L4:

I wanted to ask more about the thongs, then you went and got all serious on me....



There is no difference if your not going to enforce any of them.

So, to paraphase, "You do THIS, and I will do THAT" If they continue to do THIS, and you never do THAT, then the rest doesn't matter.

If you only enforce partially, then that doesn't count either.

When someone is overriding your boundaries, (nee: ultimatum, condition, standard, etc.) and you attempt to enforce your boundaries, then thier natural reaction is defensive....So, they start calling it what they want to call it. Or engaging you in 'riddle' games.

Don't play. State your boundary and enforce that boundary, every time. Hanging up the phone when they are abusive: equals boundary enforcement. Exiting the room when they are abusive: equals boundary enforcement.

And this part is on you. You have to defend your boundaries. If your unwilling to do so, then the other person will continue to override them.

L4 cheated. That does not give the betrayed spouse cart-blanche to abuse. Be angry? Be upset? Want to divorce? Sure. But not to abuse. So defend your boundaries.

LG

I think the differences and similarities are quite hazy and I think they have to be individually used in each situation and I do not think that they can be used without employing some sort of judgement.

When discussing things with J and they get heated I enforce my boundaries. I make sure that I don't DJ and avoid AO. If he comes at me with DJs and AOs which are causing a negative emotional response in me I let him know that I am removing myself and why. Now then I could turn this into an ultimatum by telling him that I refuse to talk tohim unless he changes the way in whiich he talks to me. It seems an ultimatum is really just a DJ/SD - I'm telling him he needs to change in explicit terms. I guess the ultimatum is inferred by my behaviour though (removing myself), although I remove myself and do not ask him to leave.

J moved out because of his AOs and the conditions of his return were that he worked on his angerman. and followed programs to help and look at a MB course. I guess again -he was given an ultimatum - he knew that I wasn't going to live with him unless he moved out to work on his problem.

I'm guessing what you're getting at is when is giving a condition or ultimatum accpetable?

I can't igure it out but it seems that inferred ultimatums which in the end seem sort of passive aggressive are ok if you are enorcing your own boundaries. And to me Cloud and Townsend don't make it much clearer.

Are boundaries inferred or indirect ultiamtums? Maybe the Elglish language is just far too complicated.

Is my boundary enforcement frustrating J because he can't get out what he wants?

MBers doesn't work in an abusive relationship. Right?

OK. I'll stop. I'm thinking in circles


Please can someone else answer L4s question?

Ultimatum = Selfish Demand "I want you to change your actions/reactions/way you do things." AKA: "My way or the highway!" Seldom gets us what we want.

Condition = A requirement; something I require in order to do something or not do something. eg: The affair must end in order to begin recovery. (A LOT of things can fall into this category not related to infidelity)

Boundary = Defines ME and not YOU. Says what I will do and will not do/tolerate and not tolerate/allow to happen to me or not allow to happen to me.

Boundaries are always about US and our own actions. They protect US from what others do rather than insisting that THEY change what they are doing. "If you scream at me, I will walk away. If you follow me to keep screaming at me I will leave the house. If you keep screaming at me all the time I will file for separation."

Ultimatums always require others to change what they are doing. They are nothing but demands though are often called boundaries by those stating them. "Either shape up or ship out." "Stop yelling at me or else!" They invoke a threat.

Conditions are a tool for negotiating the outcome we seek. They allow us to attempt to get in exchange for what we are willing to give. A condition of feeling in love with someone is that he/she meets your most intimate Emotional Needs.

When J moved out a CONDITION of his return was following certain guidelines to assure that he was working on changing his behavior patterns.

He moved out because it was the next logical step in the enforcement of a boundary that defined a lack of further tolerance for abusive behavior. Your boundary, ST and your enforcement.

In negotiations there are right and wrong places for all three, IMO. Ultimatums seldom accomplish the desired goal of changing another person's actions. Therefore, ultimatums should be the last ditch effort to get what you need.

Boundaries are NOT PA ultimatums. Boundaries always define myself. The CONSEQUENCES of what I do to enforce my boundaries may effect others but the purpose of my enforcement of a boundary is to define what I will or will not do/allow or not allow/protect me for the actions of others and others from my own actions.

The ultimate ultimatum is a threat of "Change or die."
The ultimate passive aggressive act is suicide.
The ultimate boundary enforcement in marriage is divorce.

Mark

We're anonymous friends here. Ask away. My PSA was for ladies only, but I've received more comments from men then from women. Hmmmm... Does that mean that men can't/won't follow directions? Or are we all drawn to peak behind those "Show Me" boxes, regardless? (I guess men really do prefer them to the other under options.)

I was trying not to be offensive while hopefully helping the ladies. Thongs are like waxing, plucking, high heels, Spanx, and push up bras... Women wear them for looks, not for comfort. So if I learn of something that can make doing these look-prettier-things any easier and meeting one's EN for PA, I feel an obligation to share that info. And I hope you ladies will return the favor should you find something that works.

Thank you LG. I think I get this part and I'm getting better at stating and enforcing my boundaries. I think because my getting better at boundary enforcement is being met with resistance, I'm not yet great at it. Working on it though.

This is what I was getting at. But I didn�t want to lead the answer. LG�s info was helpful too, and I wouldn�t have received that if I hadn�t made it open-ended.

A question I ask too, ST. Enough so that I haven�t placed any conditions on our possible recovery. My self-talk asks, �Who am I � the adulterer � to place any conditions on our M?�

I also haven�t applied any conditions to our possible recovery because, from what I sense, H hears them as ultimatums. I don�t know the difference and how to apply one so it doesn't sound like the other. And I don�t think H knows the difference either. The last time I placed what was pretty much an ultimatum was when I said we had to do MC if I was to stay with H. After we were in MC, I revealed my infidelity. So from what I�ve gathered from H, condition = ultimatum = me trying to get away with something and/or prove H wrong and/or place blame on H.

Thank you, Mark. My problem is I don�t know how make a condition not look like an SD or an ultimatum so I've asked for nothing in terms of our recovery and I've asked for little elsewhere, like around the house. Doing the dishes is about as strong as I�ve pushed and even that hasn�t been successful. And dishes aren't worth keeping my knickers in a knot about so I let it go.

I�ve learned that until one sees their actions as hurtful or harmful, it�s hard to get him/her to see any need for change. Therefore the request or condition is an SD to the recipient no matter how it's delivered. And as we all know, SDs are LBs so that condition might hurt the relationship, not help it.

But, onward�

I�m going to have lunch with some fantastic ladies today (can�t wait!), then H, DS8, DD6, and I are going bowling. (I finally get to put that bowling ball that I got as a gift to use!) Tomorrow, we�re going skiing if the weather permits so I better get on that treadmill so I can make it down the runs for at least half the day.

Thank you LG, ST, and Mark. Take care.

Just popping by to say hello, and happy holidays.

You're getting great advice as per usual.

Hey Looking,

How was bowling. It was so awesome to have seen you and JT again. Maybe next time we can meet earlier and have more time.

I'm disappointed that Believer wasn't able to join us. We missed you Believer.

I think that is just super that you gals can get together, it can be difficult to find the time can't it, but it's so important to make time for good friends.
As is UA time in M .... so as to stay within the MB theme!

Always thinkin' of you L4 so here's another

We were too late to go bowling, Queenie. Went with friends on New Year's Eve and had fun. I agree it was great to be with you ladies. Your company and friendship mean a lot to me. I would have loved to have had more time. I am also disappointed that Believer wasn't able to make it.

Now, I need your help, people. Please.

Holidays were okay. Most days were good with H and we enjoyed Christmas Eve and Christmas.

However, there were too many DJs over a couple of days and we we had two very hurtful and painful fights between Christmas and New Years. I'm still shaking my head about how bad they were. The second was so bad, H ended up sleeping in the guestroom.

The next day on New Year's Eve morning, he said that he wanted to apologize for the previous evening, but he couldn't think of anything he did wrong. It was interesting because I was thinking something similar.

He said he thinks we don't belong together and our time together is over. He said we had a good run but it's time to call it quits.

I asked if we could please go to MC, help of any kind as I'm not ready to give up. He said that he thinks I should get IC (I don't disagree and have had therapy in the past and have wanted to return to it for several months now) but he doesn't think he needs IC and that MC is a waste. He said we already did MC and we're already back to some of our old behaviors so it doesn't work. (Six sessions over a year ago???)

He told me he doesn't trust me nor does he respect me. It was a rather calm discussion for about 10 minutes and as it ended, I asked him for a hug. We held each other and I told him that I am so sorry for not being the wife he needs me to be. I told him I thought he thought I had changed. He said he sees that, but he doesn't think it's enough. I apologized for failing him and our family.

I was very sad, but after the last two fights where we achieved nothing but complete drainage of our L$s, I figured it was probably best as it appears we can't have a healthy, let alone happy, M. We agreed we'd get through the day and talk about things the next day, Friday.

He wanted to cancel that evening's plans to ensure we wouldn't bicker among friends but we went out with them and we had a fun night. (I paid him much attention -- joking, touching, sitting near him when I could.) At 3am, he grabbed me and wanted SF. I complied, as much out of desperation to connect with him as anything.

Friday the air was tense so I asked H if he wanted to talk or if we could just let the day be. He opted for the latter.

We haven't had the conversation about what we are going to do. I understand the thought that we should just let things be and not address "us". But I can't do that. I cannot have another confrontation like I had in the restaurant and car on the 26th or in our TV room on the 30th.

Here's the thing...

Just now, H forwarded to me an email correspondence he has been having with our old realtor about a property we looked at before he brought up wanting to D. It's a great house, one we came close to buying three years ago that's back on the market in better condition and for a lower price. He wants to talk about it tonight.

How can he even entertain buying a house with me when 5 days ago he was talking divorce?

I have been preparing to present a condition to H, one that asks him to do the MB weekend or at least MC otherwise... Well, that's where I get stuck. I don't know what the "otherwise" part is. We have to do something because I cannot live like this. It's not good for H, for me, or our children.

It's been rough and a very dear MB friend has been helping me see things more clearly including my own LBs. And words from my lunch dates also have given me much needed strength.

Here is what I am considering sending or saying to H:

"I don't think that we have had a good run at this. We have not done everything possible to try to rebuild this M. We haven't taken advantage of all the things that are available to us.

I agree that divorce is the best option if we are to continue these abusive ways of acting toward each other.

There is an option, however, that I feel may make a difference if we truly want to keep our family together. I would like to attend the Marriage Builders weekend. Unless we do that, I won't feel like we tried every effort to save our marriage for our children. We should be able to tell our kids that we did everything humanly possible to keep their family intact and protect them from divorce.

What do think about having a timeline before we make such a final decision? What do you think about us doing the Marriage Builders seminar and utilizing the Marriage Builders coaches over the next year. In a year's time, we see where we are. If you feel that we have made no progress, I won't fight you on divorce. Right now I don't want a divorce. I still believe there is much to save but I don't believe we can do it on our own. I feel very strongly that we need third-party help.

I've looked into the costs. It'll cost us $3,000 to $3,500 to go. MC once every two weeks with Dr. R would cost nearly $3,700 over a year's time.

I love you and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to repair the damage in our marriage."

Now with this movement to consider buying a new house (in a town 35 minutes north of here in a new school district), I'm confused. I'm trying to go with the flow and support him, but I can't afford to look at things through rose-colored glasses in hopes we're good. I'm thinking I need to present this letter when he wants to talk about things, which could be as early as this evening.

Should I present this to him at all?

Should I let things go and pray that we don't ever disagree again?

Should I only say something if he pursues the house purchase?

What if he says no to the MB weekend or again to MC?

What if he once again refuses to get any help for him or us?

What is the other half of my condition?

Or maybe it's not a condition? Maybe it's just a respectful request?

Sorry I can't be more detailed on what exactly happened. Please just trust me that I can't do that again with anyone, let alone with the man I'm married to. I believe he feels the same.

Any advice is appreciated.

Hi L4-

I'd love to have you as a closer neighbor!

Your post have given me some things to mull over and pray about. I promise to get back to you soon.

I do think there are some positives in what your WH has proposed, in spite of the LB's.

Hang in there my friend.

JT

L4

I'm really sad to read your latest report. Of all the marriages on MB I want to see saved, yours is near the top for me. I and many others are emotionally invested in your story. We know you from your epic and compelling thread. I wish I could meet your husband, talk to him, pray with him, or at least that he would post here. I know he is a wounded and hurting man.

I don't feel I have much advice to give since my marriage isn't recovered yet, and yours has suffered a more grievous wound than ours.

I don't know if your marriage will make it and I'm not trying to give false hope. I'll just mention one thing that might help. MrsO and I have had some arguments/fights that I thought were the absolute end of our marriage. I have thought many times, "We aren't going to make it. We've hurt each other too much to recover."

MrsO has physically assaulted me, beating me over the head with her fists (she had a fit because I dared asked about something on her browser history); we have both called the police to our house; she has screamed that she hates me more times than I can count; she has beat her fists on the dash of our car and threatened to jump out while the car was moving; she has gotten out of the car and walked blocks to our home or called her mother for a ride; I left and lived elsewhere for two weeks and she did the same a year later; she has told me that I have been a terrible husband and that she can't think of anything she admires about me; she has threatened to take our kids away and said "you won't see them or me for a long time!"; MrsO moved out and lived at her parents right up to the morning we left for the MB weekend. She wouldn't even ride with me to the airport to fly to our marriage-saving seminar!

And finally, we have both talked to lawyers and threatened divorce or separation. At least in my case, I was very serious and came close to pulling the trigger.

I have thought many times that our marriage could not survive the pain, animosity and anger. MrsO has said things to me that have cut me to the bone, and I'm sure she'd say the same about me. This went on for 18 months and I didn't see any hope. But here we are, still together. We went to the MB weekend, something I thought MrsO would never do. Some days we are hanging by a thread, others we do pretty well.

I know you feel you have fought for this marriage almost on your own. Yes, you are the one who put the torpedo below the water line with your affair and you have the greater burden, IMO, of undoing the damage. But we have all witnessed (at least from your perspective) your valiant efforts to make amends and atone for your transgressions.

I have the advantage of a spouse who at least says she wants to recover and who is trying to work the MB program with me. You don't. As I said, I'm not in a position to give much advice. But maybe the story of us making it through some hellacious, heart-breaking, hope-crushing fights will give you hope to hang on a little longer.

It's a cliche, but it's true: It ain't over 'til it's over.

I think they best advice you got it to slow down. Breathe and let JT think and pray on it. She is full of common sense, has a new marriage that we both want and is willing to share her spirit to G-d.

Nothing has to be decided right this minute. Seek G-d and ask him for answers and help to walk through this.

Oh Looking, I'm so very sorry you are hurting. I saw that pain and felt it when I saw you. I'm sure I have shared this with you but in case not, here goes.

In Judaism when we wrong another human being, we are to apologize to them no more than three times and change our ways. If after the third time they still don't forgive us, that's on THEM.. Not you.

You do NOT need to continually place yourself in that role. You have apologize I would say at LEAST three times. It's over. It's up to him now.

As for your M, just a little more time. Stop trying to fix it today and seek G-d. Don't let him goad you into any altercations. Turn him over to G-d.

I know you can do this. Just pray when you want to talk. Talk to G-d. He knows the way to your happiness and life.

L4

Many many many hugs. I'll be back later. Will pray in the mean time.

Just on the house thing though: J would do that and he has said that I would do it too on occasion - when things seemed totally rock bottom - one of us would suddenly start making a plan for all of us. I don't know what it means.

Maybe it's a sort of looking for a fresh start. I am pleased that we didn't move or make that fresh start - becasue that fresh start needed to come from within us - the new house for us would not have been that fresh start - just contributed to our woes.

The separation was the beginning of our fresh start(not very MB I know, but then MB doesn't work in an abusive relationship - and both of us were abusive).

Many, many hugs from me too L4.

The house buying thing resonates with me L4.

After I'd had to have a much wanted pregnancy terminated, I sank into a really deep depression that I couldn't seem to get out of. BB was unwilling to talk about the termination AT ALL and pretended it hadn't happened.

Friends and family couldn't talk to me because it was just too painful a subject for anyone to broach with me.

BB and I were suffering terribly, each lost in our own pain and unable to reach out to each other.

In the midst of all this, BB decided we should move house. I was apathetic. I didn't care where we lived because I'd rather have been dead anyway.

I went along with his plan and we moved, but I didn't like the layout of the house, so BB said we would change it. So we extended and altered and worked our butts off for a year doing things to the house.

In hindsight, we did all these things to avoid THE BIG ISSUE. BB tried so hard to make me happy in every materialistic way he could, but I only ever wanted him to talk to me about our loss.

He was unable or unwilling to do that. His A started weeks after we finished remodelling the house at a time when he thought nothing he was doing or could do was making me any happier.

Oh what I would give now to have that time back so I could do things differently.

I think it's possible that your H is looking into the house purchase because he wants to stay with you and rebuild but cant face the REAL talk that will lead to healing and true marriage building.

It's just too painful for him, in the same way it was too painful for BB and I to talk about the termination.

D-Day for us was 2 years after the termination and the day after D-Day was the very first conversation we had about it since the day it happened. Two years of the worst pain and neither of us able to talk about it. How sad.

I get the impression your H is in a similar situation to the one BB and I found ourselves in. It's just too damn painful and he can't face really feeling that pain, so he'll avoid it in any way he can.

Things will get so bad, he will mention divorce but he doesn't really want that so will keep you in the M by moving home. It just makes me so sad to think of someone else in as much pain as BB and I were in and just as stuck in the pain as BB and I were.

The question is what will it take to get Mr L4 to confront this issue head on?

Hugs L4.

I'm thinking.

Well, L4...

Ottert has given you a bit of reason to hold out hope, I think. Sere has pretty much nailed the pain thing as being what is preventing him from responding. Queenie has pointed out how important it is to let God work His miracles as long as we have done the right thing up front. JT and ST are going to pray about your situation and really, that might be the best course of action at this point.

He's stuck. All he needs is to take one little step toward reconciliation but that one step is so painful that he just doesn't seem to be able to manage it. At this point I am beginning to think that maybe you will not be the one to break through to him. When you try to encourage him to take that step the pain sends him reeling and he associates the pain with your encouragement.

Yet I can't help wondering if when he actually expresses his hurt if it isn't exactly what he needs to do to get past this and when he does then YOU experience the pain rather than him. He might even be holding back because he sees that it hurts you when he vents and lets out what he is keeping bottled up inside and so he resolves to do just that, keep it inside himself. It would all be so easy and simple and nice and tidy if he would just find an outlet for what he feels...

Perhaps that is what he has done afterall. He has chosen you as his only support group and when he begins to try to push past that hurt, he sees how it hurts you and so he becomes even more frustrated...

Just trying to make sense out of it here. Might be way off base...

I sometimes wonder what Mr L4's report of one of these meltdowns would look like. What would he say about the knock-down fight? What would he say is the sticking point? Some never are able to get past the pain, is he one of those? Why can't he get beyond the anger phase of grieving and push toward acceptance? Accepting what happens does not equal endorsement of it...

All of this marriage stuff would be such a piece of cake if we didn't have to deal with our own emotions while doing it. We have a perfectly good plan, a clear choice of direction to make and then our emotions get involved and it gets so muddied up that we can't even begin to find our way from the mire and mess we find ourselves in...

I'm reminded of how I tried to heal myself of the infection that attacked my flesh. I used alcohol, peroxide, iodine solution, anti-bacterial cremes and ointments...Finally I realized that I wasn't going to be able to stop it on my own and went to the doctor who said I needed to have it cut out in order to prevent it from killing me...



Since it seems I have no advice for you this morning, about all I can do is to join the others in praying about this whole mess...

Me too, L4.

, L4.

I've still been reading along. And I'm sorry to hear about Mr. L4's request/latest developments.

I read over your potential letter to Mr. L4, and while I'll have to mull on the actual wording of what you want to say... I really think some sort of decision needs to be reached on this at this point. Pee or get off the pot, so they say. He needs to at least DECIDE if he wants to even attempt peeing! This is too much stress for you, him, and your kids this way.

You are correct that as a COUPLE you haven't tried everything to save your M. There are very blatant options that your H refuses to consider. And you can't "make" him. But you can say to him "I won't continue this M in this state, so either we get third party help, or its time for a separation" (that "modified plan B" that I've mentioned to you that Jennifer suggested to me. I thankfully never needed it, although was VERY close several times).

I'd be careful with the house and stuff like that also. Him asking about buying the house says to me that asking for a D was probably an emotional reaction on his part during your argument and not something that was well thought out. HOWEVER, he can't throw a D in your face and then ask you to buy a house days later, for pete's sake! I would think VERY carefully about buying a new house in the condition things are in right now- I really can't speak to that entirely because there's a lot that goes into buying a new house (financially, commutes, school districts, etc). And I don't know that I'd be so afraid to just outright TELL H that- that you're not comfortable buying a new house, etc, until your M is on more stable ground. That may be enough of a "message" to him right there.

I think at this point he's gonna stay in a state of limbo as long as he can, because moving either way for him is too painful. And while staying in the middle is painful too... the potential pain of the "unknown" is keeping him stuck. He needs a nudge to make a decision. Either way. This is slow torture.

I guess my point is I don't disagree with presenting some sort of option to him like you've suggested. In fact, I think it might be GOOD. And entering some sort of "modified plan B" if he won't agree to get third party help and exercise all of your options to fix your M. Not a D, just that you need to protect yourself from the hurt and pain of the limbo the M is in until he makes a decision. And he may decide not to recover... but at least then you can begin to heal... alone. Because I think its hard for you to even get PERSONAL recovery REALLY underway in this condition either.

My 2 cents.
E.

Nothing to add but sending more prayers to you and H.

Just thinking of the house move made me remember the lyrics to one of my fave Luther Vandross songs - a house is not a home...

A chair is still a chair, even when there's no one sittin' there
But a chair is not a house and a house is not a home
When there's no one there to hold you tight
And no one there you can kiss goodnight

A room is a still a room, even when there's nothin' there but gloom
But a room is not a house and a house is not a home
When the two of us are far apart
And one of us has a broken heart

Now and then I call your name
And suddenly your face appears
But it's just a crazy game
When it ends, it ends in tears

Pretty little darling, have a heart, don't let one mistake keep us apart
I'm not meant to live alone, turn this house into a home
When I climb the stairs and turn the key
Oh, please be there, sayin' that you're still in love with me, yeah...

I'm not meant to live alone, turn this house into a home
When I climb the stairs and turn the key
Oh, please be there, still in love
I said still in love
Still in love with you...yeah...

Are you gonna be in love with me
I want you and need to be, yeah
Still in love with me
Say you're gonna be in love with me
It's drivin' me crazy to think that my baby
Couldn't be still in love with me

Because you can be more lonely living in a house with someone you love but are disconnected from than you can by actually being alone.

Can you tell your H that there is nothing you would like more than to live in a loving home with him as your loving H, but that you simply cannot envisage changing your four walls and continuing to live in a disconnected marriage.

Keeping you in my thoughts L4.

Morning Lookin, I love you