Do you really owe him an apology, Wolf? Think on that...

Owning up to your part is one thing, but no one says you need to do it any other way than with yourself and God...I mean...if you need the man's forgiveness, then sure, but I thought it was the other way around in your sitch...

The whole owning up to your part thing, imo, is so that you can move forward with a purer heart - with a cleaner conscience. If talking to him about it will achieve that, then great. If it's not going to help YOU, then...I'd pass...

And...as far as being his friend...I'd pass on that too. Don't push yourself to do things that hurt your heart. If it feels painful, that's a good indication that now is not the time - and it may serve you best to realize that there may 'never' be a time when you can call him a friend...and that's okay...really. Doesn't mean you're a bad person or a resentful person. Just means that you aren't ready, may never get to that point, and he's just going to have to live with it. Tough times for the wayward, huh?

I emailed the counselor what happened and told him to do with it what he wanted.

So, when WH emails me his stuff, reply to the financial stuff and ignore the rest?
Wolf, not Cougar
-Chel

So, when WH emails me his stuff, reply to the financial stuff and ignore the rest?

That's what I'd do.

I think now is a very emotional time for you, and I also think it's okay to tell your WH that you aren't ready to hear justification or rationale - that now you have to think about moving forward (and leaving his sorry butt in the dust).

I don't know why it's important to me, but it is. I had no idea I was co-dependent, and I really acted all arrogant, and superior. Looking back, I'm ashamed of how I handled some things, but I know I did the best I could with what I had at the moment.



You've got a good point. He's done me far more harm on purpose than I've done on purpose AND on accident to him.



It would help me. But, it can wait.
I don't know how I'm ever going to come through this. I married this guy for life. How am I going to trust anyone, ever again? I'm losing so much. And who's going to want damaged goods like me, anyway? I was happy, married. I'm sure I'd be happy, single, too... but I really liked being married.


This whole thing tonight was intensely painful. Seeing all these people that register on my heart and brain as "family"... and having it not be so. I wanted to be there, and gone without seeing him.

I'm to the point that I really don't care much anymore what people think of me. Spiteful? Resentful? Whatever.
I've made mistakes but I've done the best I could to save the marriage and be there for him as much as I could. My heart's still breaking, and he's out there partying and honing his skills at picking drunken loser friends.

I just want everything to be ok. I want some peace in my life now, and some closure.

It was nice to look at him and see a stranger. Nice, and sad all at once. I just realized for the first time tonight that he REALLY isn't much to look at. Love really is/was blind.

I've made mistakes but I've done the best I could to save the marriage and be there for him as much as I could. My heart's still breaking, and he's out there partying and honing his skills at picking drunken loser friends.

He's making some unfortunate choices right now, but you have no control over it. It may feel like you're hurting more than he is, but he's hurting himself with his actions and is quite likely causing some deep concern for his mother/father.

I just want everything to be ok. I want some peace in my life now, and some closure.

Wolf...losing your marriage is tough stuff! You're probably going to go through a grieving process, and it's going to take time.

It was nice to look at him and see a stranger. Nice, and sad all at once. I just realized for the first time tonight that he REALLY isn't much to look at. Love really is/was blind.

Some distance, emotionally and physically, will likely be good for you and could give you the clarity you need.

Seeing all these people that register on my heart and brain as "family"... and having it not be so.

I think when you do talk to his mother, you're going to have to understand how disappointed she likely is in her own child and his choices. Her support of you may be limited due to a conflict of interest/loyalty to her son, but you need to remind yourself that he may need more of her attention and concern right now.

You can certainly tell her that you wish things weren't ending like this, that you're in an awful lot of pain, and that you feel as if you're losing an entire family. Based on the reaction you described when you entered the funeral home, it sounds as though they think very highly of you (and probably always will.)

In the meantime, I'd encourage you to try to bolster your support network outside his family and also visit any of the other forums here that may help in your recovery. Do some reading on recovering from divorce, perhaps.

I probably came across quite unfriendly and mean above, but I guess what I'm getting at is that you need to be your own first priority right now. If you think that apologizing for your part in the demise of the marriage is important to your healing, then that's something you should do. However, do that with your eyes open. There's a chance that you will not get an apology or words of his own accountability, even, in return. That particular conversation could go a number of ways, of course, but it may end up being one sided. I'd try to be prepared for both.

He's making some unfortunate choices right now, but you have no control over it. It may feel like you're hurting more than he is, but he's hurting himself with his actions and is quite likely causing some deep concern for his mother/father.

I doubt that. Remember? Binge drinkers. All of them. Just like him.

Wolf...losing your marriage is tough stuff! You're probably going to go through a grieving process, and it's going to take time.

It's even harder when you know you're going to end up destitute, you see all your hard work thrown away, and YOU are being thrown away for alcohol and trashy crazy bar chicks.

Some distance, emotionally and physically, will likely be good for you and could give you the clarity you need.


Great! How's another planet? This is especially hard because I am totally stuck where I am, with limited influence over any of this. I have literally NO money.

I'm just so irritated that everyone is still so "buddy buddy" with him. He's just not having any consequences for his actions at all and I just keep getting kicked while I'm down, with no opportunity to get on my feet.

I think when you do talk to his mother, you're going to have to understand how disappointed she likely is in her own child and his choices. Her support of you may be limited due to a conflict of interest/loyalty to her son, but you need to remind yourself that he may need more of her attention and concern right now.

She was very nice to me, and apologized for not being more available. She made it sound like they haven't talked much.

See, the way he's spinning all this is that he never really WANTED to get married, and all through the marriage he's martyred himself to MY expectations. Never mind I tried to get him to go to college... and pay cash while he was going! but he couldn't be bothered to show up for classes! Never mind that while he got to do the fun jobs, including working for his dad for a couple years for next to no pay, I was STUCK for 12 years in a horrible, verbally abusive job that I couldn't leave because I wanted a better life for us. Now that my best earning years are behind me, and I'm losing everything I worked for, he gets to skate away with the big paycheck, and I don't know if I'm even going to be able to work OR qualifiy for disability OR even be able to earn a living at all.
I'm just so hurt, and irritated by all this.

You can certainly tell her that you wish things weren't ending like this, that you're in an awful lot of pain, and that you feel as if you're losing an entire family. Based on the reaction you described when you entered the funeral home, it sounds as though they think very highly of you (and probably always will.)


<shrug> Sure. I'm just GREAT.

In the meantime, I'd encourage you to try to bolster your support network outside his family and also visit any of the other forums here that may help in your recovery. Do some reading on recovering from divorce, perhaps.

Yeah yeah. I'm doing all the reading. I'm in AlAnon, CoDA and am reading tons of books on the subject. I'm doing the best I can. I just want it over with so I see what I have left to rebuild with.

I probably came across quite unfriendly and mean above, but I guess what I'm getting at is that you need to be your own first priority right now. If you think that apologizing for your part in the demise of the marriage is important to your healing, then that's something you should do. However, do that with your eyes open. There's a chance that you will not get an apology or words of his own accountability, even, in return. That particular conversation could go a number of ways, of course, but it may end up being one sided. I'd try to be prepared for both.


No, no... you're fine. You're right. This isn't the time for apologies. He's just not rational. And frankly, neither am I, right now. I'm just so hurt, and sad, and irritated... and SCARED! OMG am I scared! I don't know if I'm going to be ok, and I just had everything I've lost rubbed in my face. He's justifying all his behavior, and getting away with all this with no consequences at all. I'm just tired, and scared, and hurting and so heartsore... and I can't see an end, or anything resembling justice out of this. It's just so hard.

Do you honestly, deep in your soul, think he will have no consequences? Especially considering his behavior with alcohol and women? Do the consequences have to be on your time line? That's not reality.

Also...if his family is comprised of binge drinkers, perhaps Wolf this is as good a time as any to cut ties with the lot of them...

You do have options...

First thing is that you can consult the bureau/board of assistance in your county and see what resources you have. You can apply for temporary medical and financial assistance, help with your heat if you choose to move out, food stamps, and I'm sure there is more. What about SSI? What about spousal support? Check out disability criteria in your state. You've got a computer; get to work investigating your options.

What sort of disability do you have? Maybe we can brain storm. Put the word out to your familial and social circle what you need. Time to put your big girl panties on and show that son of a gun what you're made of.

Are you going to let a low life alcoholic porn addict tell you what direction your life is going to go in? Are you going to allow someone with such low moral character to make your decisions for you? I know you're in pain, and maybe you need to grieve for a while, but your dependency on this man is obviously not healthy - and you will eventually have to snap out of it and get your self together. Now get to it.

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It can't be done and it ANNOYS THE PIG."

Wolf...why do you care how he's spinning it? Even he admits we have/had a good relationship, and everyone is telling me that he has NOTHING bad to say about me.Confusing, please clarify.

Both of you could have changed the course of this years and years ago, and for whatever reason, you didn't. There must have been some payoff for each of you along the way. Who is feeding you this information anyway? Do you really think it's wise to listen?

Remember...if he was so miserable, why didn't he leave???!!! Because you were a good wife and a good person, and you took care of him, that's why!!! Do you really think anyone worth their salt is not going to wonder why the man didn't leave earlier if he was so miserable?

What were the circumstances of that 12-year job that makes you feel you were stuck? Your disability? No other job prospects? Help me understand.

Ok...here goes...


Stop that stinkin' thinkin'. THAT will get you nowhere. From what I've read here, you are smart, nice, giving, caring, compassionate...sounds like a pretty good package to me!

Time to step off of that pity party platform you've been on, and get on with your life. It wastes your time and everyone else's.

What are you doing to IMPROVE your life right now?

My D19 just called me and told me an old friend of hers contacted her today (he got a girl pregnant when he was 15, has been living in poverty ever since, stupid stupid story); said it looks like he'll be going to jail this month (he's 19). She said, 'hmmm, too bad.' He got all upset because she didn't commiserate and instead brought up the whole reason he is LIKE this - no accountability, no brains, no sense...just getting in trouble all the time and expecting everyone to feel sorry for him, for HIS choices. She finally just said, 'look. YOU make the choices that put you there. YOU have the same chance to NOT make those choices, yet you do. Why should I feel sorry for you?' Boy is he mad now, lol.

I'm not saying this is your fault, what your H did to you. I'm saying that, now that it's done, everything else...ALL UP TO YOU.

What choices are you going to make today that HELP you?

Do you honestly, deep in your soul, think he will have no consequences? Especially considering his behavior with alcohol and women? Do the consequences have to be on your time line? That's not reality.

It certainly seems as though he's having no consequences so far.
Of course they don't have to be on MY timeline. Sheesh.

Also...if his family is comprised of binge drinkers, perhaps Wolf this is as good a time as any to cut ties with the lot of them...

I've pulled back. Doesn't mean I don't miss them and frankly I still love them. Remember... this was good, before he melted down. They're dysfunctional, but they were my family and I love them. I'm prepared to do it from a distance.

You do have options...

Right this minute? Not so much. I'm trying to make the most of what I've got. When the house sells and we can divorce, THEN I will have more choices. For now, I'm living in my grandparent's basement. I don't like it, but they need me as much as I need them right now. Grandma is 80, Grandpa is 83. Grandma has been VERY ill... in the hospital for 6 weeks and out now. She has started exhibiting some signs of mild to moderate dementia. Grandpa is "forgetful" but not that bad. Trust me, I'm earning my keep.

First thing is that you can consult the bureau/board of assistance in your county and see what resources you have. You can apply for temporary medical and financial assistance, help with your heat if you choose to move out, food stamps, and I'm sure there is more. What about SSI? What about spousal support? Check out disability criteria in your state. You've got a computer; get to work investigating your options.

Once again, the assumption that I've done nothing... not the case. I may be crying, but I ASSURE you I haven't been sitting here doing NOTHING and crying. I've already investigated the options above that apply to my situation.

I filed for disability over a year ago and have been awaiting a hearing date for 6 months. I've got representation for the hearing, even, once it rolls around, that's working on a "paid if I win" basis... they are confident I have a very legitimate case.
For the record, I don't WANT to be on disability. I want to be healthy and go back to making $60-$80k/year like I did before I got sick. The $1800 a month I'd have to live on with disability is no "golden ticket." This is humiliating enough without having my nose rubbed in it.

What sort of disability do you have? Maybe we can brain storm. Put the word out to your familial and social circle what you need. Time to put your big girl panties on and show that son of a gun what you're made of.

Grrr. My familial and social circle already knows what's going on. They've been very emotionally supportive. My "big girl panties" have NEVER been removed, thank you very much.

I have fibromyalgia. Yes, it is a real disease. Yes, I have been seeking medical treatment and am not "self diagnosed". I am on some new meds that are helping, and my biggest focus has been getting healthy. I've been doing a lot of walking, even though it exhausts me and I can't do much afterwards. I have lost 20 lbs in the last 3 months. In the meantime, I have been trying to find work, even though I'm awaiting the disability hearing AND I am still self-employed in a very part time capacity as a sales person of internet marketing services. There is potential for good money there, but the company is young and there isn't an health insurance option at this point.

The "brain fog" is the biggest challenge I have with the fibromyalgia. When you are in professional sales, you are expected to argue fluently at the drop of a hat with people who don't even want to talk to you. You have to be sharp and mentally at the top of your game. The pain and the fatigue are tough, to be sure... but it's the 'scatterbrained' feeling (commonly known as "fibro fog") that has been the real career killer for me. I've spent the last 4 years trying new meds, diets, etc. I really do want to beat this so I can go back to feeling good about myself and having money.

Are you going to let a low life alcoholic porn addict tell you what direction your life is going to go in? Are you going to allow someone with such low moral character to make your decisions for you? I know you're in pain, and maybe you need to grieve for a while, but your dependency on this man is obviously not healthy - and you will eventually have to snap out of it and get your self together. Now get to it. [/quote]

He's not making any decisions for me. What gave you that impression?
My IC says I'm doing fine, given the circumstances. I have everything "as together" as it can be right now. Since I haven't found a way to magically feel better or pull money out my @ss, nothing's changing fast even though I've been putting all kinds of effort into improving my circumstances.

Wolf...I am trying to help you, give you some ideas, give you a pep talk like I would any of my 3 sisters. I can see I'm not succeeding and obviously irritating you, so I'll bug off. I know you're in pain so I don't want to add to that.

And just for the record, I was not doubting your disability. I simply was trying to get a better idea of what you had to deal with.

Good luck to you.

What I was trying to say... pardon me if I wasn't clear.. is that he's not trashing me, personally.

Both of you could have changed the course of this years and years ago, and for whatever reason, you didn't. There must have been some payoff for each of you along the way. Who is feeding you this information anyway? Do you really think it's wise to listen?

First of all, I didn't change anything years and years ago because although things weren't perfect, I was content. I never expected perfection. We didn't argue. He was always fun to be around.
I have recently put a stop to anyone and everyone telling me what he's up to.

Remember...if he was so miserable, why didn't he leave???!!! Because you were a good wife and a good person, and you took care of him, that's why!!! Do you really think anyone worth their salt is not going to wonder why the man didn't leave earlier if he was so miserable?

Good point.

What were the circumstances of that 12-year job that makes you feel you were stuck? Your disability? No other job prospects? Help me understand.

That job was kind of like being married to an abusive spouse. The boss was a shrieking harpy that tore you down, made you feel like you were nothing except what you could produce... but it paid so well you couldn't leave, especially when you doubted yourself, your abilities, and the possibility of finding other well paying work out there.

I've been gone from that company for a few years now. I still have nightmares. Had one last night, even.

I see part of my problem here is that I've spent my entire adult career in professional sales... advertising sales to be specific. And I HATE it. But I don't know anything else, and I'm afraid I won't be able to earn enough to live on, if I'm doing something that I'd actually like.

Also, I can't even begin to describe what it was like to work in an office, after my fibromyalgia went acute. It was like having a horrible, exhausting, aching flu every single day, all day. You know? Like with the body aches, and the kind where everything hurts to touch, and you're cold all the time and so tired you just want to lay down and die. I would drive home every night after work, crying my eyes out because I was exhausted... then just do the minimum to survive, and get up the next morning to do it again. I am really, truly afraid of feeling like that again.

My experiences in my professional life have left me feeling used, and used and used up, until I went independent and started the job I now have. I still don't like being in sales, but at least I could do this position from home, and the bosses are fair. I was JUST starting to build up my business and things were getting comfortable WH did his "bomb drop" late in 2008, and then the economy went to hell. My health melted down again shortly thereafter. I just got back to working half days on my job in September 09, and was starting to make progress when he wigged out on me again and we separated top of October.

I don't know the way out. I'm doing the best I can trying to get some work in... between my exhaustion and constant interruptions for my Grandparent's needs. I'd love to go back to school, but I don't know what I could do that would pay enough to pay off debit from going to school in the first place, and I KNOW I can't work and do school at the same time in the state I'm in, physically speaking.

I had a hard time deciding to explain that because I'm really feeling like you're kicking me while I'm down, here.

I'm NOT some big, pathetic whiner that has done nothing to improve my situation! There is more going on than me crying over some low-life alcoholic... the entire foundation of my sense of self identity is gone, too. I used to be GOOD at my work. I used to be our primary wage earner. I'm still the same person that excelled and won contests at a job I hated, because I wanted a little security in my life. I am afraid that I'm going to be exhausted and broke and scared forever, now. We used to be the ones people came to for help, or money or whatever and now I don't even know how to help myself.

I know, rationally, that part of why I'm in such a bad frame of mind the last few days is this big weather front that is moving through. I am VERY sensitive to the weather.. my pain and brain fog increase dramatically. Knowing this rationally doesn't, however, make the symptoms I'm dealing with any less real.

You might find it hard to believe after getting the tone of some of my conversations on this board here, but I have always been known for my upbeat, never-say-die, optimistic and enthusiastic attitude. Chronic illness didn't even dampen that much. But having to start over, with such limited prospects and zero confidence everything will turn out ok? It's really damn scary. Judge me for a coward if you want and tell me I need "big girl panties." I'll think of you when I wake up in the middle of the night with stress hives and muscle spasms that won't settle down. That has nothing to do with HIM. Not every situation is as simple as "pick yourself up by the bootstraps." I wish I knew what I could do to feel better.

Gee... thanks.

I guess I'll be doing the same stuff I've been doing for the last 3 months... trying to find a lawyer that will work for nothing, trying to work my job as I can, trying to find a regular job that would have benefits, trying to take care of my health and build my strength back up, taking care of my grandparents, going to Al-Anon, CoDA and IC, trying to keep a social life, doing reading on overcoming divorces, AND trying to decide what I want to do for work for the rest of my life.

I haven't just been sitting on my @ss, whining.

I got a real estate agent today. I'm going to download a "do it yourself" divorce kit tonight and look it over.

I'm trying to survive, here.


I'm doing the best I can. I just don't know what else I can DO.

If I were in your shoes, the first thing I would do is visit a psychiatrist (if you're not already attending one) and ask for antidepressants. It's obvious that you are in a very deep funk. My doctor explained that, if you go years and years without the external support you need, that you 'feed' off of your body's 'happy' juice, to keep yourself going and to keep from falling apart. But your body produces that 'happy juice' in a normal environment; if you go through a prolonged period of hardship, you basically run out of happy juice - your body simply can't make any more; the well runs dry. Taking antidepressants, even for only a few months, will kickstart that production again until your body picks up the slack and you can stop taking the pills.

Okay. I'm sorry. I didn't mean for you to feel like I was kicking you. Heavens...if you knew me like some do on here, you'd know my intentions were good, but you don't know me, so let's just start over.

Do you have medical insurance/coverage? Are you getting to the doctor's? Is your medication at a therapeutic level? Have you been tested for other things besides fibro in case you have other things going on as well as that?

I don't know a whole lot about it except it's supposedly hard to diagnose and can be very painful and uncomfortable.

I was talking to you like I would have spoken to my sisters, my real sisters. I hope you'll get past my remarks and forgive me for upsetting you. Poor choice of words. I'm actually not usually so brusque. Usually I try to be a bit kinder and diplomatic, but I've been a little stressed myself lately and not feeling very compassionate to anyone - even my poor husband. Hormones maybe? No excuse.

So...let's get to basics. Health care, food, water, a bed to sleep in, being proactive about the legalities of this situation. That may be just about all you can handle right now, so why not allow yourself a few days to get some decent sleep, take care of your grandparents, and regroup emotionally? Maybe you are pushing yourself, like I was pushing you, and it's just too soon.

But having to start over, with such limited prospects and zero confidence everything will turn out ok? It's really damn scary.

I know, Wolf, but what is your alternative to the fright? Probably facing it, right? Seems like you're doing that already.

And here is something to think about...the arrangement with your grandparents - as long as that is something you can physically handle, perhaps that is where you should stay for a while, where you're needed, where you're physically safe, with people who love you. If it gets too hard, you already know there are alternatives for them. Are your own parents around? Any possibility of support in any way from your FOO?

Maybe it is best to make a list, a reasonable list of things to do for the next day or two and just not look beyond it if it isn't an emergency situation.

Thanks for the advice. I was on Pristiq, briefly last spring when I didn't "bounce back" after WH's most recent abandonment/false recovery back in Feb '09. Discontinued in April. Didn't seem to be doing much.

I am now on Savella, for the fibromyalgia. Just starting my second month. It IS helping with the pain. At least that's something, right?

Are you saying I need MORE drugs? David, our IC, insists I'm doing "as well as can be expected" and that my feelings are "normal."

The weather isn't helping. Haven't been able to get as much walking in, and that really seems to help.

I really thought I was doing better, till I found out about his grandpa passing away.

Wolf...how about hot showers/baths and dressing in layers? Does that help? Are you allowed to take something like an Advil or Tylenol PM before bed?

You don't understand why you have nothing when you give and give--time, money, effort.

You mentioned being a codependent, I think? Me, too. If I had to sum up what that means, I would say:

"A codependent takes responsibility for everyone's life except their own."

Do I think you are a lazy whiner? No, and neither did anyone else here say that. But you did. Why?

Why did you stay in an abusive workplace for so long? You were solving your husband's problems (send him to school, etc.), but not your own. Why?

You have health problems, a broken marriage, anxiety about money, but you are taking care of your grandparents? Why?

At a time you are falling apart, you feel competent enough to solve your H's problems, your grandparents' problems, but you question your competency in solving your own problems. Why?

These are not questions that I need to hear the answer to--these are questions you need to ask yourself if you ever want to have a better life.

I know that when I asked myself this same question, I discovered that while I could easily think of ways that others should change their life for the better, when I tried doing that for myself, I saw--nothing. It was literally as if when I tried to work on myself, I did not exist. A very unsettling realization.

Okay dokey. I didn't mean to be cranky. Sorry.


Yes, I have insurance coverage, dental and prescription through him.
Yes, I'm being seen regularly by the doc, as I have been all along. Next appt is early Feb, where we'll be talking about how the Savella is doing.
As far as my meds being therapeutic... it's hard to tell right now with the subzero temps and changing weather overall. This is a recipe for the perfect fibro storm- unchecked stress, horrible weather, extreme cold. It could be once the temps get regulated in the teens and 20's I'll feel better.
I've been screened for a whole lot of other stuff, physically. The docs give me good marks for mental health, saying that I have some "situational depression" but nothing awful.
I'm eating right, and doing my best to exercise as much and when I am able. I sleep between 8-14 hours a day. 8 isn't really enough, and I can go higher if I've done something physically or mentally strenuous.


Seriously... no harm done. No blood, no foul, and really I'm grateful for the point of view and the caring from all of you. I just took exception to people telling me to do stuff I'm already doing, and my perceived assumption (yes, I know... @ss outta me!) that I was being seen as a whiner. Someone else told me that I was wasting everyone's time and it made me see red.
Don't stress over this. YOU are the one doing ME the favor... and I thank you for it.



I've been facing this as a possibility ever since his initial "bomb drop" in Oct of 2008. This is abandonment #3. I'm worn out, heartsore and bereaved... and I have no idea what's going to happen. But I AM facing it.

I used to think women who went after money in a divorce were all just greedy bitches. I had NO frickin idea at all.



It's demanding, physically challenging, and emotionally taxing... plus it makes it hard to do any REAL work, including my business which I'd like to get back on my feet with. The constant interruptions... especially unprofessional ones that make it clear I'm working out of a house and not a business... they cost.
But they do need the help. The only other person in the family that could help them would be my mom, and both of them have begged me NOT to let my mom come! LOL Does that answer your FOO questions?


THAT is a very good idea. I could break some of my bigger goals down into smaller tasks... then do a couple smaller tasks a day. That means one day of planning could yield me a couple weeks worth of little things I can do that will make a difference if I add them up.
I've never gone through a complete lack of confidence like this in my life, ever, and it's really alarming. I've always had this big compass in my head that has pointed me to the most direct path to whatever I wanted. But when I don't know what I want? I got nothin'.

Thank you... that was a great idea!
Wolf, not Cougar
Chel