If you told her beforehand that you would do it...go ahead and do it.

Mel, there is more to this story, as has been alleged. I imagine it was lost in the Great Dump. Bottom line, SW homeschools her son, spends pretty much 23 hours of every day with her son, he is a 30 year old in a 9 year old body, and since she got here, her son has championed her cause against his father - because of his VERY strong bond with his mother. I'm not dissing SW; it's just their relationship. Even when Dad was home, ds felt he had to protect his mom from his dad. ds almost ALWAYS chose to be with mom and not with dad. Mom was very unhappy with how dad treated her, and ds knew it; he even tried to talk to his dad about it, to protect his mom; that is how enmeshed SW and her son are.

Now that she found his infidelity and divorced him immediately, it has moved even further downhill - everything, I mean. And, at the end, ds desperately wants a dad, which he never had for many reasons (and not all of them XH's fault). He is desperate for a connection to his dad, as all sons are. Yet, SW harbors VERY deep resentment over her situation; and given her very strong connection to her son, ds is finding it VERY hard to 'betray' his mom by finding any joy in being with his dad.

Basically, he is torn. When his dad doesn't pick up ds for visitation, SW has driven by XH's house - with her son in the car - to see if XH is there. And points out that he is.

Those of us who advised her to step back, are doing so because of this dynamic - her son's fear of displeasing his mom by being ok with his father's choices. She has admitted she's sad and fearful that ds will 'like' being around OW and her son. Understandable. But imagine the position she is putting a 9 year old in by letting him know this.

In this case, though, there was MORE than THIS woman. SW's XH even had an affair with her own cousin! He had a long list of issues. But SW has - understandably - been upset that XH is continuing to see this woman. Got it. But her son NEEDS to bond with his dad. ds knows all about dad's issues; in fact, he asks about it all the time, from what SW says. But what ds needs, at this point, is to know that his mom won't...'be disappointed' in her son for wanting to be happy around dad and dad's GF (OW or not). SW's son is so finely tuned into his mom's feelings, because they have been so incredibly close all these years, that he is willing to forego his own to make her happy.

Is it a perfect situation? Of course not. Does he know about OW? Yes. Should he have to be an adult and tell his dad he won't see him unless he ditches OW? NO. That is not what a ds9 should have to do. He's stuck with the dad he's stuck with. It's not a perfect world. Men cheat, divorce, and marry OW. Their sons still need a relationship with their dad, no matter what the dad did. And sons shouldn't have to feel like they are betraying their mothers by wanting to be with their dads. The mothers should be the adult and not let that be an issue. This is what we have been trying to explain to SW. She's already made it very clear who the OW is. Now just let the son be a son.

Me and my son have a very close relationship as well and he is close with his dad too, however he chose me and my actions over his dad's actions and he was plenty old enough to not have to be told anything about the OW he made the decisions himself. He also "protects" me against his dad when we get into an argument, so what there is nothing wrong with that and IMHO is a fine thing i think a lot of sons do that.

And if his dad chose to do something besides spend his visitation time with his son, i think his son SHOULD know that his dad is LYING about not being able to be with his son. The dad is the adult here and should be spending time with his son no matter what. I mean what kind of father is he being if he can't spend every other weekend (or whatever his visitation is) without his OW to spend time with his son. I think is is more her eWH than SW, he is the one who should be making the effort.

I think as long as SW (and it sounds like she did) lets her son know that she will not be upset with his decision then she has done nothing wrong and her son has every right to ALWAYS look at this woman as a homewrecker because she is, the same way his dad is.....

Kids need to know the truth and make up their own minds.

SW,

I was once in your shoes and like you I got beat up pretty bad in the forums, but the fact was that the posters were correct, just not all that sensitive on how they were delivering the message.

You are in a lot of pain. I know you say you're happy to have him out of your life and that you left him, but the truth is you're hurting very much. The fact that you care at all what is happening in his life and what your son is exposed to shows how much farther you have to go.

You see, my ex left me on short notice and we were divorced very quickly. It took me a while to realize I no longer had any say in what she did in her life or who she did it with. I was petrified that my kids would be exposed to other men and I would argue with her about this for a long time.

I was threatened by the presence of another man in their lives and was worried that my kids would start calling him dad. I remember ranting about this to my DD one night when giving her a bath and seeing the confused look on her face.

I feel bad about it now, years later. The kids know who their dad is and no one will ever replace me. They slip up sometimes and call me her bf's name, but that's ok. I know they don't mean anything by it. I use to get angry and blow up at them. I brush it off now.

You're human and are going to make mistakes in this environment and with your son. But one thing I learned through thearapy and reading is that a child will want to parent their parent and protect the parent.

They're caught in the middle of this. I really don't know what happens at my ex's house anymore and the truth is that I don't care. I have finally gotten to the point in my life where my ex's life and activities are as meaningless to me as my neighbors. So long as my kids aren't being harmed, I don't care.

That's the attitude you need to adopt. Your sone is a few short years from being in his teens. I'm sure much of his anger will come then.

For now, keep him out of grown up issues. What goes on at dad's house is what happens at dad's house and it stays at dad's house UNLESS he's being harmed.

He's been harmed by the divorce, yes. But now is a time for healing and the sooner you get to where you feel indifference about what your ex does or who he brings over, the better.

It takes time and it took therapy for me. But I had an IC who was awesome and pulled out the 2x4 regularly on me when I was making mistakes like the ones you're making.

It's human and I can empathize. Believe me, no one understands your feelings or reactions more.

Right now I'm in a situation where I'm trying to teach my kids about their faith. All I can do is lead by example. Their mother has no faith of her own and doesn't have the same standards.

I have a girlfriend. I have emphasized that I will not live with a girlfriend until I get married and she's my wife. I have never had her spend the night with me with the kids in the house and the one time she stayed over she slept in the basement and I slept in my room.

It's leadership by example. The contrast they have is a my ex who is living as if she was married with her bf.

I'm putting value into vows, marriage, and faith. I'm not perfect, but I'm trying to show my kids how they should behave instead of criticizing the way their mother behaves. When they ask about the contrasts, I simply tell them that my ex doesn't believe in God and has different rules she follows.

They can make up their own minds as they get older as to what is better. All I can do is try to be an example.

Once i'm married, I also hope to show them how a husband and wife are supposed to treat each other.

Again, I understand how you feel and you have a long way to go in your healing.

I totally agree with Mel. Kids need to understand when an evil person is in their life and deal accordingly. This OW is NOT OK and neither is this relationship.
Cat, sure, the son needs a relationship with his father, but he also needs to know that his father is deeply flawed, has a serious character flaw, and that SW will NEVER be OK with the OW skank.
Does he have to hate her? No.
Does he need to be respectful in her presence? Yes.
Does he need to remain quiet about his disappointment in thier relationship? No. He can say, "Dad, I will come to your house because you are my father and I want a relationship with you. I will never trust the OW, and even if she is nice to me, and I am polite back, please know that I know in my heart that your relationship is wrong."
You said he's a 30-year-old in the body of a 9-year-old, so I think he can handle that boundary.

ITA with ima!!!

There is nothing that she can say or do to facilitate this relationship that has been destroyed by his father. The notion that he can have a nice father/son relationship with selfish, corrupt man is unrealistic. Her son very much needs to know her feelings, which are very valid. The very thought of her son making friends with the SKANKHO who helped destroy his family is galling. And when he grows up, he will realize how sickening that is.

THAT is the real world, cat. And her son needs to fully understand that he is being injected in a pit of vipers, lest he will be vulnerable to their corruption. Lying to him about the reality of his situation will not make it better, it will just make him more vulnerable.

It is a terrible situation all the way around, but trying to believe that this boy can possibly have a great relationship with a corrupt parent is unrealistic and needs to be acknowledged.

I realize it is tempting to go along to get along, but that is a dysfunctional solution that helps no one.

You are 100% right in every thing you said, IMA.

The son does need a relationship with a father, but he has a CORRUPT MAN for a father and that is not good for him.

My father was also corrupt and my "relationship" with him was extremely harmful. He was such a bad influence that it would have been better if I NEVER SAW him.

With my father I learned that adultery was just a lifestyle choice. Not only was he corrupt in that way, but in many other ways. Corrupt parents tend to want to be "friends," not parents. My dad used to take me to bars, race tracks, etc. He was a horrible influence.

Teaching your children how they should feel about this is psychologically damaging. They feel what they feel and their feelings shouldn't be discounted in any way.

Any questions about OW should be handled carefully. "You can feel whatever you wish about her."

The kids aren't dumb. He knows she had a part in the destruction of their parents and that anger will likely grow over time.

My father had an affair. I was in my 20s and so was my sis while my brother was 11.

It messed up my brother a lot and it messed us all up for a while.

My sis and I never accepted the OW. My mother even encouraged me to accept things as they were and have a relationship with my father.

It wasn't going to happen, ever. But I had that option as an adult. Your son doesn't and he has to deal with OW. Time and age will let him show his feelings.

But it's not anyone's place to tell him how he should act or feel.

Putting a lot of responsibility on the shoulders of a 9 year old creates boys with white knight syndrome. They then grow up and meet damsels in distress (women with massive issues) and feel noble in taking care of them, solving their problems, and often getting messed over in the end.

I strongly recommend you get your son a counselor and you yourself get guidance on this from professionals who know what they're talking about and not from folks on a forum. We have our own demons that we have wrestled with and also lack the objectivity to give you the best answers to your issues in terms of your son's development.

Adultery is not to be tolerated, but you are divorced now and your ex's relationships are no longer any of your business and your feelings about her are not something to pass on to your kids. Seriously, you're only going to royally screw him up.

Trust the folks who lived it as children and have given you that advice.

help, I was with you until you got to this part.


What screws kids up is adultery, corruption and divorce, not hearing his mother feelings about the OW. I say that as someone who lived through this myself and being SILENT is the absolute worst thing she can do, because it conveys endorsment, which is morally confusing to kids. Her son very much needs to see his mothers reaction to this crime. Her son NEEDS moral guidance more than anything since he is being inserted into a corrupt, immoral situation.

Dr Harley, who IS a professional here makes it very clear:


SW, Dr Harley IS the professional and I would strongly suggest you take his advice.

I do not think that SW is trying to tell her son how to feel about the OW, she is telling him her feelings about her and i think she has every right to do that.

She has no need to ask him what goes on in dad's house because OW is not allowed around him so it is not that she is prying him for information about her ex.

I think she needs to let her son know that she thinks it is wrong for her dad to be with this woman.

Whenever my kids ask my opinion about something, i always tell them this is how i feel about it and why but i want you to formulate your own opinion.

I just think it is wrong to ask this kid to accept this woman like it is nothing......

She does not have the POWER to "tell him how to feel" so that is a moot point. She could beat him within an inch of his life and she still wouldn't be able to make him feel a certain way. Feelings just ARE.

What she should do is exactly what she is doing, telling him the facts and sharing how she feels about his adultery and the OW.

That sounds very much like "telling him how to feel." Which would be very inappropriate, I agree.

Mrs. W - I just want to say that I totally agree with you. I think that any relationship that SW's XH has is adultery as he had no grounds for divorce.

I also agree that it doesn't apply to the BS as the BS DID have grounds for D (according the Bible).

It is a relief to know that I am not alone in my beliefs!

SW - I am truly afraid that I will be in your position one day. Both my DDs are very close to me and to this point, have not had contact with OW since the A was exposed. They have met her, however, because no one knew an A was going on and OW worked for WH's company, so they had met her when they visited my husband at work one day.

I just want to thank you, SW, for this thread. It has helped me tremendously to have insight into both of my DDs' feelings and how I should and can handle things going forward. It may not be much, but I hope that knowing that you have helped someone else will make you feel good about yourself today. Just from this thread, I can tell that you are someone with high morals and I applaud that! Feel good about you!

Oh what a horrible situation. I feel for you SW.

{{{{{{{SW}}}}}}}

Reading this thread made me think of one of Gandhi's most famous quotes " hate the sin, love the sinner".

This boy needs to have a relationship with his father not only emotionally but legally. Unfortunately, it is out of SW's control whether he is introduced to the OW. Much as it makes me to contemplate it.

Clearly, children should be brought up knowing the difference between right and wrong. What his father did was wrong. What the OW did was wrong. He is allowed to make his own judgements about them and hate what they did and how they choose to live their lives. You are allowed and are perfectly right to teach him about how reprehensible their actions have been.

To maintain the relationshp with his father though, there needs to be some differentiation between hating what he did and how he lives his life as opposed to hating him.

SW has an opportunity to teach her son how important it is to live your life in a good way, how important it is not to hurt others, and how selfish thinking can be so destructive to so many people. Her son will see this play out and will see how shallow and selfish his father is. Because his dad's life and the OW's life WILL implode someday. Stupid selfish people never attain REAL happiness. It will always elude them.

SW's son probably still loves his dad and the poor child is in just the most awful situation. I could cry for him. Stupid selfish waynerds.

I know this is hard SW but you have to let it play out and be on hand to answer your son's questions honestly. Your H is selfish so your son will see that. He's not stupid. There's not a great deal you can do if your son does meet with the OW and she makes him laugh or he likes an ice cream she buys him. You cannot control this and it will eat you up if you worry endlessly about it.

As long as your son is getting good moral support from you, he won't go far wrong. He will see the laughter and the ice cream for what they are and will see her for what she is.

Going on rants about OW is not good for the kids. They know what has happened. They know how the BS feels.

But seeing BS angry makes the child feel guilty about seeing the other parent.

Her son knows how she feels. Now it's time to not dwell on it. He needs to be handed over to dad with "have fun at dad's house. See you when you get back!"

If the son asks, then a parent can be honest, but to a point.

I don't agree with my ex living with her bf while the kids are with her. But I can't do anything about it.

Telling my kids that living together before getting married is wrong lets them make their own judgements without telling them what to feel about it.

Kids pick up on things and know a lot more than we give them credit for.

No one is saying that adultery is to be endorsed, but this is now a divorce situation. Passing on feelings to kids is dangerous. They can be guided through this process.

I'm not contradicting SH's advice about the truth. By all means, tell the kids the truth. But what would SH's advice be if he was talking about a couple that was now divorced and it was no longer an affair? Yes, this was an affair partner that led to the destruction of the marriage and I know all the statistics about affairages, but a child has no control over any of this.

A teen might, but a child of 9 is a hostage to the situation.

Provide the kids with moral guidance and examples, but don't bad mouth the other parent and minimize criticism of the situation. It's bad enough for them as it is and I know I was torn between my two parents for a long time because of my mother's constant criticism of my dad. There came a point where I no longer wished to hear it, regardless of how valid it was. Kids don't like to hear their parents criticized and put down.

If asked, answer honestly, but don't volunteer the info or react negatively to things you don't like to hear. Kids can't feel guilt about seeing the other parent. They are free to forge their own relationship with both parents and doing otherwise or hidering that messes kids up.

No one is telling her to "go on rants about the OW," though. What Dr Harley has advocated - and he is right - is that she should tell him her feelings about the OW. He needs to know exactly how this has affected his mother. There is no reason whatsoever to hide her feelings. As Dr Harley has suggested:

helpthelostdads-
Your take on things is different from mine. You act like the way you felt about the situation is the way everyone will feel. Well, I've been in that boy's shoes too, and you can bet darn sure I felt happy to know that, as Mel put it, "adultery isn't just an alternate lifestyle."
There's a big difference between "alienation of affection," --which we all know is frowned upon in divorces and can affect custody-- and telling your son that your father and that woman together chose to break up the FAMILY.
You can call her a "homewrecker," since it is accurate. You don't have to call her a skankaho, which is also accurate, but not helpful in the situation. Her son, when the son meets him, should also know that WxH and OW worked together to break up his family. There is no reason to conceal the truth.
Furthermore, no one told SW to rant about this--she asked what she should say. How about this:
"Honey, I think it's important to have a relationship with your father, but you should always remember that he has shown himself to be morally corrupt. What he and the OW did while they were married to other people is a sin, and I can never accept their relationship.
Yes, I will be saddened if and when people accept their relationship, since it started in the most horrible of ways, but I accept that you need to know and spend time with your father. I will not tell you how to feel about these people, but I wanted to let you know how I felt.
I will not bring the subject up again, but if you ever have any questions, feel free to ask me any time.
I love you."
Follow that with a big hug.
Personally, I hope he DOESN'T have a good time at dad's with skanky.
I hope the boy shows his disgust so much that it causes a rift in their relationship, eventually causing it to crumble.
Do I want the boy to know that? No.
He doesn't need the pressure.
But he should be encouraged to express his true feelings, and should be told that when people make poor choices, we are not there to pick up the pieces and make their "new life" seem all normal and happy.
dads, you seem to have resigned yourself to whatever your xW decides to do. I think that's equally unhealthy. That's like the teacher who throws up their arms and says there's nothing that can be done about the class bully. You are the grown-up, and your kids should know that you will reinforce the boundaries of right and wrong, if they are ever in doubt.