too. At the end, you got to keep one of your N.U.T.S., so you're happy to be in the marriage, not festering resentment at her for 'making' you give up your basketball games.

ht, I went back and read the letters your wife wrote to you. I could have written both of them almost verbatim. The only difference between you and my H is that he never helped our kids with homework and thus never stood over them, screaming at them about it.

I have tried writing letters to him, and he has never even tried to read them. He DOES have a reading disability, although it often seems to me that he can read better than he claims. At any rate, he refuses to read anything I write to him, and he also does not "hear" what I try to say to him.

He has, for the most part, stopped the verbal abuse, although he relapses every now and then. I just hand it right back to him these days.

The only reason I'm still married to him is that I hung on too long, and now I am disabled, unable to work, and our finances are in such a mess that we can't afford to live separately.

While the verbal abuse has stopped, he still continues many of the other behaviors that are very much like what your wife spoke of in her letters.

Oh...in our case, HE was the unfaithful spouse.

If he treated me the way you indicate that you treat your wife, I would be even more insulted than I am by his current treatment. Having one's husband adore one is wonderful, but I need real respect in there, too.

In reading your wife's letters to you, I do not see someone who is so darned fragile that you cannot push for the truth from her.

You can push for the truth withOUT being abusive.

You just sit her down, tell her that you know she had an affair, and that you want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Tell her that you are willing to do your part in rebuilding the marriage, but her doing HER part is also required.

Tell her that you are not interested in becoming an abusive man again, but that you will also not live in a marriage filled with secrets and lies.

Then, just walk away.

NO angry outbursts from you. Just the simple truth.

I know that you are seeing positive signs in her behavior toward you, but those are also signs of a FALSE recovery.

Because, in the end, if you don't get what YOU need from the marriage, you could be like me...married to someone when you would rather be single.

CatP: Thank you for the referral. I will be at the bookstore tonight. You expressed a really neat series of ideas there.
LadyC: There is no pleasure in reading those letters for me. Its hard for me to understand what the H I was trying to do even now. At times I wonder if I went Schitz myself. Its like reading about the village idiot only to find out that you are the villge idiot. And I was. Right now its hard sometimes not to stand up in meetings at work and tell people what I have done. Were i single without a family to support I probably would but I owe my job's earning power to my family. I also have learned everything I could about people like me. Statistically its about one in 3.6 married males over the age of 35 (too hard to collect accurate data on the young tykes). Its scary. I have nothing but contempt for my actions and no excuses other than to be bewildered as to why I could not see myself (yet that is an absolutely common characteristic of people who do what I did).
I have already attempted the exact strategy you have suggested with no results to date. The sad part (if I a do become involved in a potential False Recovery circumstance) is that I would still be in a better marriage than I have ever known. Way better. I will admit it, there are times when I wish I had not put the tape recorder in the car. There is some wisdom in the ignorance is bliss theory. BUT the truth is... I want it all. Every single bit. I want the joy, the trust, the companionship, the partnership and the love. There is one thing I can say about my mother and father... they did fight in the worst possible way, but they loved one another and you could see it.
I want the love. Not just the in love but the love. By the time death came there is no doubt in my mind that my parents unconditionally loved one another. I would like to leave that legacy with my current ten year old as neither my wife nor I can do that with the hers, and mine parts of our hers, mine and ours family. I want the whole deal. In the worst way possible. Oh yes. I can only tell you that if I have to endure the "for worse" part, I will hang on as long as I can keep my sanity and intellectual functioning above 20%. When it drops below that, its time to do something.
I don't see Recovery today as nearby. I just see a pleasant relationship. And I have never had that much ever before. For that, I am grateful. Do I want lots more? Yes. Do I want a chance to atone? Of course. Do I want to whip myself for my past or have my wonderful, gentle WW do that for me? No. At least not most of my waking hours and days.
So since the direct but non abusive method has not worked I am left with some table scraps and some hope. Its all I have Lady C. And maybe, the longer I am free of abuse or controlling behavior, I have just a little bit of pride now. For the first time in 19 years I don't hate myself for not being good enough. Maybe, this time I will be. Funny to have thousands of people depending on me at work and to be such a failure in my own eyes.
I guess patience, learning lessons about how to manage myself and my marriage are things I just did not take time to learn in my rush to run a hospital. You would think it hard to do my job and yet I see some of the lowest paid people here glowing when they greet their spouses. Gosh Darn How I Want That. I have wasted so much time solving organizational problems and not learned how to solve my own. Lady C, I also see your regret and I am not so self absorbed in my pain with my personal problems to not reach out to you... I will remember you in my prayers this evening. I have to believe there is always hope.
Blessings and THANK YOU.

HT,

You do yourself a great disservice if you think you did not have it in you do achieve at the level you have achieved. While I honor my parents, and I credit them for many many important lessons in my life, in the end I had to do it and I had to do it on my own. You did as well. Their approach actually may have held you back in many ways. It surely did in the area of matrimony.

The book on boundaries that is considered the best is by Townsend and Clouds. It is think and hardly reads like a novel, but it is complete.

Your boundaries are what will allow you to talk to your W about what you know, don't know and need.

Boundary : I won't live in ignorance or accept the "mushroom" treatment (For your information the Mushroom treatment is: being kept in the dark and being fed manure.) That is what is going on now.

Boundaries allow you to face the world without having to control it. They are you guideposts and your support.

I'll offer you one of my funniest stories from my childhood. As I stated my father was STRICT. And as children my siblings and I were very much accountable for our behavior. My father also firmly believed in the "theraputic power of the hand" applied on the tush. He was an intimidating man in size, temperament and his beliefs. So when I go to be a young teen imagine may surprise when I figured out that what I thought were very "unfair" treats of my father could be used for my benefit. So acquaintences wanted me to join them in something I really did not want to do. I was relatively new to the school, but many knew my Dad. Can you say peer pressure. Imagine my surprise when I said "I don't think I can do that, my Dad will find out someway and I don't want to pay that price." One kid piped up, "so are you afraid of your Dad?" I replied "yes" and a few others that knew him just nodded their heads and said "believe him he doesn't and you don't want him mad at you."

I was out, and I found that I had a way out of many things I did not want to do. He was a boundary for me, because he set boundaries for himself and our family. Boundaries are really really important HT. The will give you strength far beyond what your agressive/abusive approach could or would do. AND, often you can save a friendship/marriage with them too.

I'll leave you with one last quote from my Dad.

You have essentially made an "enemy" of your W and were on the track to do so with your son. You need to undo one and prevent the other. Boundaries will offer you a way to deal with this and give yourself the strength to let them live their lives with you in a harmonious fashion.

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

JL
Thank you for the book referral. And your assessment is impossible to argue with. I will spend the weekend doing as much reading as I can. I am an adult learner. I am also thinking that it is time to get off the express train. I had a discussion last evening with my board chairman and I let him know that I am struggling at home with this issue. I can find a less time consuming job. Since I live in a rural area my commute will remain but the 6 day a week job is one of my factors because I could not put the 30+ hours with my wonderful, gentle WW in no matter what with this job. Although my board chairman said we need you, and offered support, I have to talk this one through with my WW and myself.
Funny (side splitting) aside. When we finished our discussion this University President hugge me last night. Just then one of our young administrators (a smart female executive) walked into my office. You can just imagine. We laughed and laughed as she fled the office. We called her back and I suspect she stopped at a bar on the way home because she clearly saw what she thinks she saw. Oh well.
I know all about the enemies. My career is a hired gun and its far from popular across teh board.
I have a lot to think about this weekend and I can make tough decisions at work.
Thank you again. Blessings

HT,

Does this job have you crossing your own boundaries? You may be good at it but deep down does it cross boundaries within you? If so, consider this another source of the anger you have felt and are fighting now. Sometimes things get to us in ways we don't see but we sure do express.

I used to have an 1 hr to 1.5 hour commute to travel roughly 20 miles everyday. I did not appreciate how much this was affecting me until I changed jobs and reduced my commute to 15 minutes. Within a week my W was commenting on how I was changing.

Not saying you can or should give up commute, I am just saying that often things get to us in ways we don't see ourselves.

Just thoughts.

God Bless,

JL