NCWalker,

I do get it, and I agree with you, and that is what it is I am looking for, being there for one another and as you said shoring each other up. Finding that guy is the hard part, and I am just not into seeing how many frogs I can kiss before finding that prince.

But I know that there is a guy out there for me, he just hasn't crossed my path yet!

I'm in the exact same position as Lady M in her first post. I can totally relate.

I've been divorced for 20 years and haven't even been asked out on a date. How's that for a boost of self esteem? I'm now in my late 50's but attractive, well dressed, great job, fabulous apartment that I own, no debt, drive a beautiful car, not a cheater (husband was and left me for OW that he's been married to now for around 15 years), I'm independent and don't "need" someone, I just don't relish the idea of spending the rest of my life alone but here I am all these years after divorce - alone. Unless and until the right one comes along, I don't intend to settle.

I've been doing the online dating thing which gets a bit exhausting at times but I'm giving it a try. I've met some nice men (my radar is very attuned to tossers and cheaters!) but no chemistry or sparks with any so far.

I just wish that I could find some AGG's and Fred in VA types where I live. AGG to me is the epitome of a smart, wise and savvy man. No wonder you got snapped up AGG!!! What a great catch. I still remember your trials with "G" a coupla years ago with all her "stuff". I was so glad you moved on from her.

dkd,

Wasn't implying that. Was only stating that I like independent women, and I don't understand guys who don't.

There are nice guys out there who want a dependent woman. I don't think one can equate nice guy with wanting an independent woman, or bad guy with wanting needy woman. I have seen all four possibilities.

It does suck, dating, once you are out of college, the big pool of potential people is very small. And it takes so much time to date, that it is really frustrating to even go on one that is a no.

Would have been easier to fix the marriage... :-D

I'm on board with this, too. I think I married The Leopard too hastily because I was afraid to lose her. Prior to our relationship, the only recent experience I had was as the "rebound romance" with a woman who kicked out her commitment-phobic boyfriend of five years who then took him back the moment he "realized what he was giving up."

Other than that, my experience of dating was that either the women I was attracted to had no interest in me, or vice-versa. It can be frustrating, indeed.

I still remember going on a "blind date" that a good friend had set up. The woman was an attorney - a public defender - and quite the independent woman. I took her to lunch at a Thai restaurant. Toward the end of lunch, she rose to go to the powder room and I stood up as she did.

She nearly leveled me with her "don't patronize me" speech. This is an example of what NCW spoke of earlier. I was simply rising respectfully as I'd been raised to do, but this woman took it as an insult to her self-gained independence and took it as an insult.

Needless to say, there was no second date.

Awwww, that's very sweet, even if not fully deserved . My goodness, "G" was a nightmare in the making, and I am also glad that I was able to shake it off and move on. She contacted me about a month after I got married to see where "things were" with me, at which point at told her that I am happily married. I suspect she's still in the same limbo she was back then.

So since all this was before your registration date, I am curious what your username was back then???

BTW, I totally agree with your outlook of not wanting to settle but also not wanting to be alone all your life. Dating is a numbers game, and the more Mr. Wrongs you'll meet, the closer to Mr. Right you'll get! Folks don't like hearing that, but it's true - when you find Mr(s) Right, you'll really appreciate just how wrong all the previous Mr(s) Wrongs were. it's like night and day.

AGG

You said the same thing on my thread. I have been mulling it over...makes sense.

Not my marriage. Ugh.

As to the dependent woman....Hmmm....I don't like thinking of myself as dependent even though I've been a SAHM homeschooling my son for 10 years. I'm capable of working-clearly will have to some day, but I definitely attract men who want to take care of me. And I have to say there is a certain appeal to that. I liked taking care of husband/child/house/home/yard while XH made the money. I appreciated his contributions but he never appreciated mine.

I would like to slap women who do this stuff.

I have never understood the rationale behind acting so churlishly to someone who is being considerate. I hold the door for others. I give up my seat for old people and pregnant women. It's called manners, not patronization.

Just what I was thinking. The man I went to dinner with last week held my coat for me to get into...guess I should have punched him. Not.

This has always been my registered name AGG, I just never posted (still don't) very much and just lurked for a long time reading all the stories and educating myself. Being divorced for almost 20 years and no dates, I didn't think I had much to contribute to a board like this. I just always pounced on your posts because you spoke such common sense and logic.

I stumbled on this board only a few years ago and I have learned more here about relationships and human psychology in general than any University course could have taught me. I know that I could have saved my marriage had I known about mb and all the concepts back then. I was totally clueless and did everything the wrong way when I found out my WXH was cheating. I was of the school not to make waves, play nice and don't expose in case it made him angry and drove him further to her. Well duh, that certainly worked as he left me and married (and still is) the OW.

So I just post when I see something that I can relate to and Lady M's initial post on this thread certainly spoke to me. I could have written it!

And as like is drawn to like, I mix with other single (mostly divorced), independent, attractive, fun, successful women with their own homes, great jobs, don't hang out in bars, all of whom have difficulty meeting a like minded man. We certainly don't sit around wringing our hands about "there's no good men left", but it would be nice.........

I love the gentleman thing and always make a point if a man holds the door, or generally acts in a chivalrous manner toward me, I make sure I say something like "why thank you, not too many gentlemen left in this world". They LOVE it! Don't know about punching your date Smiling Woman, but I'd certainly want to punch Fred's!!!! No wonder the guys get confused!

I don't frequent many forums or message boards at all, but this one has the most amazing people imaginable and I just love it. When I read the SAA sad stories, I get totally gobsmacked by the time and patience members who have BTDT take to help the newbies with trying to save their marriages.

"Gobsmacked." I like that.

I'm an Australian - we talk funny Fred!!!!

And good luck with The Leopard today Fred. Stupid waywards who don't know when they've got it good till it's way too late. She'll find out the hard way.

Maybe. She's had hard times all of her life. I think she may have a personality disorder that keeps her in the role of "professional victim."

She's left a wonderful home in a wonderful neighborhood with wonderful neighbors, her family, her children, her career and sacrificed her health to be with a married man, a father of three, whose wife won't grant him a divorce and who recently underwent prostate cancer surgery. This weekend, she will move her belongings into a small apartment (and storage for that which won't fit), while she pursues a menial job to obtain a cash flow, since her credit rating is non-existent, she owes money to the tax man, creditors and medical care providers, and in two months will either have to find the money to purchase her car from me or I take it back.

And she hasn't "found out," yet. Can you blame me for not wanting to wait to see the last of her back when she leaves this weekend?

ok fred now if we reversed genders on your WW and her OM that would be very VERY similar to my situation.

I am probably a little late to be commenting on this thread but i wanted to share my two cents for what is worth. I have experienced what these ladies have and i feel that your opinion Fred of liking independent women is found in the more mature crowd. I am not trying to offend any one but i am 28yrs old, own two properties, have a two year old i have custody of, many differnt volunteer activities, and work as a professional. When guys that i meet through work or out with other friends (not to date btw just in passing or as potential new friends) find out information about me either in converstation or my friends trying to set me and thinking this maybe attractive information for them... the men are shall we saw a little taken back and astonished at my accomplishments. Now i am not a flashy person when it comes to these so even typing this on here makes me feel weird. I am very modest about myself and just want to fit in with other people around my age, and i do with my friends who have known me for awhile.

I too have this fear that because of my independence will drive away any potential dates when i am ready. I see the response from guys who have just met me and aren't even there to date me. It's almost as if they are afraid that because i make more money and can do all of this on my own that i wouldn't want them around or something.

I don't understand this connection between preference for independent women and maturity. So all these guys that are turned off with your independence are automatically immature?

In my experience, the women who tend to be more independent tend not to be to commited to the relationship. They are less likely to stay and work on a issue or even consider the fact that maybe they could make a change to help get past the issue. As well, if they earn significantly more money, or have parents that do, there is a lifestyle adjustment to be made.

Now, I'd also turn away from a completely dependent person. I've dated someone before who would avoid all conflict and completely change herself to fit me better.

Honestly though if I were you, I wouldn't pay that much attention to these guys reactions. If you're interested in them, show it, and they'll respond. As you said, they probably think you could possibly be interested in them.

[quote=dkd]I don't understand this connection between preference for independent women and maturity. So all these guys that are turned off with your independence are automatically immature?

i was trying to be polite as in saying the older crowd.

In my experience, the women who tend to be more independent tend not to be to commited to the relationship. They are less likely to stay and work on a issue or even consider the fact that maybe they could make a change to help get past the issue. As well, if they earn significantly more money, or have parents that do, there is a lifestyle adjustment to be made.

Yes and no on agreeing with this. I believe it all depends on the person. From my expierence i grew up in a lower middle class to almost poor family. I worked very hard to get where i am. All of my friends are in the working class and make substantially less then i do and it is not an issue. I may have money now, but meeting me you wouldn't be able to tell unless you saw where i live or someone told you. I live a very meek lifestyle.


Honestly though if I were you, I wouldn't pay that much attention to these guys reactions. If you're interested in them, show it, and they'll respond. As you said, they probably think you could possibly be interested in them.

you could be right and i will when i am ready for that part of my life to go on. I hope i am wrong and there is someone out there that wouldn't be scared off.[/quote]

I will throw my hat in the ring to give you my perspective.

Male - 54
Canadian
Separated 1.5 years (in Canada it is just a formality to file the papers with the court to legally dissolve the marriage.)

Getting back in the dating pool - I look at the prospect of dating with a degree of nervousness. I am not slick or polished when it comes to dating. One of the things my STXW told me was she felt I was quite intelligent but she was not sure if she wanted intelligent. She was now looking for someone rugged, outdoorsy and simple. (Go figure - I always hoped intelligence was a good thing) I feel I am honest, sincere, hard working, and loyal. It was not my idea to separate. I feel like a fish out of water, and I am not even sure where a person would go to meet someone these days. So like you I am not sure how to proceed, or if I should proceed.

It seems to me after going through a divorce we carry baggage. We do not come away unscathed. We have been wounded. It takes time to recover. If I am honest, I can think of nothing that has affected my self confidence and self esteem like this has. I think there are many walking wounded. We function but are we subconsciously transmitting "stay away" when we think we are signaling we are available?

I feel the same way. Where does one go to meet unattached women. We are no longer in school or university where we often get the opportunity to meet a large number of unattached women and men. Typically everyone is theoretically available when we first start looking. But now...... is an internet dating site the only avenue? That has little appeal to me.

Right. It will not be the same ever again the way I feel now. The wounding leaves scars that may take a long time to heal, if ever. Somehow when we are reluctant I think we give off that vibe, that we are not all that enthusiastic, perhaps pensive, and that can be interpreted as not interested. Couple that with the bruised ego from rejection and everyone has the opportunity to be a wall flower. The antidote for this I believe is to take a chance and be willing to get hurt again. It seems the alternative is to grow old lonely.

I don't think celibate or abstinent for a long period is the issue if you are willing to alter the course to adapt to a new committed relationship. When I hear the word independent, I sometimes feel the word "angry or stubborn" could be substituted. I have had a conversation with a fellow who was looking in Asia for a relationship as he felt that so many of the women he met her seemed angry or upset.

I think the bottom line is we are all looking for a committed relationship where the other person cares about our well being and welfare. The hope would be the ability to fall in love again. I think a person who has been cheated on has to guard against being cynical about a potential new partner. And I do think we are all afraid to a degree, as time is moving on, and that means the opportunities to recover if we are not successful (choosing poorly) in the new relationship, means we may not get another chance to find love.

So for you ladies who are interested in taking a risk help us poor fellows out and wear a sign or help us to know you might be interested. Some of us have never been good at reading between the lines and daylight is burning. I hope my response helps provide a modicum of insight into the male mindset.

Good luck.

BCBoy

I hear you BCBoy but I'm mortified at the thought of being considered "angry and/or stubborn" when I describe myself as "independent".

Independence to me means being able to rely on myself completely without "needing" a man to complete or look after me. I think if you're in that situation, you can set yourself up to make some pretty poor relationship choices due to the neediness and having to have "someone/anyone" in your life to look after you.

I am soooooo not an angry or stubborn person - I have a very sunny and positive nature.

I also get you re the online dating thing. I'm totally out of my comfort zone doing it but when you don't cross paths with potential mates in your everyday life, it really isn't a bad alternative. I haven't been doing it long and even though I haven't met anyone as yet that I want a second date with, the guys I have met have been decent human beings just looking for the same thing that we all are. I'm fairly ambivalent about it though. As AGG says, it's a numbers game, which it is. If someone special comes along, great, but if not, well that's OK too.

Perception is the problem! Everyone perceives Independent as something different, not needing someone else to complete me is how I perceive Independent. Someone else said "angry/upset". Others see it different then that.

I guess we just need to be careful in how we put our independence out there.

Someone suggested that us ladies were signs saying "available". Perhaps we should design a button that says available or perhaps we could have T shirts made up with "I am available" on it. What about you guys showing that you are interested without using some cheesy come on line? Just a thought.

The online thing isn't so bad, just keep in mind that the journey is to be the fun!!!