To start, my husband and I both grew up in the same religion, meaning we both share (or should theoretically share) the same values, specifically pertaining to sex, abstinence, pornography, etc. These values are that, prior to marriage, a couple should not participate in any form of sexual activity, and that never should any individual dabble in pornography and/or masturbation (not before, and not after marriage). My husband became addicted to self-pleasure and pornography around 11 and has always struggled with it. I could say that I was addicted to self-pleasure from about 8 to 21, and I experimented a little with pornography (viewing maybe a total of 5-10 times in those 13 years). I met my husband in a summer college course a few years ago, and although I had no interest in him at first (mainly because I felt like he was too good for me and probably didn't even notice me), he eventually asked me out enough times that I began to realize he liked me. After the usual dating drama, we became exclusive, and not long after that, we were engaged. Our engagement lasted 7 months, which for people in our religious culture and who share our values, is way too long. Being quite attracted to each other, we did things that we shouldn't have done (sexually); this never bothered my husband much, but it tore-up my soul and conscience so much that, at one point, I almost called off our wedding. (Even today, he still refers to those "naughty" engagement-time activities as "the good old times".) Although I'm grateful for his honesty, this is when my husband told me that he had slept with another woman right about the time we very first started dating. This hit me hard, but I figured I could get past it. Unfortunately, it's still something that I think about today. During the last half of our engagement, we were doing great with the whole abstinence issue and we both felt that we were on the right track to being worthy to get married in our church's sacred temple. However, the night before our wedding day, we slipped-up again, and somehow (probably more so because I didn't want to shame my family, relatives and friends who had traveled to be a part of the wedding) my husband convinced me that we should go ahead and get married in the temple (even though deep down inside I felt, and still to this day feel, that we should have called-off the temple wedding, been married civilly, pulled our act together during the following year, and been married in the temple.) Either way, we did what we did, and it has bothered me ever since (yet my husband hasn't thought twice about it). Our honeymoon was great besides the fact that we didn't have sex. Physically, my husband was way to big and I was way to small (I was still a virgin). At this point I still hadn't been turned-off to sex. When we got back from our honeymoon, we went to the doctor and with about 1 and 1/2 months worth of "physical therapy," so to speak, we had sex for the first time. It felt great for him, and was kind of fun for me, but only because it was a completely new thing that had always been forbidden growing up. At the same time, however, it was a little emotionally stressful for me because I continued to dwell on the fact that my husband had had sex with another woman (I felt that he was always secretly comparing, judging, etc). Although sex never felt good for me, we were intimate fairly often (at least several times per week), and I didn't mind too much because it was still new. During that first month after we were finally able to have sex, we got pregnant. I felt pretty miserable most of the time and didn't want sex as much, but obviously my husband did. I'll never forget this particular night: we got in bed and I fell asleep only to be woken-up a few hours later by a very horny and pestering husband that really wanted to have sex. I really didn't want to have sex because I didn't feel the best and had no drive. He pestered me so much that I finally, exhausted and frustrated, threw in my towel, and simply laid there while he basically [censored] me (I'm sorry for the language, but it portrays best how I feel about what happened). I hated him so much. Although I never forgot this, we eventually returned to good spirits with each other, but during the entire pregnancy, my husband would always have to beg and pester me to do anything sexual with him. I gave-in here and there, but he often resorted to masturbation and pornography, which in turn, made me feel even less inclined to be in any way intimate with him, and which made me always feel depressed, worthless, empty, full of rage, hateful, etc. Our baby boy inevitably created more stress and tension, but after the 6-week healing period, we tried to have sex again. (I'll admit that my husband was very patient during those six weeks, although he constantly pestered me and begged me to be sexual with him in other ways that I still didn't care for.) The first two or three tries, we didn't get very far because it hurt way too much for me, so we went back to the doctor. When our son was about 4-5 months, we finally got a handle on the painful sex issue, but I still had zero sex drive and sex still did not feel good for me. Obviously, it made sense that I didn't want to have sex, which my husband took as me not wanting to have sex with him, not loving him, etc. Every time I refused sex for more than 1-2 weeks, he would become very depressed and upset, and even throw little temper tantrums. Since he wouldn't be able to sleep at night, he would leave for a few hours to either take a drive or walk. This only made me wonder more and trust less. Then come to find out, he began masturbating again and more often, and even started looking at pornography again. This broke my heart. I began to hate the thought of sex. Any time my husband had to go without sex, he would pout, leave the apartment at night, masturbate and look at pornography. Finally, just recently, I broke completely. Because I'm so tired of this loosing battle, and I'm so tired of feeling worthless, I decided to just give in. I pretend to be happy even though he now wakes me up every night to have sex with him at least once and, at this point, I just let him. I dread going to bed every night and while we're having sex I try to think about something else while hoping it will be over quickly. My husband is very happy...I have so much rage inside of me and I'm just tired of this constant battle. I don't know what else to do. I feel completely trapped. Please help me.

Wow! I grew up in UT and know the religion all too well! This sounds similar to us, except I was raised to stop when a woman says no, but can empathize with your H on the frustration pouting. It wasn't uncommon for us to go 6-9 weeks without sex which tore me apart and made me depressed. She caught me 2x with porn, but when it got so bad and pent up I really didn't care what she thought, what was she going to do? Deny me sex? She already was.

Many men resort to porn and mb to release the frustration. Is he really addicted or do you think he would stop if you two had more sex? In my case I really don't care for porn, it was just a release.

The vets will chime in at some point. I can tell you my wife probably felt the same way, the more I nagged the more she resisted and she has gone so far as to say it repulsed her. 15 years into marriage and she is just now realizing how important sex is to our M. Is it too little too late? I don't know, but it's good you are searching to find out.

You might want to click on Marriage Mission, scroll down to Sex Issues and see the headings like: Why Men Need Sex etc. It has many reasons why men get weird when they don't have sex. Is it a need? Can you live without sex? No, yes, but you can also live through divorce, and live through a miserable marriage too.

I was not raised in a religion where self pleasure and porn are forbidden, so I can't relate totally to your situation. But, I want to chime in because at one time I was using porn as visual stimulus to help with self pleasure, and though I don't really see anything wrong self pleasure and with having a little 'help', I can see where some people might get carried away.

I have a much stronger need/desire for SF than my wife, and since we started having issues in our relationship, naturally SF with her just about stopped. There was no way I wanted to go outside for SF, so what's a guy to do? I was very much like your husband - if I was rejected (and I was a lot) I'd find a way to masturbate to release the tension. I never felt it was wrong, and I still don't. In fact, it may have eliminated lots of arguments. There were times when she even asked me if that's what I had been doing. No need to go into details, but porn was sometimes involved.

Because of our current situation, (we are recovering from her EA), there is no SF and probably won't be for a while, so self pleasure is my only option. There are many guys (and I'm sure some gals) here in the same situation, and we're all dealing with that in our own way. Some will use porn as an aid, some won't. Can that lead to a porn 'addiction'? I don't know.

Self-pleasure to me isn't that big a deal anymore as long as there aren't adulterous thoughts. In other words, if H is thinking of me (or not really thinkig), that's one thing. But if he is thinking of the lady down the street, that would bother me.

That's where my issue is with porn, because it does involve another person, even if it's just virtual. But I know that isn't the point.

I know there are some basic addiction questions that people ask when it comes to other addictions, that can clue one in to whether it could be a problem. Maybe someone with experience in addictions will comment on that.

It does sound like some of this revolves directly around SF issues. I would recommend looking at that angle. Not because it is okay to hold anything over your head, but because I would bet if you could find a way to solve that problem, if the porn isn't an addiction, it might resolve itself.

All I know is paragraphs are your friend, 'sbgigri'.

grammar police! You sound like my daughter.

Your marriage has bigger issues than can be resolved by an online discussion forum. This is not the place to get the specialized help you need. I don't know how to advise you on how to find the proper therapist (and getting the "right" one is crucial), but your resentment is eating you alive. It's not going to get better on its own, and the bigger it gets, the harder it will be to deal with.

I think you need to deal with what's going on in your own head and heart muy pronto, and if, once you are an enthusiastic, equal, pleasured participant in marital SF, your husband STILL has a problem with porn and masturbation, then it will be time to deal with him.

tl

Oh, in my case, I totally agree. If there was no issue with SF, then the need for self-pleasure goes away and the need for the porn 'help' with it.

However, there may be others - in fact I'm sure there are otherwise the porn industry wouldn't be so huge - who use porn no matter if their SF needs are satisfied by their spouse. I don't thank that's the case with the original poster, though.

Background: I was LDS growing up. My mother was a convert when I was very young, and we were extremely active in the church from the time I was five. A decade later, she had an affair with a Mormon bishop, divorced the dad who adopted me when she married him when I was five, was excommunicated from the church, was rebaptized, and eventually married the affair partner. A few years ago, she received a "cancellation of blessings" from my dad and had a temple marriage with the stepfather. That stepfather passed away two years ago after seventeen years of marriage.

I never really liked the stepfather. Still don't. I hate what he did to my family, my mother, and me when they married when I was sixteen. Part of my determination to never divorce was due to the hell their affair put me through at a young age.

Interesting that her affair-partner-nee-spouse never needed a "temple divorce" from his former wife. This is a fairly common situation in the LDS church: although earthly "celestial marriage" (read: polygamy) is cause for excommunication, polygamy as an artifact in temple procedures lives on. Additionally, no temple divorce is necessary for two spouses to remarry civilly. So they remain married to one another for eternity, but to someone else "for time".

Contrary to popular belief, the LDS divorce rate almost perfectly parallels the average divorce rate based on region. What most couples don't do is go through the huge hassle of a getting First Presidency approval for a "cancellation of blessings" (source: Divorce and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons)).

Sorry for so much background, but in the interest of full disclosure, I feel it's important you know a little about me. Most LDS place a lot of emphasis on credibility, and those who do not understand the culture, doctrine, and importance of LDS practices by living them are rarely granted credibility in matters relating to the LDS lifestyle.

I faithfully served a mission for the LDS church from 1992 to 1994. I was honorably released, and then married the girl who "waited and dated" and wrote me faithfully and weekly the entire duration of my mission. We currently have four beautiful children.

I left the LDS church seven years ago after enormous internal struggle which I don't want to go into here. My wife did not leave the church with me, and in fact stepped up her diligence adhering to church efforts. She remains faithful to this day, and is trying to do the right thing despite her recent affair with another man.

Note that the church did not discipline her in any way as far as I know for her eight-month emotional affair. The "hard line" most leaders will apply church consequences at is contact with genitals. We recently read through "Love Busters" together, and are just about to start "His Needs, Her Needs". Things are getting much better, and I now regard her as a former wayward. The irony of me choosing someone who would choose to fall for another man while married is not lost on me. We live in Utah, and still very much live a "Mormon" lifestyle despite my apostasy and her affair.

I told you that so I can tell you this.

Your sexual difficulties with your spouse are incredibly common across many faiths.

Many women in many faiths resent husbands who resort to pornography and masturbation. It feels as if their husband is cheating on them with those other women they are fantasizing about. They see it as a kind of ongoing betrayal they are powerless to stop.

I totally get that. Even as a man, I understand the kind of deep resentment that comes from feeling that your spouse finds someone else more attractive than you and has virtual sexual relations with them.

But you are breaking yourself right now, and only you can fix you.

The problem right now is not your husband's pornography habit and masturbation. The problem is you putting yourself in a situation of constant sacrifice to try to get some control over his behavior. You cannot control your husband. You can only control yourself.

If you persist, you will continue to drain your Love Bank balance. Your sexual resentment will continue to grow. You will eventually cut him off completely and be unwilling to reconcile until he completely stops masturbating and viewing pornography. You will grow distant, and you will find some other man who is sympathetic to your plight. You won't believe how well he understands you. You'll feel drawn to him, deny your feelings for him, yet eventually find yourself in a full-blown affair because this other man meets your needs so well and promises you so much.

Think it won't happen? It happens to LDS women every single day. Those who believe themselves immune to an affair are most at-risk.

How do you go about restoring Love Bank balances? His pornography and masturbation habit is making massive Love Bank withdrawals at this point. You are sacrificing because you think it's the right thing to do and that maybe he will change his behavior permanently because you put out more.

Ain't gonna happen. You're going to get sick of it and give up, and then he's back to wanking on the computer again.

First article to read: How to overcome sexual aversion. Understand the steps and the process you're going to need to undergo. Due to your LDS background, you have some sexual hangups. These are common for women in many fundamentalist religions with strong proscriptions against premarital sex. You can fix them, but it will take time, understanding, and empathy from your spouse.

Second article to read: The Policy of Joint Agreement. If your husband does not resort to pornography and masturbation when he has regular sex with you, his sexuality is probably normal.

Third thing: Fill out an Emotional Needs Questionnaire together. Chances are good you'll find his expectation of frequency for sexual intercourse somewhere between four and seven times per week. THIS IS NORMAL FOR A YOUNG MALE.

Prior to marriage, most LDS young men masturbate just about daily. To a man, of course, they will typically lie about it due to strong moral convictions against it... but virtually all of them do it. Out of 300 full-time Elders in a given mission, approximately 290 of them will masturbate at least a few times per week (statistic pulled out of nowhere, but consistent with my experiences and discussions with numerous missionaries when I was on my mission).

So realize the LDS culture is partially to blame here for your husband learning to lie about masturbation. It's a tough pill to swallow, but even your happily-married bishop probably wanks at least once a week.

The LDS culture of prohibiting masturbation among males leads to an inability to live the Policy of Radical Honesty. In essence, the Church teaches men to lie about their personal sexual habits if they wish to have any hope of working in any leadership capacity. In this way, the Church also (mistakenly) ends up teaching women that men who masturbate occasionally are abnormal.

This could not be further from the truth. That's why I'm going to ask you to take an objective look at whether this is truly an "addiction" or not.

Is your husband a pornography addict? And, if so, how do you overcome it?

Even if he's not an addict, if his ongoing pornography use withdraws Love Units from you, that should be eliminated from your life.

That said, however, a wife forbidding her husband from masturbation when his wife is sexually unavailable is a selfish demand. Why not brainstorm a few solutions that will make you both happy?

I am going to share the solution my wife and I have come to, but I'm going to do it inside a "spoiler" box so that those who do not wish to read it can forego.


I hope that's of some help. Realize you have a lot of support and people here who understand exactly what you're going through. It's normal, extremely common, and in particular enormously common amongst Latter-day Saints. It can be overcome, but it does take diligence, hard work, and a willingness by both partners to be very honest about themselves.

Right now you're lying to your husband every time you have sex and claim it's good for you. It's time you started living the Policy of Radical Honesty yourself; you can teach your spouse by your example. In particular, learn to be honest about what you do and don't want, and help your partner learn how to make the experience pleasurable for both of you.

If you don't know how to take care of your own needs, realize that is also very, very common among LDS women. Dr. Harley references some other books in his columns above.

I apologize for the length of this post. As a mixed-faith LDS couple, we've struggled with the same sorts of issues. Learning how best to please my wife consistently, along with understanding what "normal" behavior is and how profoundly it differs from the unlikely ideals presented as "normal" by LDS leaders, has been a huge boon.

We've come to realize together that many cultural LDS ideals have very little to do with doctrinal ideals. We've learned that LDS leaders are NOT licensed mental health professionals and have very little idea how to resolve the common concerns of LDS and mixed-LDS couples. And finally, anything to which the two of us consent in the bedroom is OK and nobody's business but ours.

Lastly, I suggest starting to work through Dr. Harley's suggested course for couples wishing to strengthen their marriage. According to my LDS wife, it is perfectly in-line with LDS principles, and if every LDS couple lived according to the doctor's Four Guidelines for a Successful marriage, no marriage would fail. We are currently following Program #1 of Dr. Harley's books: "Love Busters", "His Needs, Her Needs", and "Five Steps To Romantic Love". Learning how to stop abusing one another has been a HUGE help in preserving our love for each other. We had very good reasons to fall in love and stay in love; those persist despite our differences over religion.

SBgrigri:

I echo the above sentiments that suggest that you two get counsel, work through the Harley's books. Even SAA, boy I wish read that before I rationalized cheating.

I too thought there was nothing wrong with porn as visual stimulation for my self-pleasure. But then it became easier than working through the problems interfering with SF. In retrospect,complusive porn viewing and masturbation has been a problem for me for years and contributed to the downfall of my marriage. Sexual Addiction of are sorts are real, sex creates intense pleasurable bio-chemical reactions in one's brain. That's why SF is so important, and why that pleasure should really be reserved to help bond to your spouse.

The only way you'll know if it's a habit or an addiction, is to work on the overall relationship and get objective, third-party help. Best of luck,my prayers are with you.

DT

Barnboy, I just wanted to say that I truly appreciate your post. As a non-practicing Mormon (I have been inactive for about 2 1/2 years now) I really found a lot of wisdom in your words. The LDS Church places many restrictions on personal behavior (including masturbation) that can lead to overwhelming feelings of guilt and shame.

@writer1 Thanks for the comment. I've frequently been very open about resolving sexual difficulties in marriage on these boards, and have taken a lot of flak for it. That doesn't prevent me from very, very strongly believing the health of a sex life is almost always a direct indicator of the health of a marriage. The LDS culture -- note I say "culture", not "doctrine" -- surrounding sexuality leads to very disturbing behavior among LDS youth.

I've had a number of extremely frank discussions with my teenagers, and my wife and I take turns when we have our yearly "sex chat" with the kids. We present the same facts, but usually she focuses on the spiritual and religious reasons for maintaining sexual standards, while I focus on the pragmatic and risk-management aspects. It works very well, and we typically learn a lot about one another and our children when we have these discussions.

Fact is, four out of five teenagers in the USA have had sex by the age of nineteen. That statistic changes not a whit because kids are in Utah, or have been raised LDS. But we Mormons and Former Mormons have trouble accepting the fact that we are just as vulnerable to temptation as every other human on the planet.

It often takes a fall to gain that humility.

And that's not a lesson I'd wish on anybody.

I sometimes wish Dr. Harley's course materials were required reading for teenagers and prospective brides and grooms in LDS congregations. A clear understanding of how Love works -- on a practical, non-dogmatic level -- and how to sustain it would provide measurable rewards.

My aunt moved to SLS to be by her daughter, who married a strict follower. My cousins (who were Mormon but no used to this culture) was shocked by the behaviors of the marrieds and non married.
I think the guilt and shame warp healthy thinking.

sbg:

How old are you and your husband? No I don't think that he is "bad" for doing what he has done, quite a few people in this world consider both porn and M normal.

I also understand your position, and I agree that you need help, more help than you can glean here.

If you are feeling abused, it is important to talk to someone about it.

The shame/guilt and loss you seem to be feeling are eating you alive. I know that is not healthy for you.

You need to decide what type of IC you need.

I think that both the original poster AMD her husband need help.

Once the issues causing her resntment are resolved, the poster could probably come to enjoy sex IF her husband learns how to seduce and pleasure his wife. It wouldn't surprise me if he makes very little effort to really please her.

If they do choose a therapist, they should pick one who was NOT referred to them by LDS Family Services. LDSFS is a private, non-profit institution wholly owned by the LDS church designed to place LDS individuals with Church-paid therapists.

Therapists within this organization are paid to protect the church, not assist individuals. Confidentiality is waived in the release form you sign before getting any therapy. Anything you say to a LDSFS counselor can and will be discussed with the LDS bishopric or higher authorities within the church.

While many practicing LDS don't see a problem with this practice, it certainly obstructs the possibility of healing those things which a person is unwilling to state in a confessional.

On an entirely different note, the LDS confessional is yet another reason why men are trained to lie about their sexuality from a young age. The LDS confessional is not privileged; the Bishop must report significant infractions up the hierarchy in order to "protect" the church and excommunicate people. LDS members can have no expectation of privacy in confession; everything serious they confess to is tagged, sorted, put into historical files and sent on up the chain to end up in the archives in Salt lake City...

Haha, come on 'luriossi', you know reading 50 lines without paragraph breaks will cause one to go blind.

I have my own views on certain types of porn and how it is used, but I wanted to comment on barnboy and writer's comments. It isn't just LDS that has this problem regarding open discussions of sex. I am southern baptist, and I heard a lot about sexuality that was VERY legalistic. Luckily our youth minister knew how to talk about sex in a positive light while maintaining the scriptural boundaries. But the subject of M never came up until I was in a singles class, and you should have heard how leagalistic and heated it got. I think churches do a disservice sometimes. My dad read this thing about parenting that he shared with me. He said it was like holding onto a bar of soap. Hold on too loosely, and it slides through your fingers. Hold on too tightly, and it shoots out of your hand. A gentle but firm grip works best. I think when we teach our kids about sex, that should be the approach. Then maybe they wouldn't struggle so much when they get married.

Okay, my sermon is done. Send your love offering care of The Lurioosi2 Relaxation and Recreation Fund

Given the masturbation context of the discussion, this line out-of-context made me laugh my head off!

<~~~ Barnboy