Opt,

If you DARE do this, I will have to break out my beatin' stick again.

Listen VERY CAREFULLY......you didn't do anything wrong. She will think you did. ALL WAYWARDS think this way.....the fact of the matter is, in a marriage, you SHOULD have access to her emails...PERIOD. And she should have access to yours.

BUT at the moment, you are not dealing with a marriage, nor are you dealing with a sane, normal, fog-free wife.

So, if she brings this up DO NOT APOLOGIZE. You tell her calmly that you are doing what is NECESSARY to save to your marriage. If you apologize, you make yourself the bad guy who did something wrong, which you did not......again...

A good marriage has EP (Extra-Precautionary measures)....those EP'S include access to the other's emails, cell phones, CC's, bank accounts....essentially EVERYTHING

Have you ever talked about the fact that you two should have access to each others email???....this was a very clear BOUNDARY that I started on early. In fact, it was H's REFUSAL to comply with not giving me passwords to emails and phone bills that sent me into my Plan B...which lasted all of 6 days......

No not grovel/apologize/back-peddle....It is very UNATTRACTIVE...

not2fun

Opt,

I agree with not2fun completely. I am in similar situation, but I haven't apologized for my actions to save the M. I keep telling her that I need to do what I need to do just as she needs to do what she feels she needs to do. I tell WW that I understand what she is feeling, but I never apologize. At times I try to explain why I'm doing these things, but she feels I am simply lashing out from desperation. I try not to explain, but she asks some direct questions and I'm trying to be as honest as possible with her. It is very hard.

Keep up your letter campaign and I hope that may also have some affect with your WW.

Okay, Not2Fun. Put away the stick, but please tell me this stuff is a little confusing because I really don't think I'm this stupid.

Let me see if I have this straight:
I'm in plan A and trying to be pretty much be perfect.
So, when I was being told I was in "hot water" I thought that meant I was doing something wrong and would need to apologize. But, snooping isn't wrong, and apologizing is counter productive. So, what I think I hear you saying is getting caught is not advisable and will bring on the hot water.

Obviously giving up the source is counter productive. Which brings up the question that I've had for a while: is there ever a time to give up the info? From what I know of plan B you wouldn't do it in your PBL. Or is it more of on rare occasions "I know you're up to XYZ but I'm not telling you how I know."

I totally understand the EP's. We are so not even close to discussing that yet though, are we? She has yet to really acknowledge the A and from what I can tell is actually trying to foster another one as we speak! EP's seem like something you talk about during Recovery. Help me understand that one.

Umm, no. The last conversation we had even close to this (2 weeks ago after "counselling") was that she needed me to "stop acting so jealous" - obviously now I see that was fog-speak for "I want to continue to pursue outside relationships without you peering over my back and questioning me." Sooo, I have tried to limit my "jealous" behavior and sparingly let her know when I have concerns (like about her wanting to go tanning with OM#2 on Christmas Eve because "he doesn't have anyone and I feel bad for him). I have felt like "acting jealous" would be a LB but I also understand the importance of 'busting up' any potential nefarious activity. Likewise, when I caught them together at the grocery store, I simply let her know that it was very painful for me to see. Believe it or not, I think these minor, subtle reactions do have some affect of at least making her think twice about her "friendship." I am hoping that mixed with a huge carrot of plan A, and further sessions with SH (if she agrees...)will be enough to bring her home.


NotTwoFun, The closest I've come to this is to let her know that I have no secrets and she's free to puruse my computer or phone at anytime. She didn't reciprocate- imagine that!!
But, could you please tell me more about the above quote? I haven't read your whole thread, but are you saying this REFUSAL was what pushed you to your move to plan B?
Here's why I ask:
I think I'm still a ways from plan B. I feel strong enough to endure plan A for some time, although I do plan to seriously evaluate my situation when WW gets home and whether she agrees to further talks with SH will be a big indicator of where the M is at, I think. But I look ahead to possible plan B days (when I just can't continue to plan A her without her committing to the M and start acting like a real wife, without various 'friendships', secret cell phones, private bank accounts, and unaccounted for time). I say possible because I can't see how I can get into a plan B without indisputable proof that she's in a full-fledged A. Most of the folks who have gone to plan B that I read about on this board are dealing with WS's who are actively carrying on their adultery in wide open spaces (I don't know how these BS's find the strength...I feel like a total crybaby comparatively: I have a bonafide WW on my hands but it's nothing like that).

Will I ever get into a plan B on the grounds of "Honey, I love you but I can't keep being nice to you if you continue to use a cell phone without telling me who you're calling. I'll be at the Motel 6 and my IM's are Joe and Sandy...."?

thanks again for all your help.

opt

Limbo, could you elaborate, or is it as simple as the above? I'm having trouble envisioning the conversation. (I don't want to screw this part up if ww brings up the subject of me checking her emails and me going through her texts- which I'm guessing on some level she knows about).

All I can envision is:
ww: "Why are you checking my e-mails! You're treating me like a child!"
me: (in the most loving way possible) "Honey, I'm only treating you like an adultress" (I got that from TTF) "now, you need to do what you need to do to destroy our marriage and carry on your adulterous behavior, and I need to do what I can to save our family; that means I need to know what you're up to behind my back because you have proven yourself to be nothing but a bald-faced lier, okay?"

I'm thinking that's not going to lead to anything good.



Yup, the letters are all sent and hopefully working their magic. Most have a picture embedded, so she has a visual as well - us together, or just me, or me and the kids. A picture is worth a thousand words, hopefully even to a wayward.

opt

A quick answer to a single question: No.

My WW is out of the house and I'm in deep Plan B. She may or may not return (I'm betting not). If she does come back some day, I will NOT give up the source of my info. I got it and she knows it. Knowing I can get it is a barrier for her to think she can get away with it "next time."

Opt, for me it is pretty much that simple. Here is an example of some of our random "discussions" (not in any particular order) on the subject:

ww: Why the hell did you contact OM's sister and tell her all this stuff?
Me: As I have told you before, I will do whatever I feel I need to do to save our marriage and family.

WW: I'm talking to an attorney tomorrow.
Me: I'm sorry to hear that, but you need to do what you feel you need to do. I don't do divorce.

WW: Why do you keep fighting me on this? Why are you doing these things (exposure)?
Me: I'm not fighting you, I'm fighting your adultery. I will continue to do whatever I feel I need to to try to save our marriage and family.

WW: You are desperate. You are just trying to retaliate and you are lashing out at OMs family.
Me: I can understand how you could see things that way, however I don't agree with you. I know exactly what I am doing and why and it is not in any way vindictive or mean. I am simply sharing the truth.

WW: Don't you understand? What you are doing makes me like you less and less. If anything this makes me want a divorce even more. You are trying to control me.
Me: I can't express to you how sad it makes me feel to hear you say that. I know my actions since the shock of the affair have upset you. I need to do what I feel I need to do in order to save our marriage. You need to do whatever you feel you need to do as well. I am not trying to control you.

I can tell you I sound like a broken record at times, but I never apologize. I also try very hard not to say anything too judgmental. I just try to stay calm and 'matter of fact' when we talk about my actions to end the A. It's hard.

I'm not sure if I'm doing it right or not. I'm trying to follow my interpretation of the guidance I've receive on the boards here. If I am doing it right, I hope it may help your sitch. Your suggestions have greatly helped me to deal with mine.

Opt,

I will post more on your questions later once H comes home with the laptop. I can't answer everything you asked on my phone.

I think my saying you'll be in hit water was a wrong choice of words...my bad. Let me correct that.

What I meant is she will be mad at you for changing those passwords. I didn't mean to infer that you were wrong to do that ( though I do think it was wrong to change her FB page.....). She is going to be mad just like she was when you exposed. Just like exposure is not wrong nor should a BS apologize for it, the same can be said for snooping.

You are trying to save your marriage........IF she wasn't trying to destroy it then all of this would be moot.....

Not2fun

Limbo, thanks so much for your input. Those are good �scripts� and I�ll try to keep them in mind. Having concrete examples helps. At this time I feel like I�m getting familiar with the concept and the general idea of the material. But implementing all these ideas is a horse of a different color. It�s really hard.

Not sure where you�ve been with this one, but my W has a particular knack for going on the defensive when she knows she�s got a losing argument (or even when she knows she�s wrong). She was trained by the best and brought up in a household where admitting wrong was a sign of weakness. Not to mention �the best defense is a good offense.� Since she�s a Scorpio, that stinger comes out and she knows just how to punish anyone who questions her motives (again, even when she knows she�s out of line). I think she even wishes she wasn�t that way most of the time, but that�s the way it is. She�s like the scorpion and the frog (do you know that story?). Anyway, these are just musings and have little to do with plan A and what you are suggesting to me. The point is that the responses, and the general approach works against any attack. Because it doesn�t engage in the fight (I think that�s a Zen type thing).

You�ve given me a lot to go on. I was close but I need to stop apologizing. I think I was doing this as a way to gain empathy (yeah, right, empathy from a ww�), but as N2F has been saying, it has a very destructive effect. I remember telling her recently �I�m sorry, but your relationship with Potential OM#2 makes me uncomfortable.� This would probably have been a very effective statement without the precursor of �I�m sorry.� I will try to replace the �I�m sorry� with �I understand your feelings�� As I read in another thread (from a vet) we may be BS�s but we have a right to our feelings too, and I guess the idea is we can express those feelings as long as we don�t throw in the (ever so tasty appearing) LB�s.

I�m still floored by the stuff JL offered in your thread. Amazing. We�re really lucky to be here. So much wisdom.

Thanks again SoL and good luck. Now that the exposure is over, it might seem like there�s a lull. Fill the time with meeting EN�s - Have you made dinner yet!? I�m counting on you! I forgot to tell you I made fried chicken which went over well. But it cost me one of my best shirts- I wanted to look good doing it, but wound up with all grease stains! Next time I�ll cook shirtless ( I lost the beer belly from quitting drinking and and being on the My-wife-is-having-an-affair Diet, so I might as well take advantage of it!).

opt

Thanks Fred. I think I'm starting to catch on.
With the "intel gathering" I've been real tentative because it's so not my nature to be sneaky (part of why I made a crappy wayward). Until the recent discussion here I was also paralyzed with fear about getting caught peering at her computer and stuff. I would literally be shaking just checking her e-mail, while she was at work and I'm the one that picks her up, so I knew she couldn't just show up.

Now I will feel a little more calm and collected about it. It's not wrong. It's necessary. It's not a LB per se. And a pat response like the ones suggested by Limb and others I think I can handle. As long as I remember I might be sneaking around a little but for the right reasons (not to destroy the M like a wayward does, but for the exact opposite reasons), I'll be okay.

I watch your thread a lot, Fred. You're growing in so many ways. You're an inspiration to me. Did you know I quit drinking (Nov 22)? I have some questions about that I think you would be able to answer for me. If you would be interested and you could pm me about it, please do. I understand if not - you have a lot on your plate and I'm by no means in any sort of a crisis here.

opt

I personally think Scorpio's are just very PASSIONATE.....

You are being much TOO harse on poor Scorpio's....

not2fun

Hey opt - I went on one of those diets too! Lost 15 lbs, and I feel a whole lot better. Who says there's no silver lining to this cloud?

I'm still following your thread, just not posting often. You're doing great. Keep it up, my friend. Good things will happen.

Opt: I am doing whatever is necessary to save our marriage.

WW: You're disrespecting my privacy!

Opt: I am doing whatever is necessary to save our marriage.

WW: I hate you! You're trying to control me!!

Opt: I am doing whatever is necessary to save our marriage.

Get the point? Don't engage. Leave out the DJs. Don't reveal your sources. Maybe someday, 2-3 years down the road in recovery you can tell, but for now, you don't.

TooFunny, not2fun.

Sounds good, Princess. Thanks so much. That makes it easy.
When I first started with plan A and stuck with a lot of "reverse fog talk" ww accused me of being a robot. It hurt a lot and I thought I was doing something wrong (of course that was her intention). Now, a few weeks later, I'm seeing it's a good thing to be accused of robotic speech patterns by a wayward. I'll go back to that when needed.
Okay, I get it. I'll put it out of my mind, and continue to keep my records well hidden (out of the house).
thanks again meggy.

opt

Linus, I'm so happy to see you're over on the R board. Haven't had time to check the thread, I know it's only 2 pages, but I'll get to it later on.
Psyched for you and your wife! And you know I'll be watching your every move and reading what the vets have to offer you since that's where I hope to be eventually. (always good to look ahead when I can)

opt

Gotta defend my peeps!!!!.....(as a whole, not them wayward ones.... ;))

not2fun

You know, I've never put much time into astrology. But with all this new appreciation for how M's work, I'm inspired to look into it a little more - maybe I will learn something more about my wife; and that can't be a bad thing.

Update:
WW was able to get onto a computer from Buenos Aires where they will depart for Ushuaia and then Antarctica. Luckily I was able to get a short chat in with her (and DS on a separate computer at the same time). She sounded good.
[NotTwofun - don't kill me, but I never got around to undoing her FB profile pic] She did not say anything about FB. And in a FB message (inbox) she told me "I'm having trouble getting into my e-mail so we will use FB to communicate when we can." I don't think she suspects anything. Meanwhile I was able to see her activity b/c her computer at home was still also logged in. Of course, she also tried to chat with "potential OM#2/"friend."" That really sucks! Fortunately he was apparently not on-line. I didn't see any messages to him though, so that's good I guess.
Anyway, now that it seems I have a for-sure way to communicate, I'm updating her on the activities of me and daughter(8) as much as I can. That way WE stay in her head and hopefully clear whatever fog is lingering (I've lost track of who she's foggy for, or if it's just general fog).

opt

I'll put it away for NOW...but don't think I can't whip it out in a jiffy.....as far as confusing, no this stuff is not confusing, but it may be MY delivery that is confusing (I'm not as well versed as some of the others on here....)


Again, for clarity....You didn't do anything wrong (EXCEPT change the FB page...but even that was rather minor...). Snooping is not wrong just like Exposure is not wrong. You don't apologize when you haven't done anything wrong.....

YOu pat answer to everything..."I doing what is necessary to save my marriage..."

Yes, she may hate it....she may TRY to get you to think this is a LOVE BUSTER, but as long as you don't deliver it in an LB manner such as an Angry Outburst, Disrespectful Judgement, ect, than you are golden.....


There may be a time, but I couldn't tell you when that is....I did WAY TOO EARLY...we hadn't been in R (I thought we were WELL on our way...we weren't). Unfortunately, I am unsure of that answer....ask Steve...


Why not??...It is never too early to start discussing these. Once I read about these in SAA, I started bringing this up, early and often. Of course, the WS won't AGREE to them, but that doesn't mean you can't start putting feelers out there about them. How else is she supposed to learn about them???...of course, you could leave this up to Steve as well....

Like I said, I started letting him know I wanted his passwords to emails, phone accounts, and such early on. Of course he balked and refused, but I was letting him know what it was going to take to feel safe againn....



yes....fogbabble for sure....you are getting the hang of this....


Sounds about right...If you are constantly hounding her, that does become an LB...

I do want you to know that it is okay to express your hurt and pain though. In a NON LOVE BUSTING manner....you just state that xyz behavior hurts you, and then drop it....


Sounds about right for you at this point....


Yes.....Long story short...I had busted H and OW together. Exposed to her H. Then for the next 6 weeks, he wouldn't give up any passwords or such so I could verify NC, which of course was because there was NO NC. They were still in contact (FYI, OW lived in Florida, while we are in the mid-west...I had the luxury of this being a long-distance affair. Made things easier on my end....). So, after weeks of craziness, I went into Plan B. For 6 days.....


This would be good for you to discuss with Steve. My sitch was a bit more cut and dry than yours, but I completely understand your concerns.....sorry I couldn't help you more...

And yes, your wife MAY not be in an active affair (though *I* am not convinced of this....), she is still VERY WAYWARD.....

not2fun

ps....I'm not into any astrology stuff either....just giving you a hard time....

N2Fun, you are theeee best. Thanks for clarifying and taking the time out for me.
Off to NYE celebrations with daughter(8) and her little friend. Snow, Parades and Fireworks.
WW was happy to hear of our plans, so this all counts as Plan A activity!

Happy New Year to all.
opt

opt - I posted this in reply to your post on my thread, then realized it really belongs here . . .

Thanks opt. You will be on this R forum soon too. I just hope I stay here!

I really hope things go well while WW is on the trip. It may end up being a very good thing.

I think I understand the marathon concept. I just have to keep reminding myself. That's one reason I try to get on this site every day. I once ran in Boston. I jumped in to run the last 9 miles with a friend (ok, I cheated). Coming in to Kenmore Sq is awesome, even if I didn't run the whole thing. (I have completed a 1/2 marathon though)

Keep working Plan A my friend - it will work!

Happy New Year to you too - '10 just has to be better than '09, right?