:I read over your potential letter to Mr. L4, and while I'll have to mull on the actual wording of what you want to say... I really think some sort of decision needs to be reached on this at this point. Pee or get off the pot, so they say. He needs to at least DECIDE if he wants to even attempt peeing! This is too much stress for you, him, and your kids this way.

You are correct that as a COUPLE you haven't tried everything to save your M. There are very blatant options that your H refuses to consider. And you can't "make" him. But you can say to him "I won't continue this M in this state, so either we get third party help, or its time for a separation" (that "modified plan B" that I've mentioned to you that Jennifer suggested to me. I thankfully never needed it, although was VERY close several times).

I'd be careful with the house and stuff like that also. Him asking about buying the house says to me that asking for a D was probably an emotional reaction on his part during your argument and not something that was well thought out. HOWEVER, he can't throw a D in your face and then ask you to buy a house days later, for pete's sake! I would think VERY carefully about buying a new house in the condition things are in right now- I really can't speak to that entirely because there's a lot that goes into buying a new house (financially, commutes, school districts, etc). And I don't know that I'd be so afraid to just outright TELL H that- that you're not comfortable buying a new house, etc, until your M is on more stable ground. That may be enough of a "message" to him right there.

I think at this point he's gonna stay in a state of limbo as long as he can, because moving either way for him is too painful. And while staying in the middle is painful too... the potential pain of the "unknown" is keeping him stuck. He needs a nudge to make a decision. Either way. This is slow torture.

I guess my point is I don't disagree with presenting some sort of option to him like you've suggested. In fact, I think it might be GOOD. And entering some sort of "modified plan B" if he won't agree to get third party help and exercise all of your options to fix your M. Not a D, just that you need to protect yourself from the hurt and pain of the limbo the M is in until he makes a decision. And he may decide not to recover... but at least then you can begin to heal... alone. Because I think its hard for you to even get PERSONAL recovery REALLY underway in this condition either.

My 2 cents.
E.

I've consistently taken the position that angry outbursts not only destroys romantic love in marriage (it's a Love Buster), but it makes it impossible to find solutions to all marital problems. So it should not be tolerated. The one having the angry outburst is the only one who can do anything about it, so I usually recommend a separation if the one having the angry outbursts refuses to do what it takes to eliminate it. The only other reasonable alternative is divorce because it will cause a complete, and dangerous, breakdown of your relationship, and there's nothing you can do to stop it. It's up to him

Here is what I am considering sending or saying to H:

"I don't think that we have had a good run at this. We have not done everything possible to try to rebuild this M. We haven't taken advantage of all the things that are available to us.

I agree that divorce is the best option if we are to continue these abusive ways of acting toward each other.

There is an option, however, that I feel may make a difference if we truly want to keep our family together. I would like to attend the Marriage Builders weekend. Unless we do that, I won't feel like we tried every effort to save our marriage for our children. We should be able to tell our kids that we did everything humanly possible to keep their family intact and protect them from divorce.

What do think about having a timeline before we make such a final decision? What do you think about us doing the Marriage Builders seminar and utilizing the Marriage Builders coaches over the next year. In a year's time, we see where we are. If you feel that we have made no progress, I won't fight you on divorce. Right now I don't want a divorce. I still believe there is much to save but I don't believe we can do it on our own. I feel very strongly that we need third-party help.

I've looked into the costs. It'll cost us $3,000 to $3,500 to go. MC once every two weeks with Dr. R would cost nearly $3,700 over a year's time.

I love you and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to repair the damage in our marriage."

Please just trust me that I can't do that again with anyone, let alone with the man I'm married to. I believe he feels the same.

Sere, I hope you didn't feel I was taking sides against you, becasue I certainly don't disagree with you.

I don't think I'm in disagreement with you all,

I suppose what I am saying is that in his current state of mind, he will see a separation as permanent and he may well be so self destructive as to completely detach from L4, leaving little or no possibility of reconciliation.

Let's not forget that we are all MB educated and can see the bigger picture. He cannot. J, ST's H read along here and therefore understood what their separation was about and understood their marital goal. Mr L4 does not have that.

My wife still has extremely difficult days, triggers and times she withdraws.... I consider this normal due to my A .... And this is with her being 100% onboard..... and after 2+ years of solid recovery.

With this in mind, I think you are expecting more from H than you should.