Scotland:

Wow..lots to think about. As the WH, I have been told by BS that I need to be apologizing, accepting blame, that I need to be demonstrating my love not just saying it.

I am not comfortable with taking on the BH role yet, when I have been a terrible WH for 20 months. Sure I have been clean for 7 weeks..big hairy deal.

I think I may need a hybrid strategy, and I am paralyzed about how that is going to work. But I do believe that someone has some pertinent advice. How to blend the necessary . I feel like I am walking a tight-rope.

I look forward to what ever advice I can get.

DT

DT:

Stop wondering or presuming WHY your BWW didn't go to LV. Your statement that she didn't go because she was going to have to put out was insulting to her, and probably indicates why you are having such trouble.

She didn't go to LV because she didn't go. You do NOT know, and you may not ever know. But quit speculating. It does you no good, and colors your actions with her.

Your conversation that you had with her, that you started this thread with, was one that you needed to have. You two have to talk about the things that went wrong in your marriage and pushed you away from each other.

The "friend" called your BWW immediately and told her what happened, didn't he? That is why she called you. Upset that you uspet her BF. Now, you have in some small way a taste of being the betrayed one. Therefore why you exploded at her.

Then, you ask this stupid question:

You have alot more than last week to apologize for, so don't worry about it so much. You said already that you were wrong, work on all the other things that make a difference.

Plan A
Work on yourself
Blow up her Affair
You have been destroying your family for 20 months. You have only been working on it for 7 weeks. Give it time to sink in.

LG

Ok

Plan A I get. I was making it too complicated Plan A is the best approach for any spouse dealing with their spouse who is reluctant to stay in the marriage. In this sense, my wife and I exchanged places, even though I am the WH (or was, crap this stuff is confusing)

I buy in to the Plan A and EN. Not that it comes naturally. I'd love to have a plan I could believe in.Scotland has a list of Dos and Don'ts for Plan A. I certainly don't find it in SAA in all of my re-reads. Really? No I love you? I know actions speak louder. And SAA doesn't even offer a hint of how a WS should fight to win-back the BS who decides to leave. Doesn't that type of Plan A have to be different in someway? And I just don't see how exposing my wife's A isn't going to be seen as judgmental score evening given how terrible my behavior was?

So Plan A yes. Meet ENs yes. I have a head start. I am now the primary parent for the kids. I am taking care of the house, the kids, the animals.I make sure the kids call their Mom. I am doing the work of making sure the bills are paid. I have dropped 26 lbs in 7 weeks and I am at my lightest since 1992. I am attending Church, doing more with friends and family. She thinks all the "self-improvement" is an act. Maybe that's good? Because that means it doesn't jibe with the image of me she has to make leaving me seem right.

I need help on the affection and conversation ENs with her living somewhere else. I have tried gestures. Yesterday I took her clean clothes, a bottle of Cabernet, and dark chocolate. We have had some moments of good non-relationship small talk this week. But only a few minutes.

And, I guess I still have LBs I don't see that way until pointed out to me. Please point those out in my draft letter. I really only see two. "I know it bugs you" and " I apologize if this sounds arrogant"

And exposing her affair? Who do I expose to? Her Mom, family? How? "I am very sad, you know I am trying to reconcile, and because J has entered an affair of her own, I am not sure we will be open to working on saving our marriage."? Do I expose to her friends? I call the guy and calmly let him know, " I am trying to save my 18 year marriage and preserve an intact family for my two kids. I know you have kids or your own, and you know better than I do, how hard a divorce is on kids. Don't you think the right thing to do is to remove yourself from the equation while we work on our marriage. Don't you think it would be better if you two at least waited until the ink is dry on divorce papers?"

And when my wife goes absolutely ballistic, stops playing nice, gets a lawyer. What do I say then to take care of her ENs? How do I explain why I did what I did?

I ask because I don't get it and I want to understand.

Thanks
DT

Every wayward threatens lawyer. Ignore it.

Yes, you expose to her parents, siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, priest, and best friends. You ALSO expose to HIS parents, siblings, cousins, etc. Your sitch is a little different, because WHEN you expose, you will also have to admit to them that YOU also had an affair; admit your M is screwed up, but you've been given a wakeup call and you are focusing on fixing your marriage, and you can't while they are seeing each other.

If you approach the OM, I've found that the best approach is to scare the hell out of him. NOT threaten him, but appear very very smart, strong, and lawyered up. Tell him you WILL be subpoenaing him as a witness if she divorces you.

It's pointless to meet her ENs if you don't really know what they are. If she likes flowers, don't waste your time fixing the sink, kwim? Go to the main subjects on this website and read everything. First you stop Love Busters. Ask her to fill out the LB questionnaire so you'll know what you do wrong. If she won't try to do it on your own. Spend a LOT of time concentrating on NOT LBing her. Once you get that down, ask her to fill out the EN questionnaire. Meet the top 5 ENs she lists; nothing more.

Women take a LONG time to trust a man again. LONG time. She will not believe you are 'changed' for at least a year. Get over it.

DT,

Read the first couple of pages in my Musings thread linked in my sig line.

You might also want to look at the Trouble Shooting and Repair link as well.

You don't have to avoid ever saying ILY to her but you don't want to end up as a whining, sniveling, crawling mess of tears and begging. Following her around telling her "ILY" is going to drive her away because it won't be something she finds very attractive.

So don't tell her that you love her; show her that you love her.

Actions will speak much louder than words and she will remember those actions long after the echo of the words has died away.

The whole point is that before the affair you probably told her maybe once per day that you loved her, and likely mostly out of habit like at the end of a phone call. Once you find yourself fighting for your wife's affection against some hidden adversary you tend to keep saying it 50, 60, 100 times per day. Frankly you didn't show it for a long time so saying it 100 times now is going to cause her to equate it with you trying to coerce her into staying. If you really love her, then show her by what you do.

Meet her ENs.
Avoid Love Busters.

Mark

I think you are getting some great advice. I will say this. Nothing yo do to try to convince, dramatize, guilt, persuade, o educate your wife into doing or feeling what you think she should do or feel will work. None of it. She doesn't need a therapist, another parent, or an intervention speciaist. She needs to see your actions - te ones you have been advised to take here.

If exposing her in light of what you did bothers you, then expose yourself too. if it is okay for a BS to honestly expose adultery to the light, then why not a repentant WS? Just make sure that whatever exposure you do is filled wit facts and a desire to focus on the M. Don't spin your own actions or hers.

And as far as not reading some of this stuff in SAA goes, a lot of the advice comes fom people here who have been to MB weekends and have access to the private forum with Dr. Harley. So just because it isn't between those book ocvers doesn't mean it doesn't work. If yo wonder whether something is MB, just ask. The vets will tell you.

And take heart. I have two wonderful children who are loving, bright, respectful, and as well adjusted as preteens can be. And I am a FWW. They know the truth, and neither of them has robbed a bank yet! You can still be a father. I even have bipolar disorder. There is a lot more to being a parent than being a paragon of perfection, thank goodness!

Oh, and I can't type, but God loes me anyway!

IMO you just need to not write anything in response to this because it would go against Plan A(which is where you are supposed to be). Don't give in to the arguments. Let her vent to you and write what she wants but understand that it is not just coming from a BS but is also coming from A fogbabble.

As far as the Do's and Don'ts list that I posted, I just copied it from my own thread that a vet had advised.

I don't by any means want to come across as saying that you don't have a really hard battle ahead of you by telling you to act like a BH. All I meant was that if you really want to have a chance at saving your M, you would have to do what a BH would do, with the modification of also being a WH.

Exposure is going to be a little more difficult for you because you are going to have to admit fully to your own failings in your M but it will be better for you in the long run. It is also part of your consequences for YOUR actions.

Your WBW may never come around, but doing things with the advice that you gain here will be your best chance to save your M. Plan A to the fullest extent and make sure that you stop listening to your own instincts, they tend to lead us astray sometimes.

Thanks everyone:

Some clarification. I have no fear of outing my cheating. I have been forthcoming with everyone. There are a few remaining acquaintances who would be surprised. I felt it was a necessary part of committing to changing myself. And part of "just compensation" so people would understand my BS desire to end the marriage.

Second. I did not have an A. I had 20 months of escalating disgusting sexual behavior including cybersex, two one night stands and a brief affair. In my fog, I rationalized my behavior because I worked to make sure I did not fall in love. My wife has said that she may have forgiven an affair, but that my behavior is too much. Too risky. And she can't believe I can change.

Third. My wife has said she entered her new long-distance affair as a way to save her life. She has explicitly stated that the marriage is over, it's too late to work on the problems, and that I am not to contact her family and friends. We have not slept under the same roof since 12/5. We only communicate by text, e-mail and occasionally on the phone and in person. Blowing up her A will be seen as selfish and vindictive by her, more proof that her feelings and needs do not matter to me.

Thus my reluctance to blow up her affair. I know she spends 1-2 hours a day on the phone with OM. I know she has had two dates. I know she was planning to visit him for New Year's, but changed her mind. So do I have enough facts to blow it up? Or will I sound like I am begrudging her a friend to talk to, one who understands her (his marriage ended when he discovered his wife in bed with an OM)? This is a gun I can't unfire once I pullthe trigger. So I am waiting for some more input from folks who may have been through something closer to the mess we are in.

But I do see the simple beauty of plan A:

I believe I do understand her ENs. Her top are affection, admiration, conversation and family commitment.

Family commitment is in play now as she has placed me in the role of primary parent for now. The others are a challenge at a distance. There are a few conversation opportunities, I will remove relationship discussions as much as possible. When she wants to talk about how miserable she is, what should I do? How do I demonstrate affection at a distance without burying her in ILYs? The kids and I took her clean clothes, wine and chocolate after seeing Avatar on New Year eve. Is that affection? And admiration is also tough. I have thanked her for being so generous with giving me time with the kids and being so civil.

I think my problem is Love Busters. Especially DJs. Even now, I always have an opinion, but frequently it is presented as a better idea (and frequently it is) But, I know she sees this as controlling and disrespectful of her ability and judgment. And then we have her A, her refusal to go to counseling with me before my A, and her emotional affairs prior to Dday. These all cause me DJs. I will go purchase Love Buster today, because I am at a loss as to how to control DJs when I so thoroughly disagree. I have minor DJs I can remove easily. Do I just steer clear of discussion of her A etc?


Finally, my 9 year old boy wants a football watching party to add excitement to seeing if his beloved Steelers make the playoffs. We have had a few rsvps. I am planning on inviting my BWW, I am not optimistic that she will come, but the invitation means something in itself, right?

Thanks for the space to vent. I have a hundred ideas, and all of them seem wrong. I am kind of looking forward to work starting backup, so I can be distracted. I think that will help with my patience. Clearly that is something I have been lacking.

DT

Oops.. important point..The kids have known. They were among the first to know of my cheating. And they still love me (most of the time, at least )

I don't have advice on how you can meet her ENs while she is not living with you as I am definitely not a vet and have NO experience in that.

As far as what you need for exposure, that is also up to the vets to lend a hand in telling you.

Your opinions and ideas CANNOT always be correct or the better of two options. You definitely have to grasp the MB concepts a lot better if you honestly feel that way. Disrespectful Judgments are just that. They are DISRESPECTFUL. I have had to look deep in to myself and see that I have been guilty of this A LOT. Not just with my WH but with all of the people in my life. I think of myself as an intelligent person who is very aware of others. I tended to argue my point and rarely had changed my opinion. I now see what I was doing and that I don't know A LOT about EVERYTHING. I am a fast and eager learner and I am soaking up all that I can in respect to affairs and how to recover from them. That is why I have suggested that you read and read and read some more. I believe that it is all in these pages. The answers are out there. They may not be the ones we want but they will be the ones we NEED. I have Faith in that.

Just Plan A, no LBs and Expose. That's the only things you should be doing at the moment. Set a timeframe for how long you will continue to do a Plan A. Be the best father and H you can while growing as a person. Nothing you do is guaranteed to get your W back but using the MB concepts is your best chance.

you did not have an a


YES YOU DID! Multiple A's! 15 years of porn addictive A's as well!

Come on DT, you say you didn't fall in love so it's not a real A........ Very, very, foggy thinking here!

Oh and as far as the exposure being against Plan A, it isn't. It is part of the stick of Plan A. She will be mad. This is the point, don't be afraid of making her mad. It is what you do with your actions after that will matter. I believe that you response to exposure should be something like "I will do anything to save our marriage."

Your entitlement and rationalization is showing. "I did not have an A...[I had] a brief affair." Stop it. Own them. This is part of why you are unsafe for your WBW to be around. You refuse to acknowledge your wrongdoing and use the right words to console her.

What are the right words?

"I have a pornography addiction and have had multiple affairs. I am so very, very sorry for my actions. If you can find a way, I could use your help in overcoming my behavior, and am willing to do whatever it takes to show that I can be a great husband and father."

And, sorry to clue-by-four you here, but if you have had multiple affairs, secretive behavior, and ongoing justification/rationalization, you are not a good father right now. Own that, too.


What you should have heard is "Blah Blah Blah. This is Wayward Fog Babble to justify my actions. Blah Blah Blah." Because that is all it is.

She's fog-babbling you... a lot the same way you fog-babbled her. People often wonder why a betrayed spouse shouldn't have a revenge affair... HEY! THIS IS WHY! It really muddies the waters of recovery.


How, exactly, does that differ from the reaction of EVERY wayward to exposure about their affair?

Right. It doesn't. You don't have a chance to recover your marriage while the affair is ongoing. Your marriage might survive her anger. It won't survive a never-ending affair.


That's part of why I love Surviving An Affair. Sure, I think Dr. Harley should have included information about exposure in the book, but he didn't, and the truth is that just following the plan as outlined there does help a lot.

Even if she said the marriage is over, it's not over until the paperwork is signed. If you can possibly swing it, counseling with the Harleys or a MB weekend might help; they spend most of their time convincing the non-cooperative spouse to try reconciliation.


Listen attentively, nod, smile, touch her affectionately, and let her tell you how she feels. Try to re-state how she feels so she knows you understand. Use "I" language to talk about your feelings if you feel a need to persuade her. Basic Marital Communications 101... it doesn't change just because you messed everything up.


Go buy "His Needs, Her Needs", read Chapter 3, and go to it. It talks about "intimate emotional needs". Not all ENs are created equal! The ones in Chapter 3 are the ones most likely to create romantic love.

But from what I read of your writing, your bigger problem is Love-Busting, in particular constant Disrespectful Judgments about your spouse.


And that's why it's a DJ: You act and think that your ideas are better than hers.

Look, certain minimum standards must be present for a marriage to survive, among them fidelity. But beyond that, it's totally up to the two of you to create your marriage the way you want it to be. Go re-read Dr. Harley's Love Busters chapter on Disrespectful Judgments and learn how to turn those into Respectful Persuasion. It's all in how you present your sentiment to her in a way that invites discussion rather than demonstrating your superiority.


Asked and answered. Plan A her until you have to Plan B or Plan D her.


Because you have both been so destructive toward the relationship, focusing on past destruction is not productive. Focus on the present and future, not the past. That is your hope for saving your marriage.


If you reach Recovery, you will have ample opportunity to ask about her multiple affairs. It is going to be much, much harder work than Plan D. For now, ignore that and focus on doing what little you can to end the current affair, meet her emotional needs, and avoid love busters.


Yes. Do not discuss the affair. Just learn to state the truth of how her affair hurts you, your marriage, and your children, then leave it alone thereafter and change the subject to something else.


You're still in Plan A, no? Then be as friendly as possible, extend the opportunity, but be sure to follow through with your plan regardless of her attendance.

Recovery takes time. You're coming up on one month of separation. Dr. Harley regularly admits that most affairs die a natural death, and all the actions of the betrayed spouse to try to end it are for naught. She'll only stop the affair if she wants to, and not before. Your goal is to do what little you can to help her make the decision to end the affair, but more importantly to live the Four Rules for a Successful Marriage with her as much as possible so that you are an attractive option when the affair peters out naturally as it's around 95% likely to do...

TST:

First, do you and SMB have any thoughts on exposing my BWW's A. To me it's so much more complicated because she did tell me it's over before she went there (the romantic one not the EA). To her it's not cheating. To many of her family and friends it won't seem like cheating since she went second and only after telling me she was done. And all I know for sure is hours on the phone, two dates, and canceled plans for a trip to see him in LV. I am so conflicted about exposing.

If I expose. I am thinking that there are at least four sides to be on in "our conflict". Hers, mine, the kids', and the marriage's. And that I need to make it clear that it is not about me or her, but that I am fighting for the marriage and an intact family for the kids. Family and friends will have to choose sides I guess, I need to remind people that they can choose to be on the side of our marriage and an intact family?

I am admitting my foggy thinking about No Love being Ok!!! I totally understand how wrong every rationalization I ever made about cheating was!!!! There is no defense for my cheating. Sure we had marital problems that created an environment where I felt entitled. But that thinking was wrong and destructive and created the mess I am in! I have no fog at all, anymore, thinking what I did was in anyway ok. My only fog now is thinking that anything I do today will make a difference in saving my marriage. Plan A is the only way, and it won't even register on the meter for months.

Sheesh give me some credit

Please re-read my post.. I am owning up! I was making my point that, to my wife, my behavior was exponentially worse than an affair, because she can relate to falling in love but not to what I did.

But I am done focusing on apologizing, crying, and sniveling. She has heard that I am remorseful, she'll believe it when she's ready. I have told her and showed her I have changed, she'll believe it when she continues to see it and is ready to accept it.

Plan A, to me is about me being the most pleasant , considerate, together, organized, loving, fun person I can be. It's for her, it's for the kids, and it's for me. I can not make her stay married, but I can at least be worthy. There is no downside to that? right?

And I will go purchase Love Busters, because I do have an issue with DJs. I get that, but need help on how to avoid them.

DT

Ok, ok! Please re-read what I wrote. I was trying to say that what I did was worse than an A (thus the word disgusting). I was not denying an A, but owning that what I did, is in many ways worse. And certainly in my wife's eyes. Can we just stipulate that my behavior was imcomprehensibly selfish and destructive. That I understand I threw an emotional grenade in to this marriage and family, and that I am trying to piece it back together now?

Can't you hear how my own guilt and "ownership" is making it hard to expose my wife's A. I have done a moderately ok job of being a decent human for 7 weeks, and still believe I have so much more penance to do. The "higher road" seems a disingenuous place for me to be.

I have invited her to my son's football party Saturday.Made it sound fun, and expressed that it would be even more fun if she came.

I filled her on the kids activities (an thus mine). We have a fun day planned. And a productive day getting ready for a party. I hope at some point, how we are living will seem more fulfilling than how she is living. In any case, the kids can't wallow in our self-pity, kids aren't wired that way. So life goes on today. And it will be a good day and a good life, and there is still room in this life for my wife if she chooses it.

Thanks everyone

DT

I must have missed something. When did your WW become supreme? When did her opinion take precedence over civil law and moral philosophy? Were the two of you not married? Did you not take sacred vows? When did your WW's OPINION take precedence over all the above (not to mention your own and that of your IL?).

I'm sorry, but either you or your WW (or both) are spewing bullchit. From where I sit (an anonymous, third party poster), your WW is violating her oath and breaking moral and possibly civic law as well.

The sooner you get this through your head (and you know what? It doesn't matter if people side with her or not -- YOU have to take care of YOU and YOUR MARRIAGE because no one else will!) the sooner you'll be on the road to recovery.

One more thing:

Wife is looking for a rental home. The one she found is about 4 blocks away, a 3 bedroom town house for $1350 (more than the $1200 we had budgeted for) and it doesn't take pets. There is a 3bed 2 bath house about 1 mile away that does take pets for $1250 on craigslist.

Do I just remove myself from any housing decision since all I want is for her to move home? Is letting her know of another option, which may be better for the kids a DJ?

Or do we let mom have her place with no pets and few amenities so the kids just want to come home to the home they know when they are visiting her?

Thanks

DT

Fred:

I tend to agree. Maybe in someway affairs are like homicide, ranging from first degree murder to involuntary manslaughter. And, if you are "keeping score", that matters?

But any affair kills the marriage, even if the justification is, "I already decided the marriage was over".

If not, then the only mistake I made in my cheating was to not go to my wife and say, "this marriage is over" before I became a degenerate? I don't think so.

I want to do everything possible to save this marriage. But in fact, maybe it can't be saved. But I need to be able to look at myself in the mirror and look at my kids and be able to say, "Yes it took me too long to make my marriage and kids a priority, but when I did, I fought as long and hard as I could."

18 years is a long time and a lot of history to throw away. At some point, that may matter to her as well?

DT

DT, I think you may have missed my point. Just because your WW said she was done with the marriage doesn't mean the marriage is over. If that were the case, then the proper thing to do would be to get a lawyer, draw up the papers and have the court declare a final decree of divorce. Then, and only then, could she legally, morally and ethically have taken on another relationship.

My WW said the same thing. And sadly, there are some people who don't care about vows, honesty, "doing the right thing" and those principles that supposedly make us a civilized society. So they tell, WW, "hey, just follow your wishes for happiness" no matter who gets hurt in the process. Right.

My point is, that to you (and to me) and to many others, just saying something doesn't make it so. If that were the case, I could declare myself the Pope. And I'm not even Catholic!

Yes, affairs kill marriages. Some of them need to die. However, some of them don't, and they can be rescued. I don't know the odds, but I'd say they are long. I do know that it takes an incredible amount of effort, time, willingness, patience and thick skin. Those who have done so and post here are a testament to that. My hat is off to them!

Will 18 years matter to her? They will if you help her see that they matter! Right now, WW is in a fog, and nothing -- absolutely nothing -- she thinks or says makes any sense. Remember that. That is the strongest tool you've got going: Your WW makes no sense. As long as she's involved in an A, she won't, either. That's why killing the A as dead as dead can be is so important.

Think of the A as a vicious, coiled cobra, ready to strike. You have to be a mongoose, willing to go head to head with it, and strike it a killing blow when the opportunity presents itself.

Are you ready?