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"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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You make me think.
I think.
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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OK. I was wrong. Happy to say so.
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LG, I am happy to see you will not waste any more of your precious time. Thanks Aphelion. I very much appreciate your entire post.
3-DDays, 4-OMs*, Plan-D May 9, 2009, final Dec 2010 (FREEDOM!)
Custody of DDs / new job(s) / "I'm alive...and well"
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Yeah, that was pretty impressive, Aph, surgical.
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How does it not make sense? I stated that I may have used the wrong word as in motto since YOU took such offense to it.
One of the Harley Founder of the principles or the son said that since his study of adultery he would divorce if his wife choose to have an affair.
Not sure what your beef with me is but your post to me was kind on the rude side.
I want to say is that what I thought Lawful was saying.
Last edited by swan's song; 01/13/10 10:33 AM. Reason: because I can.
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Well, swan, it makes perfect sense to me. Not sure what she was confused about. Pretty straightforward, simple concept.
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I would instantly plan B with D right on it's heels if my H had any A in the future.
WHY?
Because we KNOW what to do to avoid an A, therefore, it would be a deliberate & intentional & planned slap to our M if either of us had an A. Really? They were totally ignorant of, and lacking in, morals and ethics? From birth? Come on, they always knew what to do to avoid adultery. WS don't suddenly appear out from some hidden dimension. They grew up in society. They see. They think. They know. And they do it anyway. This guy is deep. Now tell us what you really think??!! hehe Ok, I agree in a perfect world(unlimited finances/no kids/no extended family/Unlimited life expectancy, etc) that PLAN D should be done IMMEDIATELY upon discovery by a BS. The marriage for all intense and purpose is OVER! The covenant has been broken. Go plan D, end the marriage, completely separate yourself from the (f)WS emotionally/financially, then and only then, after the WS has taken ALL THE CONSEQUENCES for their actions AND THE BS has healed(it much easier to heal AWAY from the abuser(triggers, etc), then maybe you start trying to rebuild after A) the WS feels the consequences and corrects those moral/ethical issues and B) the BS heals and corrects their shortcomings in the original marriage. This perfect world assumes the WS has ended the A AND in a sense Plan B's the BS while the correct their moral compass and give the BS time to heal. I did a hybrid of this and I do feel healed AND don't seem to have some of the common characteristics of the typical BS.(insecurity, sadness, resentment, etc) "I should have divorced you for hurting me like that!" DUDE
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A POJA is the details that backup the VOWS. It sucks you have to explicitly state things that are ASSUMED as obvious in your wedding vows. Go read a POJA and tell me everything in it is not common sense assumed when you take wedding vows. DUDE Really, Dude? You never did anything in your marriage without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse? No independent behavior whatsoever? Hmmmmmm....  Mrs. W I'm sorry, you are correct, there are more STRINGENT requirements in the POJA than common sense/vows would allow. Its absurd that married couples can't go to happy hour or something w/out the other for FEAR they may lose their mind and sleep w/ someone other than their spouse. So yeah, while I was married, I did have independent behaviors and still kept from being a skank. DUDE
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I thought LG�s M was doomed from way back. How many D-Days are we willing to force LG to suffer through anyway, just to preserve an MB dogma?
I might present ideas/suggestions/plans/questions to influence the criteria someone uses to make their decision. Ultimately, it is their decision, nothing comes close to "force".
I will explain "MB dogma" if the person expresses a desire to work MB stuff to try and save their marriage. Even when, in my opinion, the marriage has very little left to "save" and, in my opinion, the WS is not very likely to change.
Why?
Because working the "MB dogma" has the potential to challenge the BS to change/grow into a stronger, more confident individual.
The BS must come to their own decision about when they have done everything in their power to have a decent, loving marriage.
The BS who can look back with confidence knowing they tried their best, usually has a better chance for happiness and success in any future relationships.
The BS who walks away from his/her WS without an effort toward any concrete plans to save their M, often feels regrets. Often does not take his/her own inventory of what they brought/took away from their marriage. Especially the BS who "moves on" by having a quickie relationship almost immediately.
It reminds me of the decisions cancer patients are asked to make.
"These are your chances/odds.
These are your treatment options.
These are the chances those options will work IN YOUR CASE."
Etc,etc,etc.
I have never seen a cancer patient told:
"Hopeless. Efforts to live longer are ridiculous. You'd be a fool to even try to live longer."
They might hear:
"We have run out of options. We've tried every tool we have."
No one forces cancer patients to take treatment options when facing an almost certain death.
Options are offered.
All things are weighed.
The individual makes their decision.
My Mother did one round of chemo for her second bout of liver cancer, then said:
"No more. Now, I'm done."
That's what the BS does.
Take or leave "MB dogma" - they decide when they are "done".
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LG --
What principal did Steve Harley contradict?
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I'm sorry, you are correct, there are more STRINGENT requirements in the POJA than common sense/vows would allow. Its absurd that married couples can't go to happy hour or something w/out the other for FEAR they may lose their mind and sleep w/ someone other than their spouse. So yeah, while I was married, I did have independent behaviors and still kept from being a skank. DUDE It is NOT absurd and exactly the kind of thinking that leads to an affair IMHO.......
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I did have independent behaviors and still kept from being a skank. DUDE only temporarily....You jumped right in it didn't ya DUDE?
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I'm sorry, you are correct, there are more STRINGENT requirements in the POJA than common sense/vows would allow. Its absurd that married couples can't go to happy hour or something w/out the other for FEAR they may lose their mind and sleep w/ someone other than their spouse. So yeah, while I was married, I did have independent behaviors and still kept from being a skank. DUDE It is NOT absurd and exactly the kind of thinking that leads to an affair IMHO....... Stong, Effective, MORALS/ETHICS and BOUNDARIES would eliminate the need for these SHACKLES...DUDE
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I did have independent behaviors and still kept from being a skank. DUDE only temporarily....You jumped right in it didn't ya DUDE? Yeah, but mine was for punishment, not because I lost my mind/ethics/morals. I KNEW what I was doing was evil. SUPPOSEDLY, the Wayward loses their mind and doesn't know the skankiness they doing..DUDE
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The mind does funny things Dude.
For example: Denial. It tries to protect you from knowledge that will hurt you.
Do you find it so hard to believe that a wayward mind tries to soften the harm with justifications?
Your statement is a justification.
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Pep,
I pretty much agree with everything you posted. Indeed, everything. Although a cancer treatment analog is not 100% apropos, IMO.
So, to summarize my understanding of your post I am reduced to quoting myself yet again: �Actually, MB is also for learning when the BS should cut their losses. �
A couple three comments, however:
�I might present ideas/suggestions/plans/questions to influence the criteria someone uses to make their decision. Ultimately, it is their decision; nothing comes close to "force".�
I agree you personally do not force anyone into anything. But, this thread starts with LG explicitly feeling SH tried to force him to change that very decision he had already carefully made. And then a gaggle of posters piled on and backed this feeling of his into a corner.
�The BS must come to their own decision about when they have done everything in their power to have a decent, loving marriage.�
MB, IMO, rarely allows BS sufficient time for this decision. Everything is hurry up and get through Plan A so BS can Plan B. But whatever you do, don�t even think about D. During Plan B is when most BS actually decide to D, you know. A BS sitting alone at home or taking care of the children all by themselves all the while knowing every second of every day WS is screwing OP�s head off every chance they get is not going to come to a Save My M No Matter What WS Has Done decision. Unless they are an idiot, that is. Contrary to popular perception, absence does not make the heart grow fonder. It makes one forget. When it comes to egregious adultery it is a very good thing for the BS to forget the WS. And the sooner the better.
�Take or leave "MB dogma" - they decide when they are "done".�
FWIW, this decision took me over four years to get to. And I have taken a fair amount of heat for my so-called lackadaisical approach from several MB acolytes. In my defense, discovering my 20 year M was a lie from almost the beginning took a good long while to sink in. And it took me a good long while to figure out what to do about it. MB did not help me. (Well, as I have posted before, MB methods worked like a charm in breaking up the adultery. Even their 10 year long very entangled VLTA. But MB methods for recovery simply caused me prolonged and excruciating pain. Pain to the point I no longer love her, and I never will again.)
So, I have a related MB dogma question for you. Trying to decide how to ask it. I may be back, if I can figure it out.
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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Stong, Effective, MORALS/ETHICS and BOUNDARIES would eliminate the need for these SHACKLES...DUDE If you lived it, you would not for a minute see POJA/the entire MB program as "shackles"...Living interdependently with your spouse is a wonderful thing...I wouldn't trade it for the world... Btw, Mr. W doesn't have those feelings of resentment/bitterness that you so often attach to people here...And he didn't Plan D or have a revenge affair...You are wrong if you think that ALL BSs feel that way...I realize this is what you do to soften the blow to yourself - thinking you had no other options - sorry, but you did... Stop trying to make yourself feel superior because your adultery was retaliatory, Dude...Your justifications/rationalizations are no different than the ones the original WS had - they all stink - they are all wrong...Your excuses are just that, EXCUSES...adultery is adultery... Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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There are only honest FORMER wayward spouses. I do not believe this. OK, there may have been one somewhere, at one time. A newly ethical adulterer someone�s brother�s friend�s cousin once heard about. Somewhere. But I am skeptical of this in the extreme. If I am aware of it, I have no more to do with former adulterers than I have to do with adulterers. They are the same to me. They are all triggers.
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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Good marriage counselors work to save marriages. They do not put the WS's feelings first and let them justify their affair(s).
Some marriages can be saved after an affair some can not. This is not right or wrong it just is what it is.
Sometimes it's the WS that fights to save the marriage.
Sometimes it's the BS that fights to save the marriage.
Anyone that wants to save their marriage deserves the chance to do so.
The Harley's are good marriage counselors. They are individuals.
Harley that started MB has stated that he does not think he can recover infidelity in his own marriage if it was to happen.
He also said however not haing to face infidelity on that level he does not guarantee what would happen to his marriage.
Many a poster here had said to their spous that if they were ever cheated on the marriage was over.
Do you what happened to these BS?
They found their way to MB trying to do what they said they never would do. Save their marriage and take back their WS.
No one forces a WS or a BS to save marriage.
Can help be offered?
Yes and should be offered.
For what ever is offered can always refused.
In the end all avenues should be looked at before any important decision is made. Then make the decision you want.
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