It is two years too early for you to be starting to meet other men. And it is 2.5 years too early for you to meet other men's children.

But of course we cannot tell you what the right thing is to do. No one can tell anyone else anything.

Well, I fear I disagree with you on this. I'm going to be 45 this year. If I were 25 I might think I should wait a year or two. I don't want to spend my life alone.

SW, I didn't read the whole thing, just the first page. I encourage you to notify the mods and move your thread to the SAA board, where the folks have walked in your shoes.



ML posted for another poster the last day or so, exactly what Dr. Harley says about the need to be honest with the kids about this stuff. If I run across it, I'll post a link, unless you already saw it.

I love the idea on staying true to your word with the exposure. But agian, I ask you to consider asking the mods to move your thread to SAA to get the advice from the vets there.

SW, I haven't read all the posts here, but Dr Harley does recommend complete honesty with your children about his affair partner. It sounds like you have done a good job of that. To remain silent, or to act like everything is "OK" is about the WORST THING you can do because it gives kids a warped sense of reality and teaches them that wrong is right.

Harley on kids and OPs:


1. Do I let them talk to me about what they do with OW and my WH?

Yes. Knowledge is power, and you want to know as much as possible about what's going on. Besides, you want to be able to answer their questions about why their father is with the other woman.

2. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)

Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).

3. How do you protect what love you have left when you are being ripped apart every time your kids tell you this info?

If the affair does not die a natural death soon, you're far better off letting go of your love for your husband. Emerse yourself in the reality of his betrayal and your love for him won't last long.

The only reason that I encourage a betrayed spouse to stick it out for 2 years after an affair is that 95% of them die a natural death by that time, and when that happens the fog lifts and the unfaithful spouse sees the light of day. But there's the 5% that don't, and end up marrying the lover. Only 30% of those marriages survive, but by that time so much damage has been done that reconciliation is unrealistic.

4. How do I make my home a safe place for the kids to tell me things without having to hear about WS playing house with my kids and my H?

Encourage them to tell you the truth, but as your love for your husband decreases in intensity, what they tell you will bother you less.

5. Do you still advise just waiting the 2 years of Plan B when the affair-partners have not been dealing with any reality intruding into the A all this time...meaning, isn't it more likely to end when they have to deal with kids, and bills, and living together, rather than sneaking little moments here and there??

A two year affair that's been brought out into the open is like cancer that is spreading throughout the body. While some people survive even that form of cancer, the prognosis is very bad. You're in a situation where it may be time to let go.

But remember to expose your husband's affair to the light of day. Don't hide it from anyone, including your children. Transparency is like chemotherapy. Hopefully, there is someone who is talking to your husband about the tragic decisions he's making, and can influence him to change course.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

huh? I beg your pardon? How is Marriage Builders not the "real world?" Do you mean the "world" where people pretend that wrong is right? That is not the real world, Cat. In the REAL world, we don't pretend that wrong is right or that affair partners are just another "lifestyle" choice. That is the world of warped realities and dysfunction.


You must be kidding? A child with a normal sense of right and wrong WILL FEEL disgust for a woman who had an affair with his father, contributing to the ruination of his family. What will WARP this child is asking him to pretend that this is right and that this is some nice woman. What will warp a kid is committing adultery. What will warp a kid is the ruination of his family.

But feeling DISGUST at disgusting things will NOT "warp" him. What she and his father have done is despicable and this should not be whitewashed to a little kid. If he doesn't feel digust at all this, then he is WARPED.

You know, cat, little kids have instincts about right and wrong and when those instincts are not validated, they grow up profoundly morally confused. Take is from someone whose parents exposed her to all manner of immorality and then pretended it was RIGHT. All that did cause moral confusion and teach me to doubt my instincts about right and wrong. It WARPED my mind.

SW, your instincts are absolutely CORRECT. Just because a large segment of our popular culture follows sick, dysfunctional practices that teach little kids that wrong is right, does not mean you must do the same thing. Your son should know everything about his fathers affair with this woman and he should be disgusted by it. If your son is NOT disgusted by immorality, then there really is something wrong. It is bad enough that the boy has to be introduced to this situation, but the best you can do is completely honest about the MORAL ramifications. I can think of nothing more confusing than to teach kids that wrong is right, you are the only defense he has, Smiling Woman.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{SMILINGWOMAN}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I'm with Mel here. There is an almost certainty that your son will never accept the home wrecker who replaced his mother. That is the reality.

I am glad this came up SW, but sorry you are going through it. THis is the subject that has me torn up right now. My WH has announced that OW3 will be part of our childrens life because she is his future This OW doesnt bother me as much because we were already separated, although I do have concerns on the fact that she moved WH in after a week of knowing each other and she has a child of her own.

I hope it all works out. Good thing is, most likely the relationship wont last anyway.

I haven't read it all either, but I'd like to elaborate on some of Mel's great advise. I'm at a similar stage myself though my son is much older.

Allow him to talk but don't probe. It's very easy for your DS to feel he's stuck in the middle. This is harder to do than you think but it's important.

I think it's acceptable to let him know how you feel about OW, though name-calling, even "homewrecker" (accurate though it may be), is probably something you don't want your DS to think is ever appropriate.

I would even suggest that the WS eventually is permanently damaged by their own fog. You want the man you married, not the alien his is today. At some point, you may have to grieve that man as if he died.

Unfortunately, nothing but time will reduce this pain.

Only you can decide if you've waited long enough. There need not be any formal "end" to plan B. Regardless of whether you still want marrital recovery or not, it is still healthier for you if WH is out of your life as much as possible.

Tabby, in the quotes I posted above, the BS did want her husband back. That may not apply to SW at all, so she should just disregard that part.

Melody, I do not want him back. Ever. Divorce is final. And I honestly do not care that he is with her again/still.

Ok, so in what I told him yesterday after people over in marriage 101 got hold of me.....I hope I didn't mess it up too bad. I still don't think I whitewashed it, but I did let him 'off the hook', by listening to him and learning that he thought he COULDN'T be around OW. I did call her a homewrecker, but I didn't say it with venom...I just told him it meant that she had helped to wreck our home and her own home too. That 4 children's lives were forever changed because of what they did.

Next question: Should I discuss this issue with Wxh? Or just deal with it with my son?

SW, the part about getting your H was not relevant to your situation. Did you read the other advice in the quotes by Dr Harley about being radically honest with your son??

I believe your son has every right to know everything about his father's affair partner.

My kids are a lot older but they knew what happened, i did not "bash" their father but they were old enough to make their own decisions about the OW.

My son who played baseball and it happened to be during basebal practice time said straight away that he never wanted the OW to be at one of his games and if dad brought her he would ask them both to leave. His dad of course said that was my fault, but kids are smarter than you know.

I remember when my oldest daughter said she hated her dad for what he did and i asked her why, i said that he betrayed me not them and her words will stay with me for a long time.... she said he knew the consequences of his actions would affect all of us and he chose to take them anyway so he betrayed them as well.

Don't bother with WXH, just your son. It's not the worst thing in the world to call OW a homewrecker in his presence. You are human and you will make worse mistakes than this! If you are concerned about it, appologize to your son for calling OW names. Just say you are sorry, it's ok not to like someone but it's no excuse for name calling and leave it at that.

Yes, Mel. I think I HAVE been radically honest. I was last summer when this all broke---it enraged Wxh that I didn't just tell ds9 that we 'fought too much'.

Things have changed now since the divorce is final and Wxh can have ds around the OW if he chooses. Ds is very curious about her and I think WANTS to meet her...not sure that he is going to like her or not. I guess I've said enough to him between our conversation Sunday afternoon and yesterday.

I would like to tell him that his dad and the OW are trying to make their 'relationship' 'right', but that it is a relationship that started on lies and cheating and adultery and that 2 homes were destroyed and that it will never be right.

That is the right thing to tell him, SW. He needs to know the full truth and needs your moral guidance in addition. He needs to be taught to judge right from wrong, otherwise his wayward father will teach him to judge that wrong is right.

Ok, just talked to him some more about it. He said he doesn't want to hate OW. I asked him why not. He said because he didn't want to make his dad mad. I told him he didn't have to hate her, but he needed to remember that what they have done is horrible and it will never be right. I told him his dad and OW are wanting him (ds) to meet her and like her so they can feel better about what they've done to two families. And that no matter what they do, it will always be a relationship that started horrible and hurt many people. Based upon lies and adultery.

p.s. I think you are doing a great job, btw. I was in your son's shoes when I was a little girl, and my mother and father screwed my mind up with their "non-judgementalism" [selective "non-judgementalism" that applied only to others, not them - you should have heard them judging Christians]

It is cute and trendy to be "non-judgemental" when you are making up bumper stickers, but it is gross dereliction of duty when applied to raising children.

SW, Mel and everyone...there are a few issues here (from my perspective) and the fact that this thread was started on 101 and then moved to SAA.....well, not sure if ML knew when she first posted that SW was divorced? Or maybe she did know and her advice would have been the same.

What I was trying to say earlier is that IMO, while there is an active affair going on (i.e., the two partners are still legally *married*..even if they are separated), well of course the kids need to know EXACTLY in an age appropriate manner, what is going on. And I'm totally on board with the kids not EVER being exposed to the affair partner.

Infidelity is always wrong and immoral. That message should never change. And SW, I think you are right on for continuing to pass that message along to your son so that he grows up to value marriage for what it is and not think he can run around on his future wife. It's wrong and will never be right.

If the couple divorces though, once again IMO, the rules change somewhat...though maybe on a subtle basis.

Again, the message of infidelity being wrong...is totally appropriate. As is (in SW's case) passing along the FACTS that this is the woman who his Dad had an affair with, hence the reason for the divorce. Note: The AFFAIR and his father's behavior is the reason for the divorce..not 'homewrecker' OW. Of course she had a role in it but from a child's perspective, I still think the message needs to be simple. Daddy had a girlfriend. Married people don't date. Mommy and Daddy got divorced because he wanted to have a girlfriend.

Anything you are feeling about this woman, SW is totally appropriate. I would never tell you that your feelings are wrong. I was just trying to caution you about your actions in front of your son. I think you should not be afraid to tell him that you feel sad, disgusted, angry...whatever...about this situation. But you really can NOT tell him how HE MUST FEEL. That's for him to figure out. Of course he's young, and much of his feeling and his moral fiber will come from what you have instilled in him. But you've already done the bulk of that work.

He is conflicted and that's to be expected. He wants to have a relationship with his father. It's not his fault that his father made stupid choices. It's not his fault that his parents divorced. He shouldn't be made to feel guilty about visting his father, even if the OW is there.

JMO.

That is very good that you are letting him know that it will always be wrong, SW! Good for you! So many times we see people adopt the attitude of "I am who I am today, because of my past"...implying that they are good NOW, and part of that good is because of the BAD of the past...That type thinking drives me MAD!

I happen to be a good person today because I repented and am making good choices, but that does NOT mean that my affair will ever be good...No, that will remain wrong and a blemish on my history always! Mr. W and I were discussing that just this morning...An analogy that we came up with was what if for instance Osama Bin Laden were to repent today? Would that make September 11th okay? OF COURSE NOT! What happened that day will remain PURE EVIL always!

I am glad to see you being a good moral guide for your son, SW!

Mrs. W

P.S. Regardless of the divorce, what began as adultery continues as adultery...In fact, if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty, ANY relationship that SW's husband has from now on out will be adultery - until SW dies actually...He had no biblical grounds for this divorce...