Dteas- as far as what you should do about custody/visitation. I have seen on here many times the vets tell men NOT to leave their houses. If she wants to move, YOU can't stop her. Also, as I was told "Don't go along with HER easy sleazy Divorce plan." unless that is where you want to go. I am NO vet but there is advice that I have received that made a lot of sense.

And I want to ask about one thing. You say that it will be unfair to her. You will have the kids more while she looks. Do you really BELIEVE that or are you saying it is unfair to YOU. I personally would be OKAY if my WH didn't see my kids, but it would hurt THEM. I am HAPPY to have my kids home with me EVERY night. I never have to worry about their safety when they are with WH but I miss them horribly when they aren't here. I also have to deal with the PAIN when they went to OW house for Christmas Day and I was home ALONE. Who was this unfair to?

Really LOOK at what you want. BE HONEST with YOURSELF and only then can you be HONEST with us so you can get the help you really need.

DT,

How about working out a way that you can both be in the house to give you an opportunity to make Love Bank deposits in person...

Do NOT try to convince her to move back in to "work on the marriage" or any such program of education, pressure or commitment. Just figure out how she can stay in the same house as you "while things shake out."

It gives you a chance to make deposits, show her you are overcoming Love Busters, demonstrate your commitment to the family and children, show that you are by far the better choice over OM or any OM and also helps make it harder for her to run off to be with OM all the time, even via telephone.

There's always plenty of time to get a divorce. But you only have a small window of opportunity to make things work out for your marriage.

Make it so...

Mark

Scotland

Thanks. I didn't get the whole thread thing. I do now. That's why I posted my previous threads. I will stay here, as I think my blaming last week is kind of pivotal, and my biggest opportunity for improvement or LB.

Yes I have been in PPMS. I am hoping dealing with that here will minimize it in my M. The other thing I can't stop doing is crying in front of her or while we're talking. She thinks it's all fake, so I need to get a grip on that too! ( and I have never been a crier)

So thanks for reminding me of what I have to do. Intellectually, I know, emotionally I want to, I just need to get myself under control so I can be consistent for the long run.

I realize that for me, it's mostly about dealing with my stick or even 2x4 to my head for what I have done. But I am a painfully flawed human.... so the occasional carrot will go along way to my endurance. I will look for those from my kids and friends, and if I stumble on the right actions, maybe occasionally here.

Thanks for the BS perspective to help me not fall for my own (bull) thinking. Always feel free to remind me that what I did was not an insult or a disrespect, but was emotional terrorism of the worst kind. Empathy is my friend in all this, thanks for helping me access that.

DT

Here's some extra advice.

Next time you feel like cheating, tell your wife. Then, if the feeling does not go away get a divorce.

*After the divorce you can date and make love with whomever you want to. It will not be cheating at that time. *

Then you will not cheat again.

*edit*

Bubbles4u

Your advice would have been very helpful two years ago. Right now it's like telling someone who is trying to rebuild there house after burning it down, "don't play with matches". And I'll worry about my kids, it's my job. I know I hurt them, but you think adopting them out at 9 and 13 will make it better...really?

DT

Scotland and Mark:

I have begged her to stay in the house. I will continue to try and make it as attractive as possible. I love being with my kids full time, the nights away (all 12 of them) have been horrible. We have been separated now for 25 days, and I have made time to see them 24 of the 25 days. One day I had to travel on business.

And I do mean it is unfair to her, she loves them to and they love her. They need us both, our parenting styles are complimentary, and both kids are happier with us both (wow novel concept huh?). I know I need to worry about what I do and understand I can't control her. But I still worry about her, and worry that she is having trouble being honest with herself. She changes her plans every few days. In fact, I have no idea when she wants to see the kids this week, and I know I'll probably have just a couple hours notice when she decides. After 7 weeks, could this still be a Post-traumatic fog for a BS?

I am still willing to sacrifice my time with the kids if it will get her back to her home. But...if she insists that I give notice, I will not be leaving this house again, as long as I can afford it. It is my dream and wish, that maybe in 6 months or a year or two years, that having our home to come back to will make reconciliation even more appealing. At worse, my kids can spend 1/2 their time in the house they call home.

Keep the advice coming. If you haven't been able to tell. My judgment is questionable.

DT

Perhaps your wife is not only having an affair, but is mentally unstable. People can be mentally stable for years and in a few months (and maybe a few affairs too) become mentally unstable.

Perhaps she is getting into drugs or drinking. You should find out.

Dteas- okay firstly NO BEGGING. Even to try to get her to stay in the house. Secondly, I don't think this is just Post-traumatic fog for her. I agree with what the people have been telling you on here. She was MOST LIKELY heavily involved in an A. You might be in denial about this fact. That's okay, you will accept it eventually. I came here thinking my WH was just having an EA and that he wasn't leaving me for POSOW. A big difference a couple of months and many 2x4s make. I didn't even fully believe he was having SF with her until I read the keylogger. That night was a real eye opener and believe me I made A LOT of mistakes along the way.(my thread is "Ummmmmmm I installed a keylogger and...." if you are free for a few hours to read it hehehehehehe)

I have listened to the vets and advice on here. I didn't always follow what they said to the letter, but I did my best. I originally came on your thread with hopes that I would figure out something from you that would help me in my sitch. I am making my way through old threads and even go in to the recovery section of the boards too to see what can help me.

I think you have to listen to the people on here and read everything you can. Your sitch is harder than most because you have your own A to make up for. You should still follow the advice given to other BH about their WW. Look as far back as you can. Every spare moment should be spent reading up on threads of other people who have done it. This will help you keep your hope and may even give you some other suggestions as to what to do. It will be funny for you to see that these sitch are a lot more a like than you thought and the advice tends to be repetitive. That's good. You will also see that some reactions from your WW are precisely what you should be getting(my WH wouldn't let me touch him without him making a disgusted noise. at first I was hurt but then the vets told me that he should act this way so that I knew I was getting to him in the fog. WHAT? I know they were RIGHT)

Geez would any of you guess that my NUMBER 1 EN is probably COMMUNICATION......hehehehehehehe

Keep HOPE and FAITH alive. That's what I am doing and it is helping me a TONNE.

Take care of those children and Plan A(if done with gusto and correctly) will actually have a side effect. You will feel better about yourself. Sounds against logic and instincts doesn't it? Well, then you know you are right because like Dr.Phil says "And how's that working for you?"

Scotland:

We'll I did ask her to re-think her housing and visitation choice. Not begging, just acknowledging that it was a reaction to my blaming her last Saturday and re-stating my remorse and my commitment to making our original housing / custody plan (kids at the house, wife and I move).

Here was her answer:
"No, I cannot move back into that house. I need to have a space that I do not share with you. I need time and space to heal - to not have your clothes, toiletries, pictures constantly reminding me of the husband and life that I lost. I regret that I cannot have the kids more while here at my moms, but I know they are not happy here.

I am in a very deep depression - haven't been out of bed all day. I am paralyzed by sadness and regrets. I need to work, but can't. Need to find a home where I can have my kids for some of the time. But I also need to be completely free of you and the pain you have caused me. I know I deserve it. But I need time and space to recover the best I can."

Here is my draft response (not stupid enough to not get some input on it):
"I understand...If you need me to remove every piece of evidence that I have ever been here I would do that for you. I owe it to you. I know you are hurting and depressed. I did this to you!!!! You deserve none of this pain, not one iota. I am sorry I tried to place some of my pain on you Saturday. You already had so so much more pain of your own. It's just another enormous regret I have. By the way, you have not lost a husband, I am yours, but I understand if I am now too soiled to want.

I am sorry, but I don't think you can ever really be free of me. I can't just walk away and leave you and the kids alone. I really don't think the kid's want me to either.

So please let me be part of your healing. Somehow, someway. Anyway I can.

Please allow yourself to visit the kids here too. I have meetings Sunday and Tuesday and A and I have basketball Tuesday. If you need to drop by and have me clear out I will. If you need me to bring them by, I will.

I know my stating and re-stating my love bugs you. I'll dial it down a bit this week. But these have been big milestones during the holidays and I just don't feel it's right to let them pass without you knowing that I am aching and miserable too! I know you'll make it through and I'll make it through. I'm just not sure how. But I do believe it would be easier together. That doesn't make me right, but it is what I believe.

I apologize if this suggestions seems arrogant. I just mean it to be helpful. Counseling has been essential for me and the following websites have also been helpful. I am not sure where I would be without them. I know I can't fully appreciate the enormity of the pain you are feeling, I just know it's exponentially more than mine. I fear that it it's tantamount to rape? The second two sites might be "polluted" in the forums and message boards because I have been desperately asking for help to understand my role in helping you heal. They have been very adamant about pointing out my selfishness. The first site looks interesting, I purposely stayed out of the forum thinking you might someday want your own site. The Marriage Builder site has a huge community of betrayed spouses who might be able to offer you some support

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/
http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/

You are not alone. You have friends, family, kids, and even a wayward spouse who love and care about you. There are others who have been through what you are going through too and want to help!

I will do whatever I can to help you. Please don't hesitate to ask. If you can't ask, I'll do the best I can to guess. If I guess wrong, let me know.

Sorry is such a pitifully inadequate word for what I feel.

I owe you so much."


Thoughts? Edits? All are welcome.

DT

What if (the main reason) your wife wants time alone is so that she can continue her affair with the other man?

Wow. I would really like to help you out. DON'T send this YET. Get some vet advice FIRST. Someone will be along to help eventually.

Do you really think that it would be okay for the kids to have the two of you in and out of the house every other week? I know you are thinking about what is best for the kids but really think about it. It is best for the kids that they have 2 parents that are in a HEALTHY MARRIAGE. That may not be the outcome of your M(or mine for that fact) but you have to give it your best shot.

This letter you wrote, it is response to what she said? It is a very LONG response. Not only that but you are making a few HUGE mistakes in it. DJ love busters are all over it. Also there are some SD in there too. You have to have NO LOVE BUSTERS. If you are really going to be in a Plan A, you need to DO IT all or nothing, not HALF-A$$ED.

This is what to Do and NOT do in Plan A


DOs

1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tomorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP

See where you have gone astray in your response to her if you are really in Plan A.

Her depression is not just about your affair either. She thinks it is but it is also about hers. Affairees also feel depression(I know my WH couldn't sleep well and barely ate but OW told me he was "HAPPY").

I am hoping that you will figure out what you can do. The best advice I can give you right now is that even though you are a WH you are also a BH, so you should act like a BH if you have a chance to save your M. I don't have enough experience and knowledge to help you fully but I would suggest that you learn all that you have to or you will have a very slim chance to save your M.

I don't think so - She's staying in the spare room at her Mom's house full of nieces and nephews all of the time. Besides, the OM is in Las Vegas 4+ hours away.

Did you read her e-mail? She believes that if she can get away from me and everything that reminds her of me, she can stop hurting. You all know that won't work. How do you erase 21 years and sharing two kids form your life

The OM is part of a fantasy she runs to to get away from the current painful reality. I totally get it, that's part of what I was doing. Sure doesn't help reconciliation though.

Remember, I learned a lot of deception tricks cheating for 20 months, and hiding my porn for 15 years. I snooped plenty. She had an emotional affair for 8 months before D-day with a friend in San Antonio. And a romantic affair that started on-lineand on the phone one week after d-day and 2 days after "ending the marriage". I don't believe they have done more than make out yet. I think that's why she bailed on her trip to LV this week, why she waffled back and forth, because she knew she was going to be expected to put out and wasn't ready. And I think that's added to her depression, because the fantasy isn't enough to shut out the reality. My wife has a history of emotionally running from her problems, instead of facing them head on. I worry that she'll be able to heal doing that.

But I guess I need to focus on the kids. I can earn DS and FC EN points that way. And I will work on the affection and conversation ones as best I can from a different home. I guess she needs to navigate her own healing?

I just wish she'd let me help.

DT

DT

The response you are considering is riddled with LB's.

Complete re-write would be necessary.

Honestly, I wouldn't send a response at all right now!

DT, let me get this straight. Your BS has offered for you to move home permanently with the kids. She is moving in with her mom. Right?

D, that is so SERIOUSLY wayward fog speak it isn't even funny. You're scr&wed because YOU also had an affair. But you can bet good money she is busy scr&wing her OM, and has been for some time.

You need to read the material here on How to Survive Infidelity, to figure out how to deal with your wife's affair. Because the next thing that's going to happen, if you don't address it, is that she'll gain her wits, kick you out, and move OM in - with YOUR kids.

TOTALLY AGREE WITH CAT.

DTEAS- also, I don't remember, Did you expose? You know that she has had at LEAST one EA. Unfortunately for you, you will also have to be forthright about your own infidelity as well. I wouldn't let that stop me though. I don't really know what advice to give you on what to say/write but it is just a thought.

READ READ AND READ some more. Then when you feel like you have read enough, READ AGAIN

If you are living at home, caring for your kids and the home, you can meet all of her EN�s other than the intimate EN�s .

Domestic Support -
Financial Support -
Family Commitment -
Admiration -
Physical Attractiveness -
Openness and Honesty -


The intimate EN�s of ;

Conversation -
Sexual Fulfillment -
Recreational Companionship -
Affection -

These are a little more difficult no matter where you live, but you will have more opportunities avail by being in the home with the kids. Many opportunities to invite her over, etc. Just do not leave the home when she wants to visit with the kids anymore. She can pick them up and take them to her moms or take them out. That will get old quickly when she knows she can visit with them at your home.

If you really want to work the MB program of PlanA then you need to stop focusing on OM and keep the focus on.......

How
to
STOP
all
LB's

and

How
to
maximize
the
potential
of
meeting
EN's