The very best thing tst did in his attempt to reconcile was to focus on the damage he had caused and how to help me heal. He was completely ready to give me a divorce if I was done. He knew that I had every right and every reason to end the marriage.

Back to exposure,

is OM married?

Your quote here:



sounds like you think that if you become the perfect husband, she'll come back. I want to make sure you realize that you may do all the right things, and it still may not happen. Otherwise, your changes will be temporary and if she doesn't return, you will crash and revert back to those old behaviors. It's about your own personal recovery. Your changes cannot be just about winning her back. It's about becoming a better man and a better father.

SMB

You are right, of course. Can any WS every truly grasp the devastation and destruction? Can anyone but a rape victim understand the trauma of rape? I have come so close to losing my daughter many times, I can relate, a little to that level of despair and the feelings of a fundamental lack of "fairness".

But I appreciate that I don't understand the depth of her hurt. How could I? How can I ever, especially if she won't open up and share it with me and let me feel it?

That is why I am here. I have plenty of places I could go and have my pity party supported. But what good would that do? So yes, I am here to take my medicine and keep focused on my wife's pain so that I understand how long of a road I have to travel.

My fog, at this point, is about the time line of all this. Because I know in my heart what I want. Intellectually, I understand, emotionally it's hard to take. But I know I need to manage those emotions productively.

I am determined to work on it. But I have almost no opening offered by her to help her to understand. So tell me again, why should I do all this work?

For me, it's three reasons. I love her. I owe it to her as just compensation, no matter what she decides. And I owe it to my kids even if the chances are slim, the stakes are that high, I have to try.

Do you agree? Should I just sign the divorce papers and get on with it? Am I being selfish by wanting to work toward reconciliation? Should I just tell my kids, "Daddy screwed up too bad, so he an Mommy are giving up?"

I just want to know that I should keep coming back here and try to learn and grow.

DT

You've given her a pass out of the marriage. Dr. Harley wants to save all marriages, but spouses need to evaluate whether they are "saveable".

No spouse can prevent a divorce indefinitely, regardless of the state. So your efforts to save your marriage are not "selfish": they are an effort by both your Giver and your Taker to have a chance to satisfy your desire to please her, and your desire to have your needs met, too.

Article of the day for you: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5035_qa.html

Divorce makes reconciliation harder... but not impossible.

DT,

Any time a man has a long-term addiction to porn it undermines the marriage in a big way and can ultimately lead to an affair or multiple affairs, and this is where you are.

I just want to tell you, that as a wife who was in a marriage where my H had a porn addiction, that it eats at the foundations of the marriage. I cannot tell you how terribly this affected my self-esteem. I could not compete with that, and I felt terribly inadequate, that no matter what I did, I could not please my H, as he was always seeking SF elsewhere. Everytime I found the porn, it would take me 6 months to get over it, and I wasn't the nicest person or best spouse during those times.

I found swingers magazines with circles penciled around women that were in the areas that he was working. There were over $2500 in phone sex bills, and on and on and on.

Then the A.

Do you understand what happened to your wife's self-esteem and self worth during these years that you invested your interests in pornography?

She has probably felt unworthy and unattractive and unloved for a lot of years.

I am not surprised that she has an om. It's probably the first time in years that she felt attractive.

No, I am NOT excusing her actions.

You, my friend, have a long row to hoe to recover your M. And there are no guarantees even then.

I can only say that actions speak louder than words. Don't even think about getting impatient with this process. You have to prove to her that you have changed. Focusing on the kids is a good way to start.

You are getting the best possible advice from smb and tst. You are BLESSED that they are helping you. I have nothing but admiration for them and the awesome job they do here on MB boards.

As for exposure regarding your WW A, I don't know.

I really think counseling with Harley would be the best for you, as your situation is pretty complicated.

Best wishes!

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Please answer this. It is important information.

When I look into tst's eyes, I can see that he does grasp the level of destruction he put upon me. So, yes, I believe a FWS CAN grasp it. I think that when that happens, the FWS carries as much, if not more, pain than the BS because they grasp the destruction and know that THEY CAUSED IT.




tst often tells WS's that they need to focus on UNDERSTANDING instead of BEING UNDERSTOOD.






Those are all very good reasons.

I would add:

Because it's the right thing to do.

and

Because it will make me a better man.






No. But if she moves forward with divorce, it would be wrong for you to delay and be difficult about it. A humble man will recognize that those are consequences of his actions.




No, but you should tell them now that you made a horrible mistake that may cost you and them their most valuable asset anyone can have...family. Own it. Make sure they realize that you started this and what is happening now is a DIRECT result of your affairS and porn use. It will be a very valuable lesson for your children about bad choices and consequences that extend further and further to hurt so many people.

VERY VALUABLE LESSON.





Of course you should. Just don't expect a lot of sugar coating and sweet talk, especially from me.

How old are your children?

Questions answered:

OM is divorced after discovering his WW in bed with another man 9 years ago. Part of their bond.

My kids are 13 and 9. My 13 year old has health and emotional challenges.

The kids know all about my cheating. They get frustrated at Mom for not forgiving me and I try and explain that I did something that Mom just may not be able to forgive and that it's Dad's fault not Mom's. But I can't lie to them about wanting to find a way to help Mom heal and be able to to try and forgive me.

What I need to do as a man, for my own growth, is the same regardless of the outcome. So that will make my persistence be better. As I have said, no downside to growing and becoming the best me.

I get the addiction thing now. You know what's crazy, I did not fully grasp that I had an addiction until d-day. My wife struggled with self -esteem for years, then my As proved her worries correct. Now, like a drunk dad crashing the family car and sending everybody to the hospital with terrible injuries, it has hit me like a ton of bricks. I am back to my 12-step meeting again tonight.

I know what a long road we all have and that there are no guarantees. But the payoff, if we make it, is worth any pain I have to endure. I do realize the pain of reconciliation may be more than she can endure... and yes, that is a logical consequence of my decisions and choices.

I hold on to hope though. I need to. She has left me in charge of the kids. She is a great mom, just a grieving mom. But I think /hope that demonstrates some level of faith by her that there is some goodness in me, or she wouldn't be comfortable leaving the kids with me. And I have to take that as her way of telling me what I can do at this point to help.

Thanks for the input..still willing to stand in here, take my lumps, and try to learn.

DT

DT:

You posted this:
Yes, the Harleys would counsel you to help you restore your marriage, until you no longer wanted to pay the fee, or do the work.

Same here. You keep doing the work, and you will get more hope.

Understand, that the chances of you recovering your marriage are low. There are alot of problems, but it is possible.

It is easier to quit.

So, keep fighting. That is where your hope is, in fighting the good fight.

LG

Golfer:

But the potential payoff is so high..I have to keep trying.

At worse, I am a better man, and I can set an example for my children 1: The need to make good choices and own them and 2: You don't have to be defined by your mistakes forever and all you can control are your next set of decisions and actions.

I owe everyone to not continue to wallow in self-centeredness. It's time to make my loved ones a priority once again.


Today has been a good start. Tomorrow, I'll try to make even better.

Thanks
DT

By the way.

My BS has been incredibly generous the last two weeks, changing plans to stay with the kids so that I can attend my 12 step meetings. While she says she thinks my self-improvement efforts are for show, her actions suggest that she is feeling that getting my porn addiction under control is important. Given everything, I think that is quite compassionate of her.

DT

You are the father of her children. OF COURSE she wants you to get your porn habit under control. You will be influential in her children's lives.

Do you have the opportunity to interact with her during those times when she cares for the children (when she first gets there or before she leaves)? If so, that gives you opportunity to meet an EN here and there...

affection--complimenting her or giving a tender touch
conversation--ask about her day and let her share if she's willing

Those are two intimate ENs that you might be able to make a small deposit on a little at a time.

SMB:

We do have a few moments during kid exchange to talk. I definitely look for opportunities to ask how is it going? I compliment her (she is quite beautiful and stylish, so it's easy), inquire as to her mom's health. I make lame attempts at humor (she used to like my humor. Share fun anecdotes about the kids or pets. I ask her opinion (remember I am a know it all so that's a bit new).

This all goes better when I remove the sniveling apologizing and desperation from my approach.

I am not allowed to touch her..although last Sunday, when she decided she was moving out, and was in anguish at the thought of leaving our beautiful home and her pets, she did let me hold her and comfort her. She didn't hug me back , but she did let me hold her. That's the last time we touched.

Off to 12 step tonight. Continuing to work my step 3 and getting ready for my step 4. I need a sponsor, but haven't made that connection yet.

Will I ever learn? How stupid do I have to be?

Ok.. so I have a nice day yesterday focused on friends and family. My son wanted people over to watch football, so we had a small party yesterday. First time I have ever hosted a party (or cleaned the entire house myself) in the 20+ years my wife and I were together.

I invited my wife, she declined of course, but did say "Sounds fun, you are a great Dad."

Late Saturday early Sunday I got the "joy" of taking care of my very sick 9 year old son alone too. It was probably food poisoning, so we still had the party.

Went to my 12 step meeting last night(I am in 12 steps to deal with my porn addiction). My wife has been really generous about changing her plans the past two weeks to watch the kids so that I can go to my meetings, even though, outwardly she thinks my whole attending 12 steps is for show and a crock. The 12 step meeting was rough but good. But it was hard to face that I have been undermining my marriage long before I made the choice to chear.

But overall it was a good, healthy day.

But then, I had trouble going to sleep last night and was doing some work on the computer. I came across an e-mail account my wife had closed. I don't know why I was compelled, but I re-activated it. I guess I was looking for some sign or hope that my wife deciding not to go see her new boyfreind in Las Vegas for New Year's actually meant something. Well, it texted my wife's phone that I had re-opened the account. I had to go in to her work e-mail to reset the password to the closed account. So needless to say she was pissed! I had violated her privacy again.

It is so hard to accept your spouse's privacy when you still feel married, privacy is not a marital right and is usually more dangerous than beneficial. My privacy and secrecy helped me rationalize my cheating. My wife has moved on in her head at least, so she expects a right to privacy, and she probably does have a right. But that doesn't change the fact that I desparately want to know what is going on with her, and she will share so little with me.

So, in texting back and forth I learned from her. 1. I am "creepy" and a "stalker"..crap! 2. Her rebound affair did crash and burn because "she's too much of a mess" and "he didn't want me either" 3. And she'd rather die alone than be with me.

Nice job of ****edit**** every thing up once again, huh?

All I could do was apologize. Remind her that she is in no way to blame for the disintegration of our marriage. Promise to respect her privacy in the future. And remind her that I am trying to improve myself, and realize I have so long to go still. And let her know that I have always loved her and still do, even if I don't know how to show that love in unselfish ways yet.

Back to work on me today.

Any other thoughts on ways to repair the additional damage and pain I caused her last night?

DT

Time.

I think you really need to work on yourself guy and take care of your kids. You sound pretty messed up...DUDE

Meet her ENs as much as she allows and avoid Love Busters.

And give it TIME...

Bigger hammer only makes bigger splinters.

Here's what you keep missing in all of this stuff DT. Your wife is not in love with you.

She once was in love with you.

But before that she wasn't in love with you.

It was what you did that made her fall in love with you and what you can do again that will cause her to be in love with you again. Do those things that caused her to fall in love again and she will fall in love again.

Develop a PLAN of attack, a way to meet her ENs (You have to identify them correctly first) and figure out what Love Busters you keep repeating over and over and get rid of them from you life.

Think about when you first met. Who were you back then? Be that guy now.

No magic.

No special thing you can do to undo all the crap you did that was counter to her being in love with you for so many years.

Just do the things that made her fall in love with you before.

Once you have a PLAN, then execute the PLAN. You do each part of your plan in order and keep doing it until you can no longer continue.

And here's the bit that you keep failing to grasp...

You execute your PLAN no matter what she tells you about it being too late, or how she doesn't want to stay married or how your changes are too little too late. (BTW, if she notices the changes, it means you are on the right track any way...)

Quit trying to convince her you are a new man and SHOW her you are a new man.

Stop trying to coerce her into staying with you and give her a reason to return to you.

Be the man she wants.
Be the man she needs.
Be the man she doesn't want to be without.

If you become those things, she will want to return.

Stop analyzing all of this stuff she tells you and just BE the husband of her dreams.

You still might lose her, but the longer you put off grasping this idea and keep trying to change HER instead of YOU the less chance you have of winning the war.

Meet her Emotional Needs.
Avoid Love Busters.

Take a little time to read a few threads of betrayed husbands around here. You'll see that any time a wife is having an affair she says all of that same stuff. The "reasons" she gives you are the same as any BH heard. If her affair did actually implode, then this is an opportunity for you to make things happen before she finds another OM.

BE the man she wants, DT.

Dude...maybe.

Three months ago I would have described myself as pretty together, and most people would have echoed that sentiment. Clearly I wasn't based on my ridiculous acting out, but in the insanity of cheating, that was a different person and a different world.

Dday was like being brought to reality after being locked in some kind of computer fantasy world to find that while I was playing fanatsy games, I was losing my family from neglect and outright cruelty. I know what I have to do, but it is hard to let go for fear I will never get it back.

I have counseling today, so I hope that helps, and I am scheduling a session with coaching center.

It has been scary to see how yanking on this one thread has got me totally unraveling. But I guess fidelity to one's marriage is a pretty important thread. I just hate that I am having so much trouble sticking to what I know is right.

DT