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Originally Posted by Dude007
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
IMHO, THIS is the statement that needs to be clarified:

Quote
Dr. Harley kept trying to persuade me to reconsider and, to my surprise, started contradicting his own MB.com principles(!).

Specifically, what priniciples did Dr. H (or whomever) contradict? How?

So Dr Harley said he would instantly PLAN D his wife, but somehow made all this great material to save other marriages? Thats plausible but strange..DUDE

I do not know if those were his exact words but yes he stated that he did not think he would be able to recover from infidelity and would go to plan D.

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Originally Posted by Dude007
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
IMHO, THIS is the statement that needs to be clarified:

Quote
Dr. Harley kept trying to persuade me to reconsider and, to my surprise, started contradicting his own MB.com principles(!).

Specifically, what priniciples did Dr. H (or whomever) contradict? How?

So Dr Harley said he would instantly PLAN D his wife, but somehow made all this great material to save other marriages? Thats plausible but strange..DUDE

I have personally spoken to Dr. Harley about that particular quote of his that is trotted out so often. He will tell you that he doesn't really know what he would do under those circumstances. He realizes that no one knows until they are faced with it themselves.

Not to mention, Dr. Harley and Joyce work MB in their own marriage. They have a VERY affair proofed marriage. Think about it, if you strictly adhere to POJA an affair is IMPOSSIBLE...

Mrs. W


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

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Not really dude.

Most people come here to fix their marriages and learn the tools to make their marriages great.

Dr. H and Joyce live these tools and principals every day.

Based on that, I think his point is there is nothing further he could do....

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Originally Posted by Dude007
So Dr Harley said he would instantly PLAN D his wife, but somehow made all this great material to save other marriages? Thats plausible but strange..DUDE

I would instantly plan B with D right on it's heels if my H had any A in the future.
WHY?
Because we KNOW what to do to avoid an A, therefore, it would be a deliberate & intentional & planned slap to our M if either of us had an A.

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Originally Posted by MrsWondering
Originally Posted by Dude007
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
IMHO, THIS is the statement that needs to be clarified:

Quote
Dr. Harley kept trying to persuade me to reconsider and, to my surprise, started contradicting his own MB.com principles(!).

Specifically, what priniciples did Dr. H (or whomever) contradict? How?

So Dr Harley said he would instantly PLAN D his wife, but somehow made all this great material to save other marriages? Thats plausible but strange..DUDE

I have personally spoken to Dr. Harley about that particular quote of his that is trotted out so often. He will tell you that he doesn't really know what he would do under those circumstances. He realizes that no one knows until they are faced with it themselves.

Not to mention, Dr. Harley and Joyce work MB in their own marriage. They have a VERY affair proofed marriage. Think about it, if you strictly adhere to POJA an affair is IMPOSSIBLE...

Mrs. W

If you simply adhere to your VOWS an affair is impossible...DUDE

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I can't believe this thread is still going AND that I even opened it but I'm glad I did or I would have missed this:
Originally Posted by Dude007
If you simply adhere to your VOWS an affair is impossible...DUDE

After all this time, I don't understand why this is so hard!

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@ SurgarCane :

His motto? He has written that he would divorce. How does that become his motto?


Good lord calm down when I said his motto I meant his stance on marriage that if his wife cheated he would instantly divorce, I might have the wrong man who made this statement, but don't jump down my throat.

The motto of Marriage Builders, which Dr Willard Harley created (there is no such person as "the elder SH") is "building marriages to last a lifetime".


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Originally Posted by Dude007
If you simply adhere to your VOWS an affair is impossible...DUDE

Completely agree! Hindsight and all that jazz...POJA though does something that vows should, but often do not...Create an interdependent lifestyle...that is a huge part of affair prevention...

Mrs. W


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

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Originally Posted by Tabby1
I can't believe this thread is still going AND that I even opened it but I'm glad I did or I would have missed this:
Originally Posted by Dude007
If you simply adhere to your VOWS an affair is impossible...DUDE

After all this time, I don't understand why this is so hard!

A POJA is the details that backup the VOWS. It sucks you have to explicitly state things that are ASSUMED as obvious in your wedding vows. Go read a POJA and tell me everything in it is not common sense assumed when you take wedding vows. DUDE

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Originally Posted by swan's song
@ SurgarCane :

His motto? He has written that he would divorce. How does that become his motto?


Good lord calm down when I said his motto I meant his stance on marriage that if his wife cheated he would instantly divorce, I might have the wrong man who made this statement, but don't jump down my throat.

The motto of Marriage Builders, which Dr Willard Harley created (there is no such person as "the elder SH") is "building marriages to last a lifetime".
Your previous post made no sense and neither does this one.


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�MB is ultimately about the truth. And one day, you got it all.�

I doubt it. No adulterer ever tells all the truths. Not even you.


�You had a chance, you had all the tools, your sitch wasn't that unusual, and your WW wasn't the worst in the bunch of them around here.�

That is a patently ridiculous thing to write in this case.

Four (count�em: 4) OM�s for crikey�s sake. And those are just the ones he knows about! His wife�s adulterous behaviors started very early in their marriage and have continued non-stop the entire eighteen years of it.

This may be an archetype example of one of those other problems that needs to be fixed first kind of things. It appears to the casual observer LG�s WW has serious, serious personal problems and SH is not going to be able to fix her, no how. He is a marriage counselor, by his own admission, not an IC.


�MB is for building marriages.�

Actually, it is also for learning when the BS should cut their losses. How many times have you read here not all marriages should or can be saved?


�I would have been disappointed in Dr. Harley if he did not try to persuade you to try again.�

I thought LG�s M was doomed from way back. How many D-Days are we willing to force LG to suffer through anyway, just to preserve an MB dogma? Is one more chance really enough? I bet if she did it again the same posters would still be saying give her one more chance. And then again one more. And again. Lets, see. Four OM�s and starting early in the M is not enough for MB to say this is an M that should not be saved. Hmmm�. Would seventy times seven adulteries be enough before MB will allow a BS to end their suffering?

And as to violated principles (methods, actually)? Allow me to quote some MB scripture: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html

�With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree.� Emphasis mine.


�Somebody, I don't know who, is going to benefit from that better Mrs Former LG. Because she is going to be better. And for the next 20 years, you will be looking in the window wondering why you threw it all away.�

Sheesh. No, she won�t be better. Maybe craftier better. She is who she is. She is who she has been since the beginning of the M. Don�t you read? So, now the demise of the M is LG�s fault too, huh? WS everywhere will love this one. But then this is coming from a WS, isn�t it.


No adulterer deserves to remain married. Or to be married to anyone at all, ever again for that matter. It is solely up to the BS to decide whether or not to try to (emphasis mine, again) recover. And sometimes it takes the average BS quite a while to decide. I can say in all certainty I should not have listened to MB in the confusing two years after D-Day 2 of the 10 year VLTA. I now know I should have D�d right away. I probably still will, eventually. In my own time. But it would have been so much less painful to get it over with right away. MB did me no great service in getting me to try to recover. Recovery has been a huge waste of time. I simply cannot get over it. And like LG, I don�t think I even had an M to recover.


LG, I am happy to see you will not waste any more of your precious time.


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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Originally Posted by Pepperband
I would instantly plan B with D right on it's heels if my H had any A in the future.
WHY?
Because we KNOW what to do to avoid an A, therefore, it would be a deliberate & intentional & planned slap to our M if either of us had an A.


Really? They were totally ignorant of, and lacking in, morals and ethics?

From birth?

Come on, they always knew what to do to avoid adultery. WS don't suddenly appear out from some hidden dimension. They grew up in society. They see. They think. They know.

And they do it anyway.


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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Originally Posted by Aphelion
Really?

How you doin'?
Got anything nice to say to me? flirt


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Originally Posted by Dude007
A POJA is the details that backup the VOWS. It sucks you have to explicitly state things that are ASSUMED as obvious in your wedding vows. Go read a POJA and tell me everything in it is not common sense assumed when you take wedding vows. DUDE

Really, Dude? You never did anything in your marriage without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse? No independent behavior whatsoever? Hmmmmmm.... think

Mrs. W


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FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

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Originally Posted by Pepperband
How you doin'?
Got anything nice to say to me? flirt


Maybe.

Is this a dare?

As in, "That all you got?"

Hmmmm, how about...err...I like the...you...


OK, OK, let me get back to you.







"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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I agree that no adulterer is capable of being truthful. No adulterer is capable of doing the right thing. No one who is an adulterer will ever display anything except dispicable character.

Which is why am sooooo thankful that it is possible for someone to become a former, repentant adulterer. Not every adulterer makes that choice. Some would rather continue being adulterers. There are no honest wayward spouses. There are only honest FORMER wayward spouses.

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Originally Posted by Aphelion
Is this a dare?

As in, "That all you got?"

I assure you, I have no ulterior motive.


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Oh man, now I am really worried.


Ok, how about: I like the way your hair sticks out all over in your wet t-shirt picture.



"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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Really.


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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I just don't understand why there is hostility between us.

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