Agreed


Point taken. But if the person in question is the WS, the fact that they cheating still carries an implied DJ of sorts even if is not verbalized...just look at all the words we use on mb to described waywardness. I'll think on it.

That was the point I was trying to make. I don't disagree entirely with FOO being Fooey but Mr. L4 does not have the advantage as we do to recognoze this. If his bad habits are that entrenched and he doesn't want help (his choice) I don't think writing him off is the answer either. Pre MB or AA or whatever, there was someone to point this out. Mr L4 is simply flopping along.


I agree. In Mr. L4's case he has 2 OM with a number of yrs in between. I had the same. I don't mean to discount anyone's cruddy feelings but even Harley says the "more" betrayal you have to deal with the more resentment and more difficult it is to overcome. Some BSs do have more to deal with than others...and I'm not saying that anyone's pain is less but Mr. L4 has been dealt a crappy hand that most BS would find hard to recover from. If he has his own self esteem/abandonment issues on top of that, it just makes it that much harder for him IMO.

quote:tst -- Men complain about their jobs often and for various reasons. I have never met a man that enjoys his wife "pointing out" that he should just quit or look for another one. Most men I know just desire to hear how much their wife appreciates their efforts to provide for their family.... Admiration. Complaining about our job or our day is often how we gauge our wives moods and may even be a (lame) way of trying to start a conversation. But when we get shut down when our wife basically say's, "just quit" for the hundreth time...... Well, It's a huge DJ.....

This is good to know. I honestly don't think that I've ever thought that my response could be taken this way -- as an LB. (I wish you would have mentioned this sooner!)

I'm of the thought that when there is a problem and there is what I think is a clear solution, then the solution should be attempted.

H has been expressing dislike for his job for over 8 years and has admitted that it probably has contributed to our M problems. In the beginning, I used to just listen and empathize. But in the last few years I've lost almost all empathy for him on this one because it frustrates the bajeebaz out of me.

And my frustration is likely harming more than helping.

I have to remember (remember, remember, remember) that I can't control people and it is likely that H just wants to be heard, not advised. Thank you for pointing this out to me.

quote:tst -- How much effort have you put into learning about and implementing the art of "Respectful Persuasion"?

Much.

Like POJA though, it needs both participants to follow it in order for it to have a chance at success, doesn't it? If not, please teach me how.

I can assure you that, especially in the last few months, I have been very conscientious of starting with "How do you feel about..." or "What do you think about..." when I want to discuss or do something. I do my best to begin the conversation in a comfortable and safe way.

Where it breaks down is usually in just the second step of expressing our opinions with respect and understanding. I often feel disrespected when I have an opinion that differs from H's. He has told me that he thinks I disagree with him on purpose, just to piss him off. (I do not disagree to piss him off.) Since D-day, I do my best not to disagree with him and pick my battles, so to speak. And, unfortunately, I have some resentment built up. I've been trying to think of how I can express my honest opinions and feelings in a way that makes H feel okay -- okay about the fact that we may see things differently.

When we disagree, we don't even make it to step three to brainstorm and test, let alone step four of success or repeated brainstorming and testing.

quote:tst -- Suggesting that his childhood is what prevents him from __________ is a DJ. It�s also how we discount our spouses right to grieve for however long it takes them in regards to our infidelity (another DJ). Even the mere mention of all these maladies can be construed as a history re-write and one that attempts to blame shift (another DJ).

I am not as well-schooled in MB as you, tst, and most everybody here, and I do not have your life experiences. Based on what you say, I understand why you feel as you do about FOO. I hope I can explain why I have a different opinion, at least as far as FOO's role here and FOOs being DJs.

I do not believe that H's childhood is what is preventing him from doing anything. You used the word "suggesting" which makes me think it was not something that I wrote but that was interpreted. (This is where the written word proves limiting. Ugh!) If I am wrong and I did write that I believe H's past is the reason why he can't do something, I apologize and take it back because I do not feel that way. What he chooses to do or not do today is what causes things to happen or not happen today.

I do not agree that mentioning something -- especially something that is factual -- is a DJ. If a person chooses to construe a fact into a history re-write and/or DJ, that's their choice. If they do, that is the DJ, in my opinion.

I do believe that if I think or feel or believe something, no matter what that "something" is, that's on me. Not on my H, not on you, nor anyone else. I own that thought or feeling or belief because it is mine.

The most recent reference that I made about H's past that I can think of comes from a post I made in December when I was asked why I think H behaved a certain way:

quote:Looking4 -- My opinion is because he holds grudges (he admits this) and he likes to be in control. He is a master of passive-aggressive behavior. Because so much has been out of his control throughout his life -- parent's divorce, sister's death, brother's trouble, my cheating -- whatever he can possibly control, he grabs onto with both hands.

This is my opinion based upon what I know about H's past. Giving more detail to my statement of "so much has been out of control throughout his life" helps those who read here better understand why I might hold such an opinion.

I do not dwell on H's past, but I think context in any situation is relevant.

quote:tst -- If my wife posted my history, it would suggest that she believes it has a bearing on my current actions and it would be a DJ.

Why is posting a fact about one's past suggesting anything? Isn't saying that because she posted that history she believes ______... Isn't that a DJ?

Questions are often asked on these boards about a spouse's past -- FOO and other. If the person has been cheated on in a previous M, if they've cheated before, if their dad left their mother for an affairage... Knowing these things allows us strangers to give more meaningful advice -- to be able to better relate to why s/he might be acting as s/he is.

quote:tst -- I've seen way to many others use their spouses FOO issues as an excuse to not make changes in their own lives that would make them a better person and a better spouse in the process.

I don't think I'm doing this -- as least I am not intending too. I hope I've shown that I want to change.

quote:tst -- I have no control over my spouses FOO issues and how she chooses to lean on them or learn from them. I only have control of myself!

I agree!

quote:tst -- But if "YOU" use my FOO history to excuse, dismiss, blame, and judge my current actions in some way, then you are DJing.

Again, I do not believe I nor others here have used H's FOO issues nor mine to excuse either of our actions. My intent is to provide background that might possibly explain. If I've used them to excuse or blame or justify, I retract what I said and apologize.

I haven't had the chance to present the MB seminar idea to H yet. Was going to do so this afternoon but we had unexpected company. We have plans tonight so I won't have a chance again until tomorrow.

I've planned a date for H and me this evening including dinner at a very nice downtown restaurant then hopefully time at a blues or comedy club. I told H it's his choice. I'm hoping I'll be able to present later that little red outfit that I bought.

Thank you, everyone, for your questions and thoughts and advice. Please help keep me on task.

Baby-sitter will be here soon so I better get ready. I hope you have a wonderful weekend.

I hope you have a great, happy, "connection-making" evening.

It's interesting having pre-teen/teenaged kids in light of the FOO conversation. I can see myself and my husband in both of them. They have their own quirks and personalities, but the familiarity is there. Will those imprints remain into adulthood. Will who they are be - in part - a result of how we raised them, the kind of marriage they saw when they see us? Of course, if DS gets a girl pregnant and says it's because mom had an A, we won't let him off the hook with that. Just like he couldn't blame the fact that DH sometimes yells at them. But we have been a permanent live-in factor in their lives since they were laid on my chest in the hospital.

L4, I admit I took some of my recovery cue from my H. I was very tentative with head bowed unti he gave me signals that i was okay for me to need again. But by 1 year, he was ready, maybe even before. I realize now how lucky we got. I wish I could wave a magic wand. Actually, I wish my DH would post on here. He has much much wisdom, he is very honest with people in a straightforward way, and he has some unique insights. He is also a big advocate of balance, which is often hard to acheive.

Take care.

Praying that the night was a wonderful time together.

Mark

FOO stuff is really relevant, IMO. Anderson talks about this in her book.

This works really well for me and my H. In the past, I would be throwing blasts of AO's and DJ's at him now we either discuss calmly or I use the above and wait (ok I am not 100 percent there yet but close) for him to make the next move.

Let me tell you, my H has boatloads of FOO issues but I see him growing and changing nearly daily now. At one point he had written himself off to becoming his dad but not anymore.

My H had two A's and an OC from the second A. I had abandonment issues from my mom leaving for her OM when I was young. The forgiveness and beginnings of trust did not come until I saw real change, a desire to be a better man, a return to his faith and an understanding of what he had done to our family.

L4, you may want to consider that my point of view is the same as TST's. I see you as quite disrespectful to your H. I have always felt that way and I still do.

But, in the end, what you think or what I or TST think it doesn't matter......it is what your H thinks. If he thinks you are being disrespectful you are being disrespectful to him and that is what counts.

Respect is like air. If you take it away it is all people can think about. This instant your H perceives disrespect in a conversation your interactions no longer become about its original purpose it becomes about defending dignity.

A sign to watch for that people are defending their dignity is to watch a persons emotions become highly charged and they resort to pouting, name calling, yelling, and making threats.

I see it in this post. Your H is even telling you he doesn't trust you - you take away his dignity and he even tells you he doesn't respect you because of it.

And the abuse thing - be very careful in what you say. You better leave the marriage now if he is an abuser. This is what you should do.

But, you better make sure this isn't simply a bad marraige. A bad marriage has TWO people abusing EACH OTHER. And, if this is the case, you need to recognize your part in this and stop your part immediately.

And pray "Lord, help me forgive those who sin differently than I."

Hi Looking,

Hope you are doing well. Just thinking about ya.

L4, your personal FOO issues may be relevant on your own thread.
But mentioning or examining H�s FOO history is irrelevant.

Why do I say it�s irrelevant?

Because you cannot change it. Nor can you control it.

So it becomes little more than a distraction in the scheme of things. A distraction we do not have the luxury to indulge in when our goal is to build a better marriage for today and tomorrow.

When the discussions on MB turn to what our spouses should be doing, it distracts us from learning, studying and implementing the changes WE need to be making. We can only control OUR side of the equation.

A bit of personal story that may help you see why discussing our spouses FOO History is a DJ.

When I was active in my affair, I had several friends that wanted to talk to me about what I was doing. These men were friends of our marriage. When they sat down with me to discuss my adultery, I made brief mentions of my wife�s FOO history. I asked them if they knew my wife was sexually molested as a child�. And then I paused to let them make any judgment they wanted about that fact. It was my attempt to distract them of course, but more importantly it was a HUGE DJ. Just the mere mention of sexual abuse portrayed her, in some way, as damaged goods.

Besides being a DJ, I wanted to portray myself in some way as a victim too. Poor tst had a spouse that was damaged goods, it�s no wonder he does what he does. What a typical con I was. I should have been smacked with a 2x4.

Her FOO had NOTHING to do with my A!



L4, bringing up your H�s FOO portrays him as damaged goods as well. This is another reason I don�t like to see the discussion of spouses FOO on threads. I want to scream BULL whenever I see it.


Another thing;
You may not call him immature.
You may not say he is abusing you.
But you sure don�t correct any of the posters that slam your H in such a way. No, you come back and say, �I � Didn�t say those things on my thread�� If I did, please point it out to me. It becomes such a subtle way to say things about our spouses and act like a martyr ourselves when we do not defend them.


Please understand that I�m not saying we don�t bring our own life experiences, including FOO to the marriage. We do. They just have NOTHING to do with what�s necessary to recovering a marriage.

The focus needs to be on improving L4�s ability to improve as a person, mentally, physically, and spiritually. While focusing on all the things L4 can do to work the MB program with or without her H being on board. H�s FOO will become a red herring every time you chase that topic down the paths it leads to.

POJA doesn�t need both participants to follow it to have a chance at success. You can learn to work POJA from your (one) side of the marriage. It may not work perfectly every time, but it can become fruitful, given time and practice from you.

I don't recommend you give it a name when you use it with your H.

My hope is that those who have done this successfully will chime in and offer help for working POJA when a spouse is withdrawn or uncooperative. I also hope others don�t come along and say� you just need good boundaries, unless they also offer up practical application and explanation of that boundary in question.


Sacrifice is NOT POJA. You may have eliminated the incompatible behavior, but you have failed to create a compatible replacement that you are enthusiastic about.


Here�s the thing L4, POJA is only going to work for you when you become willing to stop participating in a debate that leads to SD�s, DJ�s and AO�s. POJA is NOT a debate. Anytime you find yourself in a debate with your spouse, you have entered an argument that leads to hurt feelings�� That�s not a negotiation.

As Dr, H says, �If your negotiation turns sour, and one of you succumbs to the temptation of the Taker with demands, disrespect or anger, end the discussion by changing the subject to something more pleasant.�

tst,

those were wonderful posts and not only did I enjoy reading them but I learned from them too. Thank you.

I can only speak from the point of view of a reader of L4's posts but I would say that L4's comments about her H'S FOO isues make me more sympathetic to his situation, not less.

If it were not for his FOO issues, I would have been more inclined towards L4 going towards a separation than carrying on with meeting his needs.

Way way back in this thread, I commented that I had a similar difficult upbringing to Mr L4 but I have overcome that. It has no bearing whatsoever on how I live my life, and I would never excuse my poor behaviour by complaining about my childhood. If I behave badly, it is all on ME.

BUT, I am a strong person and I have done a lot of reading and soul searching to get to a place where I can honestly say that my childhood does not adversely affect me. Mr L4 apparently seems unable or unwilling to put that work in. Maybe that's a DJ, but I'm only going on what L4 tells us.

Can I ask a question tst? Mr L4 refuses all help to recover his M but is willing to stay and go through the motions for now.

How long should L4 carry on like this? If L4 reads your comments and has a lightbulb moment about all that she has done wrong and does a sterling MB job of meeting needs, avoiding LB'ers etc, then how long should she do it before hoping to see some sort of committment from Mr L4?

What do you think is the minimum L4 should expect from her H at this point?

L4, I again start with the disclaimer that I am not an expert and that any perspective I give may be colored by my own experience. I don't want to thread jack, but I hope it is OK if I ask some questions.

First, it has been established in several threads in this site that one is responsibile for one's own feelings. In other words, if I am hurt by something my H does or says, it is my choice to be hurt. I can only control my own feelings, not my H's. I can definitely agree with this. However, there has also been mention that if one's H or wife feels anger, DJ's, disrepect from them, then that hurt, disrespect, or DJ is real. In other words, if my H feels disresepcted by me, then it is real. I have trouble understanding how MY feelings are my responsibility, but my H's feelings are my responsibility as well. It would seem that one of the above would be true, but not both.

Also, regarding boundaries. Boundaries are supposed to realte to my actions, not demand certain behavior from my H. I can agree with that. However, if my H knows that when he yells I am leaving the room, isn't it implied that I will contimue to leave the room until he stops yelling? So in that sense, my boundary really IS trying to convince a different action from him. Now, I believe the boundary of removing myself from AO's is good, but my H knows the only way to stop me from leaving is to NOT have an AO, or vice versa. So it really is practically impossible to separate the two.

This last one has been discussed a lot on a variety of forums. I have read the phrase "we should not forgive and forget" so many times. I think forgetting is a BAD idea. And short of a lobotomy or something, who could ever forget the pain of an affair? However, forgivness - the process - to me seems to be a positive thing. Forgiveeness is not a means of making sin "okay." That seems to be the major objection. But at some point, unless someone is just a sadist or a masochist, the act of holding an A over a spouse's head indefinitely cannot be good for the marriage. And it cannot possibly be good for either spouse. Perpetual punishment is not loving. I am saying this from the perspective of someone whose spouse chose forgiveness. I say chose because H will admit he really didn't feel like it sometimes. But these are HISc words: He was really struggling; he didn't want to D, but he just couldn't live with it and be so angry for the rest of his life. The thought that came to him was how much his sin had cost Christ, and how Christ had forgiven him completely. He thought, if the God of the universe could forgive me for cuasing His son to die, how can I not forgive my wife? Like I said, those were HIS thoughts, not mine. I would never ever presume to have told him he had to forgive the terrible thing I did.

I guess in addition to all of this, my question would be similar to sere's. How long does one live in MB perfection until one is allowed to ask for a glimmer of hope? If I was at the end of my rope and the response was, you need to be a better person and do so for 5 years, and maybe then you can have some expectations...I would probably drive off a cliff, and I am not sure I am kidding. And the fact that it was an honest answer would be little comfort to me. I feel I can go out on a limb here because even though my husband and I are not love robots or anything, we are recovered. So obviously something we did worked. And we do believe MB principles. We just aren't perfect yet.

So then, it's your husband's fault he was hurt from your affair???

And if you cussed your best friend out, and she feels hurt, it's her fault?

And if you told your child they were a worthless piece of crap, and they are hurt, it's the child's fault?

And if you lied to your friend/spouse/parent/etc., it's their fault that they feel angry about it?

And if you cheated in game and your fellow game player is angry or hurt, it's all their fault that the feel that way?




I completely get the "one is responsible for one's own feelings" thing. But it's like so many "sayings" in counseling/psychology fields. It starts out with a good purpose and a relevant application. But then it snowballs into a catch phrase that people throw around to sound wise/insightful/enlightened, and people no longer use common sense to determine if it is correctly applied.

When someone wrongs us, hurt and anger are normal, HEALTHY responses. God speaks of his anger and he speaks of ours, as well as our grief, hurt and sorrow. He acknowledges that they are appropriate and called for when we have been wronged.

L4, I don't believe it is right for your BH to call you hurtful names, I just think you haven't yet done a Plan A on him and his attitudes are very appropriate for the blow he took. Until you Plan A, REALLY PLAN A with no LBs (and hopefully you will soon begin to recognize just how often and in what manner you DJ him), you should not expect to see a "glimmer" in him.

I know you feel like you've been at this a long time and are discouraged that you have not seen positive responses/efforts from him. But I think your focus needs to turn to you and YOUR side of working MB.

L4, have you read Love Busters? Which books of Dr. H's do you have and which ones have you read?

You very carefully did not answer my question about whether your husband is abusive or is not? I am still hoping for a direct answer about that. I think it is VERY important to you receiving sound advice here.


Several people on your thread have accused your husband of being abusive, yet you have not corrected them. That is a pretty serious claim in my opinion, and if anyone accused my husband of being abusive and he was not, I would certainly have set the record straight. Since you did not, it does appear that you are in agreement that he is abusive.

If that is not the case...

Why did you not protect your husband's reputation here?

Why would you not do that for him?

smb, I agree with you wholeheartedly. When I cheated on my H, I am the one who was responsible for his hurt. I did it. If I say something usgly to him that hurts is feelings, I am responsible for hurting him. What I say and do DOES affect others. I think that is an important truth, and you nailed it on the head. It sounds really good to say, "I can choose what I feel." But when someone hurts us, it's not like we always have a choice about whether to feel hurt.

So, understanding that when I had a horrible affair, it was my action that hurt my H, I can also say that when H says something cuting and hurtful to me, it is his action that caused me to hurt. The onlt thing I question sometimes is that idea that since I cheated 3 1/2 years ago, I am responsible for BOTH our pain until......who knows.

Listen, I am pretty much like some of my friends who used to smoke. They have less tolernace for smoking than anyone I know. When someone is having an affair and is unrepentant and is trying to gaslight everyone around them, etc. I have no patience for that. In fact, there have been times I have wanted to post to people in that state, but I couldn't think of any way to post that wouldn't have gone beyond blunt to the point of being....just angry. If I ever start down that "how could I have done that" road of memories, I still make myself sick. I just guess that part of me does have a softness when someone's horror over what they have done and desire to make it right seems really genuine. I remember praying every night that H would please stay so that I could make it up to me somehow (which I know can't really be done). We made it, and I guess I want everyone to be able to. I hope I wasn't offensive.

I meant to say make it up to HIM. My fingers are cold!!

I think too many WS's end up here as I tend to see it as the exception and not the rule. Thinking the problems in the marriage, a year, 2 years, 3 1/2, are due to the BS holding the A over the WS's head.

I think the WS may not hear what is being communicated by the BS. That the problems in the marriage after some point aren't because of the A. It is due to things like LB's, lack of POJA, lack of honesty.

If you focus on the process - why communications between the two escalate into arguments and LB'er after LB'er you will slowly stop repeating these LB'ers.

It is very hard to see another's point of view when you are all emotional after they LB'er you. That is why you can escalate into DJ's.

But, if you can stop and keep your emotions in check after a LB'er and reach out to the other to see there point of view and to understand why the LB'er occurred and that there LB'er may have been the result of your LB'er you can very often pull them back into very sensitive conversations.

It is similar to why two different people can talk to you about very sensitive issues and you become defensive with one and willing to listen to the other. The content of the discussion is the same. So, it really isn't the content that is the issue. It is motives. One you trust and aren't safe with. Another you trust.

You have to respect someone to have your best interests in mind otherwise you don't feel safe in the conversation and it becomes very difficult to communicate about sensitive issues.

Search for a common purpose(good for both) and insure respect(the person's point of view and feelings have value as the person is not a worthless idiot - it is easy to point blame). If you don't have those the conversation will likely break down into LB'ers especially the more sensitive the topic being discussed.

It is the synergy between two people we are looking for. The synergy of two being better than one. It is the bond that results from this synergy and understanding of each other that brings us so close.

Respect each other so you can leverage your strengths and celebrate your differences. Sounds easy and it is when you figure it out. After all the hurt it becomes easy to judge and call the other all screwed up as that is our instinct.