Regarding the "emotionally immature" remark.

It wasn't L4 who made that remark. I made the comment based on all that I have read on this thread and others as well as all that I have experienced myself.

I think Mr L4's behaviour does show a level of emotional immaturity. Whether that comes from his difficult childhood or not is unknown. I meant no disrespect nor do I believe I was being critical of Mr L4. In fact, I have been sympathetic to his situation.

It was my observation based on his up to now unwillingness to help himself in this recovery process. He refuses IC, MC, reading atricles or books and counselling with the Harleys.

He is unable to be truly intimate with L4 and keeps her at arms length. His emotional immaturity, IMVHO aids the emotional disconnection that resulted from L4's confession.

He's happy to discuss L4's failings and what he needs from her, but is unable to open himself up to her to discuss his failings, his vulnerabilities, and his pain. He is only able to express his pain through anger and that does seem to show a certain level of emotional immaturity. He seems to seek to control situations through manipulation and avoidance.

I am not saying he is immature. In every other way he may well be a very mature man, but is he able to discuss his feelings, his pain, his worries and his fears in an open, safe and consructive way? At the moment, I would say not, and that does seem to give some credence to my thoughts on his level of emotional maturity.

Surely, the mature way to deal with pain is to seek treatment for it? Surely, if someone tells you that they know a way to make the pain go away, you would at least look into it?

As an aside, I don't think Mr L4 is alone as an adult struggling with this. BB would agree (I've just asked him) that he is working on his emotional maturity and his abilities to share feelings with me. Prior to D-Day he would do almost anything to avoid real intimacy with me, and by intimacy, I mean a deep connection where feelings, thoughts, desires and fears are shared.

I'm sorry if my comment caused offence L4, and I do bow to your wisdom on this tst. Just wanted to clarify where I was coming from.

Hi L4. I was sitting next to tst typing his posts while he dictated. I even added in a line or two myself.

L4, can you please describe the abuse everyone is talking about on your thread.

In what ways have you been abused?
Was this abuse prevalent before the affair?
And why don't you seek a shelter if you are in an abusive situation?

Yes it would, But, I think that L4 tightens up her boundaries she will not feel like AOing becasue she has protected herself form the hurt of H. (this from my recent experience). So this I think can be started one sided. Yes, MrL4 may get uglier in the beginning as he realises these boundaries are consistent and a part of L4


Well, this is in a way where i got lucky. I was seriously withdrawn- I couldn't get near J at all, depsite desperately wanting to recover te M, i kept forcing myself back into it. BUt in the end I got a kind of let off, almost like an exemption and these aren't exact quotes and I can't becasue I this part of my thread disappeared. But Mark allowed me some grace. He said that it was feasible that a WW could have an even lower LB� than the BS becasue of the pre A M. This stopped some confusion in my head and helped me to refocus. I always accepted responsibility for my A; but quite often here on MB the state of the the pre A M seems to be disregarded - I accepted my 50% of the crap of the pre A M and with Marks very heavy guidance understood boundaries. And with everyone else's support was able to implement them. This is why I urge L4 to really establish boundaries with MrL4 so that she doesn't become so seriously withdrawn from him that it makes it impossible for her to feel anything for him.

She totally does need to preserve what is left. Totally, because she is the one here doing the work and she will not be able to do that unless she protects herself. She needs to protect herself right now so that she doesn't end up hating MrL4.

Please can I re- emphasise this particularly for newbies but also for Ivetz or HW if you happen to be reading along.

Sere -- Thank you for your faith. Please give my best to BB and may you two continue to be a beacon for the rest of us.

I'm listening.

Sometimes out of self-protection, as being here can be hard for me. Also H has made comments about my computer use so I am trying to be sensitive to that. Today he's working and I'm not so I'm taking full advantage.

I don't shove my feelings because life gets in the way. At least I don't think I do. (I've been wrong before.) I could and will share all night if given the opportunity. I think I don't share everything with H for two reasons:

1.) I don't want to trigger him. Early on I was told here to go elsewhere with my feelings -- that H can't be responsible for helping me heal. Until he's on board with trying to rebuild this M, I want to try to avoid possible triggers.

2.) When I tell him how I feel he can get defensive, as if my feelings are a direct reflection of him. It hurts me to think (not know) that he doesn't care how I feel. I've mentioned here more then once that I don't trust H with my feelings. I've told him this too. And there are reasons why I feel this way.

I can't tell you why H shoves his feelings, but it's been his M.O. for as long as I've known him. He'd have to tell you why.

Yes, I do.

So many here have this stuff down. I feel some days like I'm on the outside looking in. That my situation isn't like anyone elses and no matter how often or how much I post, I won't ever be able to paint a complete and objective enough picture to give y'all what you need to help me help H.

I'm not intentionally hiding. I'm disappointed in myself for not being the MBer that I want to be. And feel like I'm disappointing not only H but also people here. Hard to come and admit that. (Geez, I feel like I'm in a therapy session.)

Without any doubt.

Music concerts. Watching movies. SF. Camping. Mixing drinks/wine tasting. Dancing. At least I think so. I'm hesitant in saying this for both of us. Last Thursday during the convo when H said he thinks we should D, he said, "We don't have fun any more." This took me by great surprise and I said, "What? What isn't fun for you?" He didn't answer.

Thank you for the refresher.

Being with me doesn't seem to be of urgent importance to H. He goes out more with his friends and brothers that with me, even when I've asked him to please stay home. (Requesting him to stay is a recent thing for me, within the last 3 or 4 months.)

What I need to do is bring it up to H in an appropriate way.

How can I explain to him how critical UA is to us falling back in love when a.) he's not sure he wants to be in love with me; b.) he doesn't subscribe to MB and therefore might think UA is a bunch of hooey; and/or c.) he doesn't want to be with me for whatever reason?

Still reading along.


Bravo, ST. Egg-zack-lee MY experience also. When I was also being told that all of my H's behavior was "normal" and that I just had to "understand" because I was the one that had an A (this was after a year and a half).

And- true MARITIAL recovery didn't even BEGIN in our case UNTIL I understood and implemented not ONLY a strong Plan A... but STRONG, STRONG boundaries.

Because I didn't have boundaries prior to my A. And THAT led to my A directly in an obvious way... but also indirectly because I didn't practice boundaries with my H either... and ALLOWED him to LB all of my love for him right out the window with his AOs and IBs. Instead of standing up, respecting myself, and no longer accepting that behavior from him. I ALLOWED him to destroy my love for him, with my lack of boundaries. And lack of boundaries with my H and also with other men is what led to my A-- plain and simple.

For a long time I thought that implementing boundaries with other men would be enough to prevent another A. It took a long time for me to understand I WAS protecting OUR MARRIAGE by instating boundaries with my H. And by NOT instating boundaries, I was allowing him to destroy our M. And I was just as much at fault for him as he was. Sure I could say "you should get help for your AOs!, you can't deal with your anger!"... but I was also at fault because I WAS ALLOWING THAT.

Boundaries- WITHIN my Marriage SAVED my marriage. Plain and simple. Of that I am 150% sure. And a lot of times I don't see a whole lot of differences between L4's H and mine. I think our SITUATIONS in life are different-- but our H's are very similar. Or were.

E.

Lu - Thank you for your fantastic post. I really really appreciate your story and your advice.

TST -- I'm glad you don't hold back.

Sere -- I wasn't offended and thank you for your clarification. I think many of us could improve in our emotional faculties. As always, I'm glad you're here.

SMB -- Please dictate away.

I can't think of what abuse you might be referring to that "everyone is talking about" so if you can direct me to those comments they'd help me answer you better. TST is the only one who I recall has recently used the word abuse and it was in reference to physical abuse in his post yesterday. It read:

I commented on this with quotes from Dr. Harley's Love Busters where Dr. H identifies abuse other than physical.

I have not stated on my thread that I have been abused.

ST -- Thank you for your feedback. Sweet dreams.

This is where I am.

This is where I want to get to.

Eeyore's post knocked my socks off. Now my story is definitely colored by my H's actions and reactions as well as my own. And make no mistake, he was crushed and angry, and he grieved big time. And for a long time I focused soley on making amends and helping him heal.

But after a certain point, the reason we moved forward is because he made the decision to truly recover. It wasn't a decision I could force or cajole. But to us, recovery does no mean the WS never forgets her A and the BS shows her great mercy by sticking around. For us, recovery meant healing, forgiving (not forgetting), and moving forward. Had my H not decided to move forward, it wouldn't have mattered how wonderful I wife I became. Not in the long run.

Eeyore said something about being told to understand because she was the one who had the A. I understand this, but somehow, some way, that canno be the indefinite fallback position. H and I had a couple of words last night. It was small, and we both apologized. But it had nothing to do with my A. It was just an irritation. We have come to the place - for awhile now - that all hurts and tension are NOT somehow tangetally related to the fact that I had an A. That to me is paramount in true recovery.

I say implement consistently in its essantials. But undrstand the human factor. When I had DD someone gave me a book that was about family centered parenting. Some of it had to do with getting a baby on a schedule. I tried to do everything the book said, and DD slept though the night at six weeks. But sh had a couple of phases where she suddenly wanted to eat all the time. To stick to the letter of the book would have meant her screaming for an hour and a half. Not gonna happen. So I had to tweak. Nothing wrong with that. It's not a religion.

I am praying for you, L4, and that is not something I say to everyone, because if I am ot actually going to remember to, I don't think I should say it. Keep trucking.

L4, I can go through most of your posts(not the short or fun ones) and point out DJs either in you thinking or in real life statements you say you have made. I'm not going to pick you apart, but I will give you one example that stands out in a huge way to me.


Men complain about their jobs often and for various reasons. I have never met a man that enjoys his wife "pointing out" that he should just quit or look for another one. Most men I know just desire to hear how much their wife appreciates their efforts to provide for their family.... Admiration. Complaining about our job or our day is often how we gauge our wives moods and may even be a (lame) way of trying to start a conversation. But when we get shut down when our wife basically say's, "just quit" for the hundreth time...... Well, It's a huge DJ.....


You know your H better than me, but my guess is your H's need for admiration is very high and may even be tied for #1.


I'll try to answer some of your other questions later.

L4, go back to the book LoveBusters and read the chapter on DJ's.

After you've read the chapter, please come back and answer one simple question for me;

How much effort have you put into learning about and implementing the art of "Respectful Persuasion"?

Suggesting that his childhood is what prevents him from __________ is a DJ. It�s also how we discount our spouses right to grieve for however long it takes them in regards to our infidelity (another DJ). Even the mere mention of all these maladies can be construed as a history re-write and one that attempts to blame shift (another DJ).

Your desire to provide H�s �factual� history causes others to project DJ�s on to him as well.
Does the fact that I was beaten regularly as a kid lead to any relevant conclusions about who I am today. Or how about the fact that My father was a drunk. Or that I was in an Inpatient Alcohol & Drug rehab for 45 days when I was only 17. Legal woes, car wrecks, etc. etc. etc�. ad nauseum. If my wife posted my history, it would suggest that she believes it has a bearing on my current actions and it would be a DJ.

I hope that clarifies it.





Thanks for clearing both of these up!

Not at all!


Although I do get the feeling that if I scatter some estrogen capsules around on this thread, that all will be well.

Just kidding

Ditto. I know it's very early on for me but I feel in my water that this is my story too.

I see from they way you post E that there are not a lot of differences in our "old" relationships. The same as I can feel the similaties between the old me and L4 and MrL4 and the old J.

Hope you are sleeping well L4

Hey L4!

Just wanted to drop by and catch up.

I don't have much advice to give but you seem to be getting tons of great stuff. I know you are frustrated and...tired. This is such a tough journey. I know there were many times that I felt as if I was feeling around in the dark...clueless as to where I was much less how in the heck I was suppose to get out of there since everything I had been trying wasn't producing concrete results.

I'm also glad that you recognize that physical abuse isn't the only type of abuse. Emotional bruises on the inside can hurt just as much and destroy just as much as physical bruises on the outside...and usually take much longer to heal.

Keep up the good fight.

I object lol.

IDK tst...I understand what you are saying and FOO issues aren't the end all be all since in the end a person makes a choice to behave I certain way and is ultimately accountable regarless but I do think FOO issues play a role in how a person handles their problems. I wouldn't give a free pass to anyone because of their upbringing but it does put it in context for me. I sort of see it the same as annoying habits that need to be broken when you are making your spouse unhappy. I don't mean to DJ my H if I bring up his past but I do honestly believe they shaped how he handles problems which wasn't very well...obviously.

Are you looking for your capsules? I'll share mine with you.

BR, I am very strong in my opinions about FOO issues because of my experience in the rooms of AA and Na for the last 27 years. I've seen way to many people whine and cry the oh, pour me, pour me, pour me.....right up to the point that they step up to a bar and say pour me another drink..... and end up on a drunk again.

I've seen way to many others use their spouses FOO issues as an excuse to not make changes in their own lives that would make them a better person and a better spouse in the process.


I have no control over my spouses FOO issues and how she chooses to lean on them or learn from them. I only have control of myself!

If "I" want to discuss "MY" FOO history because I'd like to investigate if they still have a hold on me in any way.... nothing wrong with that. But if "YOU" use my FOO history to excuse, dismiss, blame, and judge my current actions in some way, then you are DJing.

FOO issues and many other things including the way we interact with our spouse cause us to develop habits that can be very hard to break. We also have instincts that we have to deal with. But all of these things either make Love Bank deposits or withdraw units from the Love Bank. Those that add to it need to be repeated. Those that withdraw from it need to be eliminated.

It does not matter one bit the source, reason or original purpose of these things only that they be eliminated.

If we have learned to manipulate other people via AOs, DJs, SDs, lying etc, then we need to learn to stop doing those things. Whether we learned those things from our FOO or simply from trial and error, or in reality from the fact that they are all really instinctive ways we try to get what we want from other people, they are tools of our Taker, we still need to get rid of them.

The problem here is that we only have control over our own actions and not the actions of other people, whether spouse or total stranger. And this is where boundaries come into the mix.

Boundaries do not, cannot and never will eliminate the actions that hurt us. The best we can accomplish is to no longer be hurt by those actions. It does not require an ultimatum nor an argument in order to establish and protect a boundary. It simply requires the understanding that we will begin to protect ourselves by not allowing the abusive behavior to continue harming us.

It might mean we will walk away before it gets to that point. It might mean that we will withdraw from our spouse until the actions change. It might mean that we will divorce because we cannot live that way any more.

Whatever the enforcement of our boundaries, we still have no control over other people. None...Nada...Zip...Zilch...

Sometimes it is as simple as a statement...

I can't live like this any more.

So call me when you are willing to address your hurtful actions.

It won't be pretty. It won't lead to SF that night. It won't fix any issue of the past, present or future. It will stop the pain of the actions.

If I touch a hot stove and it burns me, how long do I have to keep touching the stove? I can't make the stove not burn me but I do not have to keep touching it.

AOs, DJs, SDs, lying and IB are all INSTINCTS. We don't learn them from our FOO or from anyone else. WE are born with them. They are what we do (our Taker side) to get our own way.

What IS learned is that these things work. They DO get us what we want if we learn how to use them to manipulate those around us. We keep using them to get our way (and to PROTECT ourselves) until they no longer work. THAT is when we begin to learn new ways of protecting ourselves, asking for what we want and no longer having to protect ourselves by hurting others.

FOO?

Fooey!

JMO...

Mark