I'm not sure what you mean here. It sounds like you are suggesting that I am less tolerant of people who have affairs because of tst's affair and that my post to L4 was just me being angry with her. I'm not sure...

But to clarify, I am MORE tolerant of affairs now. In my pre-a life, I would have suggested kicking every single wayward out the door no matter how repentant and committed there now were.





I'm not offended even if that is what you meant because I choose not to be. (just trying to be a bit funny)






Lur, I know that you worked very hard to create a safe marriage for you BH to invest back into. I am challenging L4 to do the same because, at this point, I don't think she has yet accomplished that "safe" marriage for him. I think she wants to, but hasn't made the full fledged commitment with actions to back it up to work all of MB on her side.

L4, I hope you are not feeling beat up. I do understand that you WANT to save your marriage.

I'm trying to point out why I think your efforts have availed you very little.

Just as not all BS's are blessed with a very repentant, committed, completely on-board, recovery-leading FWS like I was blessed with, neither are all FWS's blessed with a BS who is eager, hopeful, and fully committed to working a great recovery plan.

Many BS's deal with months of withdrawal before their spouse is even close to a place of CONSIDERING meeting ENs and avoiding LBs and having UA and POJAing.

What do those BS's do?

They Plan A and wait withdrawal out. They are abused by mean things their WS's say and do while they are drooling and missing and fantasizing about their AP.

This is exactly the response I received from tst and it is exactly why I was drawn back into the marriage and willing to open my heart back up to him.

I don't know Sere. If he hasn't filed for D, I would call him still in the M. (not being sarcastic) I guess I would also ask, how long is the vow L4 took when she got married?



I would expect the minimum from him for a long time. While waiting, I would suggest she continue her journey becoming the best person she can mentally, physically and spiritually.

I didn't mean to imply that anyone is less tolerant at all. I was just talking about the way my brain works now. And I thought the funny was funny. I am glad people here can sometimes disagree and have to clarify but still respect each other. It isn't that way on every internet forum, that's for sure!

The good thing about doing this is that whataver happens with the relationship, you win....

I hope you've had a good weekend L4.

SMB, I used the term abusive.


The abusive cycle that I see is this .... the L4's will have days, maybe even a week, almost 2 (correct me if I'm wrong L4 on the time frame) with calm, no blow ups, this will be followed by an episode of AO's which lend a hand to DJ's, ridicule, sarcasm and hurtful words. The way in which Mr. L4 lovebusts with AO's and DJ's is documented throughout this thread.

This is from the first paragraph in the article on this site about AO's.(I bolded where he refers to the word abusive)


Dr. Harley is clear about his concerns of AO's being a danger in M, whether it be physical, or emotional, it is a danger to destroying romantic love and marital breakdown.
Like IB says 'I don't care about you' (this from Mark and makes perfect sense), AO's go on to say 'and I don't even like/love you'.

If I remember correctly, L4 has said that H's AO's and DJ's pre-date her marital A.
I think that this is one area that L4 struggles with, how to handle these types of lovebusters from H, without busting back, whether it be intentional or not.

Amen!

When we stop participating in the "Love Busting Fests" the dynamics will begin to change.

We MUST work our side of the marriage, after all, that's all we can control.


Side note; I had a great friend that used to always say, "AO's are like trying to drive a car using nothing but the horn". Always made me laugh...... But ahh, such simple visual logic.

Me too.
My thought was that in hearing of Mr.L4's FOO issues, and from others who had BTDT, that would help to guide L4 the best possible way, so as not to do more damage to Mr.L4.

While I don't believe this was L4's intention in disclosing her H's FOO, and I don't ever recall her using her FOO as reason for her A, I understand what you are saying
here and I would have never thought of that sort of mindset.

To assume our spouses (or Mr. L4 in this case) motives is a lovebuster. I get it now. Thanks.

Gosh L4, this made me sad to read, I often feel like this stuff will take forever to learn, the more I learn, the more I think I don't know.
We will learn together, and we will grow together.
I honestly can't think of better people to learn from than those who have been posting here on MB.

okay this is embarrassing ..... just got the horn thing ..... duh V!

I think I have a decent view of that picture but the problem is Mr. L4 is his own man and what may work for others may not work for him. Your situation isn't so very different from others L4 but no matter what advice is given, Mr. L4 may not respond the way you hope. As a BW, I am sometimes torn on what to advise you because I'm sensitive to Mr. L4 as a BS but I see the "difficult" side of Mr. L4. DJ and/or projecting? Maybe...but I can be "difficult" myself.

The holidays can be a hard time for a BS....almost like rubbing salt in the wound. This may be why one minute H is talking D and then the next he wants to buy a house.. In 08, Dday was recent to Mr. L4 and he was likely still reeling from your confession. In 09, reality has set in and he is going through the first holiday just after the 1 yr mark....which is a typical time for a new wave of anger to strike. Turkey Day - New Years should be a fun time, but I do think Mr. L4 may be struggling with wanting to enjoy the holidays and getting back to some sort of normal and controlling his anger that wants to scream how you didn't give a flip about him or the children during your A so he doesn't give a flip now. The first Christmas after Dday I had a hard time accepting anything from H and the nicer he was the more pissed off I got. I'd get short, he'd get short...the LBing would ensue....well Merry Christmas! **sigh**

L4,

I hope you're at least reading as this plays out, otherwise it's gonna take you till Thursday to get caught up...

Mark

L4...do you think it would be helpful if you were given specific phrases to use in specific conversations with your H?

For example, what exactly should you say/do if your H says..."I'll never trust you again"..."I have no respect for you"..."Our marriage is about the kids and nothing more" type of stuff.

Or if he calls you names...what exactly should you say/do.

Or if you need to POJA something but your H wants it his way no questions asked. I know others have said POJA can work even if only one person is applying it but how do you do that? Especially if the other person only wants it his way without any compromise?

If your H has an AO or DJ, what specifically should you say/do that would be productive and in line with Plan A?

Do you think if some of the vets could give you specific words/actions to say/do during certain moments with your H, it would be helpful for you? I'm just thinking that if you have a plan prepared then you will act in a constructive way instead of re-act due to emotion which tends to be destructive.

What cha think?

Just something to consider about POJA...

POJA is introduced in the book Fall In Love Stay In Love and in the basic concepts and in the rest of Dr Harley's material under the heading of learning to negotiate.

The point of POJA is to negotiate fairly.

Please note that I did not say the purpose was to gain what we want.

POJA is not a tool to leverage a negotiation or to gain what we want from our spouse. It has two purposes as it relates to ourselves. 1) It prevents us from making Love Bank withdrawals by keeping us from engaging in Independent Behavior. 2) It is supposed to protect us from ourselves gibing away the farm when we are in intimacy. The second applies when we are operating with a full Love Bank. The first applies the rest of the time. But even when in intimacy this is a wrong application since we will enthusiastically agree to pretty much anything when we have a full Love Bank.

The reason this can work without his participation is simply because of the way it is stated. Look at what POJA says:
It applies to what YOU will do and not what HE/SHE will do. It isn't supposed to ensure that we get what we want only that we not get what we want at our spouse's expense. It isn't a method of controlling our spouse but a way to control our own selfishness.

And I already know the question...

Q: So how do I get what I want?
A: NOT by manipulating my spouse nor by Independent Behavior that withdraws from my spouse's Love Bank by gaining at his/her expense.

THAT is what POJA is supposed to stop...

So the affirmative answer to the question is then...

A: By using respectful negotiations.

Under POJA:

I want A and you want B. POJA requires that we find C not that either of us convinces the other of our POV.

If I want A and only A will make me happy, then I can't be using POJA. Likewise, if only B will satisfy you then POJA cannot be applied. But from MY POV, if I want A and you do not want A, I might be able to show you how we can find C that you are willing to allow enthusiastically.

It doesn't help me when you are trying to convince me of what you want, but I can demonstrate the idea enough to show that it is valid and try to bring it up at that point.

Additionally, if I am not engaging in IB and depleting your LB$, I stand a better chance of you actually being open to negotiations when I want something as opposed to just doing what I want and thereby gaining at your expense which is ALWAYS a Love Buster.

We don't fail to negotiate fairly because our spouse isn't fair in negotiations. We fail to negotiate fairly because it doesn't always get us what we want. We resort to doing whatever we want so that we can do whatever we want, not because our spouse won't agree with us.

POJA keeps US in check not our spouse.

POJA then comes into play if we actually reach Intimacy since then we will want to make our spouse happy even if it makes us unhappy. Then we use POJA to keep us safe from our own stupid reaction to being in love with our spouse.

But if we can both be in Intimacy at the same time, then we will both want to be making each other happy and our biggest problem will revert back to taking at our spouse's expense.

As for finding the right way to say something to get the point across without love busting...That is the 64000 dollar question right there.

I can see the way it works now. Mr L4 says something that stings. L4 tries to tell him that what he said hurt. He pushes the next button and shows that he understands that it hurt her but that was his intent. She tries again, a different tack and he again escalates. Soon, he is shouting and pushing her buttons and so she shouts back...

Now BOTH are love busting and both Love Banks are taking hits and neither one is happy and finally the disengagement takes place.

So now we have a conversation about how to get MR L4 on board with not Love Busting all the time and how to get him to heal if he doesn't want to and what a boundary is and is not...

So when Mr L4 says something that stings...

How about saying, "Ouch!" and disengaging THEN.

Stops the hurt though doesn't prevent the initial hit. It does however prevent further withdrawals from either Love Bank.

Suppose he follows into the other room and keeps ranting...

Figure out how to withdraw from that situation before it happens. (Like work on that NOW and not in the heat of battle.)

Suppose he won't stop...

Well, if you aren't there for him to show his anger to, at least his anger isn't hurting you.

He got to vent, you took minimal hits on your Love Bank and YOU didn't deplete his Love Bank by retaliating.

The goal becomes limiting damage rather than causing equal damage. Mutually assured destruction might be a way to prevent nuclear war when both sides can destroy the whole planet alone, but it doesn't do much for preventing an argument. But remember that it was a threat of destruction that kept things in check. Neither side really wanted to end the world...

Mark

Mark, any chance you and your wife would come to Seattle for a MB weekend or workshop?

You have such an amazing understanding.

How about attending a MB weekend and getting it right from Dr Harley himself?

And just so you know, it's easier to explain than it is to do...

Maybe better said, "Them that can DO. Them that can't..."

Well, we teach is what we do...

That sounds great Mark...regarding POJA...but how can you negotiate with a person who doesn't care about option C and will not budge from option B...his option? What does the spouse trying to POJA do then? Put it on hold? And what to do when a decision does have to be made and the option B spouse still will not budge?

As for the AO, DJ, and LB...I like the idea of saying "ouch" and disengaging but how does one disengage? Just walk away? Or should she explain why she is walking away first?