For brevity here are my other threads. I am WH. Dday 11/11/09

I cheated but want to reconcile, she doesn't
My BS(now WW) is leaving today to visit new OM

Last Saturday, the day after Christmas I called a phone number of a suspected EN of my BS wife which was going back 8 months before Dday. I had had the number for six weeks, but Saturday I couldn't resist my urge. I called and confirmed who the phone belonged to, it was who I suspected. All I asked was, "when you were talking to my wife about our relationship, did you ever suggest counseling?" He had. I believe my wife that it was completely non-sexua, but we all know those emotional relationships are very risky.

See (not important to my BW at this point), I asked my wife to go to counseling twice before I started cheating, and once when I was trying to stop. I was denied each time, and I still harbor resentment about that. I know it's because accepting the full blame for the devastation of my choice to cheat was just too much for me last weekend. I was weak and selfish, not the person I have been working so hard on becoming.

She called me very upset when she found out I had called her "friend". I didn't want to have the conversation because I was in the car with the kids, but she persisted, so I finally lost it and said, "I just want to know how long you have had one foot out the door, 2 years, 5 years, 8 years?" .."When did you actually stop loving me? How long has it been?".. She answered, "I don't know it's not like a spigot that you just turn on and off".. That comment still haunts me. When I got back from my trip, she wrote me an e-mail and said that she always loved me and still does. That she just can't trust me, and just can't work on being together.

So here is the thing. I am so wrapped up in what she is doing... in my disappointment, that I lose track of what I need to be doing. I know that all I can do is be a man worth staying married to. Making her face her "contribution" when she is still in such pain was very wrong, and I see that now. She has owned up to her contribution, but at what costs? I did protect my wife and her feelings, rather, I dragged her through the mud with me.

Any thoughts on how I can apologize for last week? I have tried a couple times. I told her that she wasn't to blame, problems in the relationship don't justify cheating, nothing does. But I realize now, I have violated her once again. Now I have given her the shock of cheating, and the demoralization of "maybe I deserve this pain since I am such a bad wife."

It was so foolish and selfish.

Now, for all my plan A work, I am in even deeper! Crap!

Thoughts?

DT

You cheated, she cheats too? And you have precious kids??

You guys need to grow up and quit the selfish behaviors. /get counseling immediately and QUIT THE CHEATING AND HOING!!!!

Bubbles:

I'm done cheating, forever.

She doesn't think she's cheating since she ended the marriage 11/16 in her mind.

I am in counseling, a twelve step program, church, DivorceCare Ministry, anything that can help me understand how I allowed myself to drift so far from my values.

But I can't get her to do anything.

Thanks for the advice, but I need something more concrete. If it were that easy we'd be reconciled already. I need to find a way to crack her resolve and allow herself to take the risk of even exploring the hard work of reconciliation. She seems so afraid that working toward reconciliation is a sign of weakness.

Wake up calls are a b*tch? But probably a cake walk compared to her nightmare I imagine?

It's not within your power to "make" her do anything. You had an affair and she decided she was done with you. That is not an unreasonable decision for her to make under the circumstances even if it is unwise.

Work on yourself and make yourself into someone she may consider wanting to be married to.

You cannot control her behaviour. You shattered the vows and the marriage the day you cheated and she owes you nothing.

Kahuna:

"make" is a bad choice of words..and it smacks of control. I wish I could influence or persuade her to give us a chances. I honestly believe if she could see my heart, she'd be willing to try.

But how can I expect her to trust what she sees, when I deceived her like I did?

DT

But she can't see your heart - she can only see your actions. So I repeat - Make yourself into someone she would want to be married to.

Kahuna:

I have busted my hump. I have made a commitment to change, I am taking concrete steps. But I need to rein in my fear and resentment. Because all that work can be unraveled in a heartbeat, when I react out of resentment and fear.

How do I stay on course? I know I have to be patient, but it's so hard when she seems to pulling even farther away

By acknowledging that you have no control, that you may indeed suffer the biggest consequence of all - losing her. Once you can accept that, you can act without fear.

Do I work a plan A?

Do whatever I can to meet her EN? Express my love for her continuously. Be a great Dad, a cooperative ex. And let her heart decide for itself?

I do believe she still loves me. She just sees that love as dangerous and weak, because it set her up for such pain.

I have been thinking that I need to act as if she is already gone, and show her that I still love her, even if she can't forgive me. Because it's true. She will always be family, always be the mother of my children.

DT

I am a FWW, and one thing that struck me in your post is the idea that even though repentance and resentment start with the same letter, that is ALL they have in common. I believe that part of repentance is seeing your sin the way God sees it. That is a crushing and humbling experience. Once I saw that, any thoughts I had about my H or what he may or may not have done just diappeared. In light of my own choice and what it cost Jesus and what it might cost my family, I had no resentment left. I did have fear, but like Cat said, I realized I had no control over the outcome of my choice.

I am not saying you need to perform an exericse in beating yourself up; that really doesn't help anything. But, for a time at least, I think keeping the truth of your own choices ever before you will help you. There's just such a humility and willingness to do whatever is necessary that comes from that kind of honesty. There are really only a few things you can do that might influence how she sees things. Complete honesty, no blameshifting or "clarifying",and changed actions every day. Add to that the magic ingredient - TIME - and things may get better. And time means months and months, not weeks.

Marital recovery can happen. Many here, including my own marriage, are proof of that. But understand that your life has changed forever. It can be good, even better. But this isn't a band aid or an antibiotic. This is a radical new lifestyle that you walk in every single day.

Yeah that's the excuse most give for cheating. Bet your wife is saying the same thing to someone this very day.

You've bee working at this for what, a month?

How many years did it take to reach the point where your marriage was pretty much trashed? You don't think a few weeks is going to fix all that, do you?

So now make the change...

Good. Continue the process. That's what all of this is; it's a process, not a step but a series of steps. None of them can be short-cut and none of them can be skipped. Just like your 12 step program, each step you take is for a reason and you can't take the next step until you have COMPLETED the current step.

DT, there is nothing in all of this that is magic. There are no magic bullets, magic potions, magic words or incantations or magic tricks that will solve this for you.

Based on what you have said in your threads (and you might want to keep one thread so that your story remains intact for future reference by you and others who might find themselves in the same circumstance) I keep looking at the timing in all of this and just KNOW that your wife was already hotly involved with this OM BEFORE she found out you were cheating. In fact, her affair (at least an EA) might predate your own affair.

But whether you or her cheated first, the solution from your POV is the same. You give her a reason to want to be married to you.

You don't tell her that reason.
You don't point that reason out to her.
You don't ask her to see it.

You make yourself the husband she always really wanted and let her see that over and over again. Turn DT into the absolute best DT that can be and wait for her to notice the change.

You can't educate her into staying married.
You can't coerce her into staying married.
You can't trick her into staying married.

Give her a reason to remain married to you.

I'm just guessing here, but I'd put money on her affair already being in the works before you cheated or at least before she found out about your cheating. She was already cake eating, not really wanting to end the marriage but emotionally involved with OM. Your affair gave her something she could use to openly justify what she was already doing. She got a "Get Out of Jail Free" card. She can suddenly do what she was wanting to do all along without having to even feel guilty about it. She can avoid the wrath of friends, family and even God in her thinking because you got caught. Now she can openly pursue a relationship with OM and keep you in the position of "bad guy."

But again, the answer is still the same. You Plan A until you have little left and then if necessary Plan B until you've given up any logical reason for hope.

The only other way to approach it is really to do one of two things. You can divorce now or you can go about your own cheating and see where the destruction happens in both of your lives.

Just remember that you have kids you need to think about. What do you think would be the best thing for them? I'll answer that for you; the best thing for your kids would be a Mom and Dad in love with each other, working with each other and making a home that is safe, secure and a demonstration of real love.

So...

Plan A:

Meet her ENs as much as she allows (I know it's hard when she isn't there)
Track down and destroy all Love Busters in your life.
Expect nothing at all when it comes to reaction from her.

It will be you doing something expecting her to respond a certain way and then not responding like you expected that will zap your energy, strength and resolve. Just meet her ENs, avoid Love Busters and understand that the process works even when you can't see it working.

Have you seen the commercial (I think it's for beer) where a group of boats gather around and folks start throwing stuff into the water in the middle of the ocean. They drop rocks, sand and all sorts of stuff and eventually they have built an island on which they then plant trees and other plants and then have a party.

That's what this process is like, DT. You are starting with a vast expanse where nothing exists and trying to build an island. Keep dropping stuff into the water and eventually you'll see the fruit of your labor. Just understand that at first it will all seem to vanish without so much as a ripple. Keep doing it until it pays off with the result you desire.

Just like building an island from nothing, you build a base, deposit fill on top of that and then eventually get around to planting stuff that grows. Stop Love Busters, fill her Love Bank by meeting ENs and sooner or later you'll have a place to plant a marriage that will stand out as a symbol of your efforts. Not just rocks, not just sand, but both, layered one on the other until the whole is made strong enough to stand on its own.

Mark

Lurioosi2

Thank you. Intellectually I know that resentment and impatience are my enemy. Emotionally, I can't always bear that I murdered my marriage and threw a grenade in to my family. I spend most of my time trying to help my wife as much as she will let me, and my kids. It is the best relief of my pain to help relieve theirs.

But then the reality that, no matter how hard I try, the pain for all 3 of them is much to great for my small gestures to have much impact. When I see the anguish on my wife's face, the fear on my kid's, and knowing I did that to them is so hard. That's where I backslide...but I really want to wear and totally own the blame and responsibility.

I wish there was a way as people approached that line where they feel entitled to an affair, that they could see what the true devastation of that decision will be.

I am resolved to be the best man I can be this year. I come to MB to help remind me that my pain is just punishment and my wife's pain and my kid's pain is totally unjust. And that I need to step up and help all three of them with every once of energy and resolve I have.

DT

DT, You have done a few weeks of work. You have NOT busted your hump, what you did is busted your marriage and destroyed your wife in the process. YOU unraveled your entire marriage and when you accept this, you will be able to move forward without fear and with a contrite heart. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but it's reality DT.

This idea that you need to rein in your fear and resentment or all your work is could come unraveled is way over the top for me. You need to stop this crap. It's a case of poor me's. PLEASE stop it! Re-read your own words. YOU are determined to make this your wife's fault if you fail. Do you see this?? You are refusing to be humble and accept ALL the responsibility for the consequences you now find yourself facing.

So far your wife knows about your multiple A's...... you say if she could see your heart she would give this a chance??? I'm sad to say, but this is erroneous thinking at best. If your wife saw into your heart she would also see all the crimes you have committed during the last few years, I mean blow by blow playback of the porn, sex, fantasies about others, masterbation, elicit e-mails, manipulative conversations with OW's, lie after lie you told her, etc. etc. etc. she would be vomiting daily for weeks. a couple months of change won't undo this!

I really question whether you have acknowledged the depth of the destruction you've caused to your wife. You would NOT be writing posts like these if you have.

Taking the steps necessary to recover a marriage is a process, Not an event.... so take a breath and begin putting a plan down on paper, or even better yet, on the forum for feedback. You will get much help!




BigK gave you some simple, sound advice. Follow it!

You must be patient with your wife/betrayed spouse(BS), while making all the changes necessary in your own life ASAP. As BigK said..... ACTIONS!

I think you are expecting unrealistic results in a very short time. You crushed her life as she knew it, and want to offer her an apology, then expect her to fall into your arms and tell you everything is OK.

Not going to work that way!

Your life is showing your BS that you are 1. sorry, 2. remorseful, 3. able to be that man/husband you should be EVERY SINGLE DAY FROM NOW UNTIL IT WORKS.

This process is not a sprint, it is a long, grueling marathon, and you need to set your sights on proving to her you can do the long, tedious work of showing YOUR COMMITMENT to the marriage. That's all you can do...control you!

All this on blind faith that it will work, in hopes she will return to the marriage.

Stop believing you can "make" her do anything. Believe that your words mean NOTHING to her. Believe that your ACTIONS, and ONLY your actions will show your commitment to the marriage.

And avoid Love Busters at all costs.

Mark:

Thanks, your advice is great.

I do want to defend my wife. I am certain my wife has had an EA with a different married OM for 8 months before D-day. I am certain the new OM just filled the huge crater of insecurity I created with my cheating. In her eyes, she has always "needed" a man. He discovered his wife in bed with another man 9+ years ago and they had this instant bond. But you are right, my wife sees nothing wrong with what she is doing, except...she hasn't told her family or therapist. Just a couple friends. But I created the fertile ground for an EA by withdrawing in to my fantasy cheating world. And I created the soil for the new OM, by the devastation I caused. I am not saying it's right...but I think owning my full responsibility is understanding that I am complicit in those things that I resent. Resentment and fear make plan A so hard. So remembering I did this to myself takes the focus off of her actions and back on what I need to do. Right?

The part I like about the "marathon" thought process is the reality that even if we never reconcile, we will forever be connected through our kids. Even if my wife can never let me back in to her heart, loving her is the best for the kids. When I focus on this, it helps me have less fear and more patience.

Sorry for all the threads. I had different questions, but I guess asking them within the same thread is best?

DT

Your post has bothered me since I first read it. You were very wrong to do what you did, but I believed form the first that she had her own affair going simutaneously as you were in yours. I also believe she's been physical the whole time. You need to push away the poor me's and really snoop. I believe I'm right based on what you've sais.

A woman doesn't leave her family as fast after discovery as yours did. You've just given her cover to come out in the open.

Mark and Shattered Dreams

Thanks. I know I have been throwing myself a pity party and I have been impatient. Hey...since I finally know what I want and value everybody else should be on board right? Self-centeredness dies a hard death sometimes.

That's why I come here. I need you to keep me on track and help me see when my internal conversations are heading me down the wrong track. And I need to avoid LBs like last Saturday when I unraveled weeks of EN deposits in 15 minutes of blaming!!

My current dilemma is this. Our initial custody/visitation plan (her plan) was for her and me to have the kids alternately at our home. I rented a room 12/6 where I would sleep when it was her turn, and then she would go to her mom's when it was my turn.

Sunday, after my Saturday stupidity. She asked me to move home with the kids, and went to her mom's. She wants me to keep the house because I can afford it and she wants to find her own place. Of course, if "I can afford it", I can afford to let her stay here. I already told her I would make whatever changes she needs to be comfortable with the original plan. I have also offered to let her stay home the entire month of January and visit the kids as she sees fit while spending the night at my room.

I do believe our initial plan is best for the kids. And then we can move in the summer when the kids are out of school and she and I would both have time.

Secondly, it seems so unfair to her. I will have the kids more while she looks. I will have the big house, the pool. Should I:

1. Remind her that if we can afford for me to be in the house, we can afford for her to be in it?

2. Should I make another offer for her to move back here for the entire month. And I'll have visitation as she indicates but will help in every way she feels comfortable letting me?

I have to give notice on my room today.

Thoughts?

DT

Read my post and wake up!

Okay, I have been reading this NEW thread today. Firstly, for all of us on here please keep only ONE thread. It is really hard to remember every thing about your sitch and it seems that you re-edit your sitch every time that you start a new thread. When my SIL was ACTIVE in her A she used to do this too. Whenever she talked to someone and they questioned her, the next person she told she added the changes so no one would ask the same questions. Problem is, people talk. On here, we can go back and read what was previously written but if you really want HELP in SAVING your M and not just people telling you what you want to hear, KEEP IT TO ONE THREAD.

Enough of my ranting on that, let me get to what is going on now. First, you had this conversation with your wife on the phone a WEEK ago and NOW you are talking about it? Have you actually read anything about Plan A? Have you read other people's threads to see what you should do in Plan A? Are you willing to do ANY of the work or are you looking for a QUICK FIX?

Let me tell you there is NO QUICK FIX. There are times you are going to come on here for advice and NO ONE will be around. Then what? Throw all of your work away and ask for forgiveness on here and say "I tried. I did my best. SHE threw it away."

You said that you talked to OM on the phone and asked if ever suggested counselling and he had. OM tend to. So do OW. At first, when an EA start, they are "just friends" and they also don't want to LOOK like a bad person. EN aren't being met in M and they get met through the A. Did you read SAA? HNHN? ANY of the articles and stuff on here? There is a basic concept of affairs that you have to understand. Maybe you are going by your own experience in the affairs that you had as a template to how you think hers is. Well as a BS, I don't understand any of what my WH is feeling. It is FOREIGN to me because it is NOTHING I have experienced myself. Her A is DIFFERENT from yours.

If you are going to go into a SOLID Plan A, you need to STOP blaming your BWW. You can have those feelings, you can even VENT about them on here, but they have to be pushed aside for the betterment of your M. Look at it from your BWW point of view. WHY would she WANT to me MARRIED to YOU?

Look at some of the things you have posted just in THIS thread. You try to show us that you want to take responsibility for your actions but you are constantly talking about YOUR relief of pain. How YOU feel about what is going on in your M. How you want to make your wife see things your way. SELFISH WH FOG BABBLE. PPMS(Poor Poor ME Syndrome). This is what I have experienced in the last 4 M that have been affected by A's in MY family in the last 4 years.

Just in the post I am reading above this marathon post I am writing(sorry all but these things NEED to be said) I see you start with "I do want to defend my wife." and then you don't ACTUALLY defend her. Contradicting isn't it? If this is the way you talk and act towards HER, NO WONDER she has no clue what you are doing.

Re-Read Plan A, SAA, Basic concepts, Love busters, EVERYTHING you can. While at the same time be the most LOVING, caring thoughtful H EVER. Get some pocket responses on what to say when you don't want to Love bust but still get your point across. I don't know what will be the best since I am dealing with a WH not a WW. Always remove yourself if you feel like you can't keep YOURSELF under control and you may hurt your chances at recovery. For me, whenever I felt the Love BUSTER coming I would think, "Do this one thing and I have thrown away the last 3 weeks of PAIN and AGONY I went through. If I do this then I should have just forgot about it a long time ago. DON'T DO IT."

I used to just go out and drive to a place where I could YELL and SCREAM and noone would hear me and I would BLARE the radio so loud and SCREAM the words so that my voice would be gone. Then after a half an hour I would come home and be able to deal with another hour of Plan A. But just so you know, Plan A is the EASIEST part. Plan B is harder still and I have been told that R is even HARDER(although I am HOPING that I will get there because to me it will be all worth it).

Sorry for the HUGE NOVEL post. I was feeling a bit WORDY today ;D