NO KIDDING

I wish I could. I really wish I could. I can pray for it though.

ruby asked my exact question. There have been times in my M when one or the other is comepletely stuck on OUR way. There is no negotiation. I always feel at a loss when that happens because, like she says, there is no C.

Oh...and those of us who teach CAN do...who do you think taught all those can do'ers....bleh!

I'm reading, folks. Obviously much to read and much to catch up on. Both of my bosses are back so I'm trying to fit in work. And I have appointments this evening after work so... I will respond as I can to the many questions.

Quickly, I read the letter to H yesterday and we had a very difficult but needed conversation. We will not be going to the MB seminar.

Please keep up the dialogue. (Great questions, RubyDoo, thank you. You're asking exactly what I'm thinking.) I was thinking that might be what I do here -- ask questions based on what I'm experiencing and where I'm stumbling. I have two in my pocket right now that I want to present but will wait until this helpful POJA discussion is flushed out. (Thank you, Mark, for jumping on it.)

I have to get ready for a conference call.

Thank you.

Will you be going to the counseling instead?

I'm at work and have been trying to post all afternoon. Give me some time and I will try to answer the question of how to apply POJA when one is unwilling to negotiate fairly.

No simple analogies apply here, so it gets more convoluted the more I try to simplify it.

Mark

Ask yourself what you really want! Seriously. If you understand what you want you will be committed to changing your current situation to get it. You will be motivated to change.

What is your goal for your relationship?

How would you behave if you really wanted those results?

Keep this goal in mind as it focuses your BRAIN on your goal instead of your EMOTIONS during those tough conversations. It keeps you out of trouble.

Use your goal to find a common purpose so the other person sees your motives aren't purely selfish or malicious but have there best interests in mind. Maybe it starts out being to have a great marriage. Maybe it is something more narrowly defined like not arguing or fighting that you both can agree to. Find common ground. Start there.

Then focus on this common ground so when you veer off course from this goal you can stop the behavior as you both understand and are also motivated.

Even with this it is the trumping of your emotions with your intelligence that will get you to your goal and stop the destructive patterns as you will recognize the process is not meeting your common purpose.

In a weird way imagine dealing with a very difficult person at work. How would you approach them?

One other idea, when you start to argue or stuck in a battle of wills reinforce your committment to POJA. Reinforce your motive that is good for both. Say - it seems like we're both trying to force our view. I commit to stay in this discussion until we have a solution both of us are happy with.

Another idea to get unstuck on POJA.

Ask questions.

For instance, Mr L4 is looking into buying a house.

Instead of judging him, ask him Why do you want that?

By understanding his purposes you now can understand him and find new alternatives and get unstuck.

How to apply POJA when one spouse refuses to negotiate fairly or even at all:

Often a mistake is made when talking about POJA as it relates to negotiations in marriage. POJA never allows for convincing our spouse to go along with what we want if they do not agree with us. It requires finding a completely different solution that he or she can agree enthusiastically with.

When we negotiate with someone with whom we have a nonromantic relationship with such as a business client or vendor etc, it seems pretty simple to come to a place where we agree in principal with each other in order to each get what we want from the other. The problem we encounter when dealing with our spouse is that we are not simply using our intelligence but also have a strong emotional investment in the negotiations. The part of our brain that handles emotions does not think or process data, it merely responds to various things to allow us to have feelings. When we rely on these feelings to make decisions logic, data, reason all go out the window.

POJA is never for the purpose of getting our way at the expense of our spouse. On the contrary, it is supposed to prevent us from gaining at his or her expense. If we want one thing and our spouse wants something else, the POJA solution does not require that we convince our spouse of the merits of our choice or that we succumb to arguments in support of his or her choice. Rather the answer lies in searching out a choice yet undiscovered that we can both agree to enthusiastically.

Refusing to take advantage of our spouse by attempting to gain at his or her expense does not require his or her active participation. It is about our own actions and refusal to act independently over his or her objections. (IB is ALWAYS a Love Buster).

POJA is not designed to give us what we desire. It is supposed to keep us from hurting our spouse by taking at his or her expense. If we are in a state of intimacy and so willing to give even at our own expense it can also keep us from hurting ourselves, but seldom does that become necessary since usually we are all too willing to let our Taker run all negotiations.

Part of the problem involved in following POJA is understanding the need to completely overcome our Taker�s influence. But another aspect that makes negotiations difficult is that we tend to define two sides of the problem and each proposes a solution, one that solves the side we propose as being the problem. What we miss is that the definition of the problem is also subjective. We see it is my way or yours when in reality there may be many possible outcomes, some of which are much more agreeable to one or both of us than others. In most cases there may be more than one solution that meets the requirements of POJA and in still others POJA is not required since our spouse will simply acquiesce to our desires.

In order to make POJA work without our spouse actively negotiating to POJA decision with us requires simply that we ourselves do not negotiate unfairly nor act from independence against his or her wishes. That is, I can protect my spouse even if she or he is not willing to protect me from his or her own selfishness. Everybody always comes up with the example of what to do if decisions absolutely must be made. There may be times when life or death lies in the balance but honestly, how often is that actually the case? Disagreement most often occurs over mainly trivial stuff and so delaying the decision until I can find a choice to which my wife agrees enthusiastically is normally not only possible but easily accomplished and often ends up being a better decision for me as well since once I can overcome my emotions to examine the real problem rather than the smoke and mirrors version I have defined in order to get my own way, I find that the best choice for me is what is also best for her. Again, this does not require that she agree to use POJA since I am the one that is avoiding the Love Buster of IB by negotiating fairly even if she is unwilling to let POJA enter the conversation.

By deciding to follow POJA for ourselves we protect our spouse from being hurt by us both unknowingly and on purpose. By following POJA we keep from depleting our spouse�s Love Bank by avoiding Independent Behavior and also avoid doing things we already know would make him or her unhappy such as long discussions with past loves, spending more than we should on that new coat or car we can�t afford and even such things as an affair since if we choose to only do what our spouse is in enthusiastic agreement with we will certainly never allow ourselves to fall in love with someone else.

Deciding to follow POJA on our own is like so much else in behavioral psychology. We choose to do the right thing and often discover that others are affected positively by our choices. Sometimes they too change their choices. Even when they don�t, we can know that we did the right thing.

This topic is one that does not lend itself very well to an analogy. I tried numerous times to come up with one that fit without causing a serious leap in logic or ignoring some piece in order to make fit. The more I simplified the more convoluted the whole thing became. What I realized is that the answer is simply that we can decide to follow POJA no matter what our spouse does, since like most of what we talk about around here, it is our own actions that we ultimately have control over. It�s when we want to get our own way no matter what our spouse wants that POJA fails and that, boys and girls, husbands and wives, ladies and gentlemen is what POJA is meant to prevent.

Mark

I am new but I am going to jump in with a couple of observations.

What is described above is following the principles of POJA even if your spouse will not. If the goal is to work on yourself, then obviously that is a good approach since it simultaneously requires that you really examine your own motivations, and protect your non-participating spouse wherever possible.

I do think though that the reality of family decision-making is more complicated and that, yes, decisions to have to be made. Or, perhaps more accurately, the consequences of consciously not making a decision are just as concrete as going ahead and making a decision about which your spouse may be unenthusiatic.

(a) family car requires major repairs to remain on the road; non-participating spouse wants to pay; you think the car has become too expensive to maintain and should be junked

(b) child wants permission to go on a week-long school trip; non-participating spouse is willing to give it; you are not

(c) child gets partial scholarship to expensive but extremely expensive college; non-participating spouse willing to do anything to support; you are not.

Doing nothing in these situations actually aligns with your own desires, but non-particiating spouse will be peeved. If he/she goes ahead and does whatever w/o your agreement, surely your own Lovebank will start to be depleted.

The potential house purchase L4 is faced with is in the same category (let's assume FTM her Husband is quite enthusiastic about it). She can try to follow POJA to the best of her ability, and she doesn't have to make a decision, but the result (presumably) of the status quo is staying in current house and that may well be a LB to Mr L4. Yet it seems a bit much that L4 would have to simply agree to such a significant change in their circs if she is not enthusiastic about it.

I would hope that someone who has thoroughly investigated POJA would understand that it is not about getting one's own way. I would hope that that is a given. Assuming that it IS a given, AND the taker is not involved, AND the non-participating spouse is still unmoved....that is the question. I already know what I want. I already know that POJA is not designed so that I can get it. And I am not supposed to go along with my spouse's option if I am not enthusiastic, and if NO decision is made, there will be negative consequences. That scenario has played out for me before, so I know it must happen to others. That is the crux that never seems to be concretely addressed.

It reminds me of when we set boundaries with my parents regarding holidays. Holidays were a stress-filled time because my mom wanted to manipulate when we visited. So that year I came up with a statement. No matter what angle she used, I just repeated that statement. Over and over. No variation. She got pretty mad and eventually said, "Stop just saying the same thing!" Of course, MY purpose for saying the same thing over and over was to get her to stop manipulating. In this situation, however, sometimes hearing things you already know can be frustrating. I know what works in the "model." I need to know what to do in this specific situation when the model isn't working. In another thread, there are a couple of guys who are in agony over a lack of SF. I cannot count the number of times they have simply been told, "Meets your wife's EN's and she will want SF." Yes, that is the ideal, but I think we can all agree that IRL there are times when it doesn't work that way.

So, what does one do when POJA will not work in the traditional way?

I actually began trying to construct an explanation based on the car needing repair model above. The problem I found with it and every other possible model I could find was that it becomes very difficult for me to argue both sides of the equation. The result would be that someone could easily take a single argument from my explanation and run with it to the loss of getting the whole point of the discussion.

And like I said, there are times that a decision has to be made and unless it happens there will be negative consequences. But in reality these things really are few and far between. The reason they stand out to everybody I think is for two reasons.
1) They are really difficult to envision from both sides. Since each spouse has made up their own mind there really is very little that can be argued that will change it.
2) POJA doesn't get used on a daily basis to make decisions that are not Earth shaking and relegated to only huge, serious and profound problems that crop up. The rest of the time both spouses just do whatever they want to do and it isn't until they NEED the other's input or cooperation that agreement is even sought.

AS it regard's #1, a big part of the problem is they way we define it for ourselves. When we are not working from the same goals, don't much really love each other because our Love Banks are pretty empty and we have left a bunch of things unresolved because it became easier to just leave it alone rather than to continue the conflict, opposing views of something become diametrically opposed positions with no room for any other possible outcomes other than the two proposed.

We align ourselves not with each other to gain understanding of the problem, seek a real solution and resolve conflict but rather in opposition to each other, a line in the sand between us, a kind of I win or you win, all or nothing mentality. We define the problem this way exactly. My way or yours. I get what I want or you get what you want. Fix the car or junk it. Buy a house or don't buy a house. Those all sound like they are clear choices and all the possible outcomes but in reality they are not the only possible answers to the questions because we are the ones framing the questions. If we frame it differently we might find it easier to find the solution.

Now as it relates to #2, and I think this is the biggest trouble we have with POJA from the very beginning. We don't actually follow it for every day normal decisions so we end up trying to pull it out when we get stumped. But this means that we are not in practice, do not trust each other, have been in conflict all along and have low Love Banks before we even begin.

We start out just acting on our own without even bringing things up in conversation with our spouse in an effort to avoid conflict over things so trivial and mundane as what to stock up on at the grocer's. In reality, we already know that something is going to be difficult to deal with along the way and would rather save our arguing energy for that life or death struggle. But since we are not working together to solve problems all along but each acting independently to solve the minor day to day stuff, we are also avoiding sharing the intimate details of our lives with each other. We make a decision we know is going beyond the bounds of this unwritten yet hard and fast rule and yet one of us makes a decision anyway and before long we are keeping it a secret. Of course it doesn't remain a secret forever and then our IB becomes a stumbling block to intimacy.

Now when we have to decide right now to fix the car or let it go to the junk yard, pay the thousands of dollars of tuition or not, buy the house we can't afford or live in a tent...eat caviar or starve to death...

Can everyone see how absurd the arguments can become or should I carry it further?

At this point we each carry resentments that keep us from actually wanting our spouse to be happy with the decision. We each define the problem in such a way that we can best argue for our pet solution and we both draw a line in the sand and prepare to defend it against all foes, foreign and domestic. We can't work together because that would require that we actually want our spouse to be happy and our Taker doesn't really give a rat's behind whether he or she is happy or not as long as we get what we want. We are BOTH beginning form a position of all or nothing because we have each defined it as such and neither of us is willing to give in because that would be sacrifice and you know what Dr Harley says about sacrifice and I'll bet I can get 50 MB friends to agree with me and...

Time, Blue!

What needs to be fixed on the car? What will the value of the car be when fixed versus the cost of having the repairs made? What will the cost of replacing the car be? Can we afford to replace the car? All of these run through our mind...

We can't afford to pay all of that tuition for Jr to go to that fancy school out East and he could get just as good an education right here as there and...

Hey how about sitting Jr down and telling him...

Here's the deal, Son. We can afford 5 grand per semester. That's what we have. I'm sorry we didn't start saving up for your college fund when you were born, but we were young like you and not planning very far in advance back then. How about we supply you with the 5K and you make up the difference if you want to go to that fancy school in New England. Otherwise, I'm afraid it just ain't gonna happen. We can only pay for about two weeks, so you either get a job before then or study really fast...

When I was in QA I used to get a lot of stuff brought my way that a lot of really smart folks had already exhausted themselves trying to solve. "We tried everything." Was the way most of these conversations began. My replay was to look at what was in front of me as if studying it carefully and then say "So you tried throwing bricks at it then..."

Typical reaction of a mechanical engineer in this case could have made one heck of a YouTube video...

Oh. So you haven't really tried EVERYTHING, just everything you've thought of trying so far...

I have no idea whether or not you should buy a house, send Jr to an Ivy League school or call someone to haul off your junk car (Here's a thought...DONATE it...use the deduction to help pay for a replacement...or find out if the local HS has an auto shop class that needs a project and will do the work if you buy the parts.)

What I'm getting at is that there are ways to look at the problem that will be much more likely to lead to a solution that both can agree on. But when we are in Conflict we can't even begin to go there.

And when we've both just been making decisions all along until this latest crisis occurred without regard for the feelings of our spouse we have nothing left in the ole' Love Trunk to give and so our Taker takes charge right from the start.

POJA isn't about compromise; it's about working together. Like any team it requires practice together to make it work. If you wait till the big game to pull out the trick play rather than practicing it all season long, it is more likely to fail.

Not every problem can be defined as "A" or "B" and no other possible outcomes and this is the way POJA most often works. It's usually by redefining or reframing the problem that we are most likely to find an answer.

And here's the kicker...

If you are hurt by your spouse doing things without your agreement then that's only part of the problem. If your spouse won't wait to find enthusiastic agreement from you before acting on his or her own, that's certainly a Love Buster and it is going to hurt you and hurt the relationship in the long run.

But what do you do when it's you that wants to do something and your spouse just simply won't go along. That's when you get to show how it's supposed to work...

If your spouse acts independently, that's a problem. But are you avoiding all IB yourself or merely using POJA when you have to have cooperation and acting on your own the rest of the time?

Your first attempt at POJA should be what to have for dinner on Thursday and not should I have cancer surgery...

It is the little, seemingly insignificant day to day, hour by hour actions and habits that either do the most good or the most harm to the relationship. The BIG problems just get all the press.

JMO and worth every cent you paid for it...

Mark

Mark you hit in on the money - it was the day to day "yes dear" on everything instead of POJA that caused me to on day say screw everyone who has ever tried tomake me do it there way and I dont wanna any more that sent me tumbling down the road.

My H views any disagreement with him and being against him.
If i dont curb the tires right its cause I didnt listent o him and dont respect him
If I buy two bags of chips (a flavor I like and his and the kids chips) then I am not listening and being wasteful
If I dont put the keys on the key rack its because i dont respect him
if I dont clean the kitchen after cooking dinner immediatly after working a 10 hour day its because I dont respect him
If I talk to a person at supercuts who is complaining about their child and offer advise (which they asked for) I am being nosey and not minding my own business and therefore ignoring him when he tells me to mind my own business and not talk to people about there problems because I shouldnt offer my two cents...so i dont respect him...

His way is right - any other way is wrong...and there is no POJA...so I am back to "yes dear" again - big time because now if I disagree he has the biggest trump card of all that gets slammed down. I try and Plan A with all my might and not cause conflict but I get tired of not expressing myself - if you have a response - i understand if you wish to post to my thread so as not to thread jack...He expects perfection - he actually said this last night..you need to be perfect and remember everythign I have told you to do and how to do it...especially now given what you have done. I cant be perfect...so I am doomed to fail.

Added to Notables.

Thank you for that post Mark. I know it must have taken much time and thought. I never know about my brain. I am glad you took such time and care. It clarified a lot of things for me.

Hi L4-

Just wanted you to know I'm still praying, mulling, reading, and thinking about you and your DH.

I would love to get together the next time you are in the valley for coffee and a chat, or a walk along the river and a chat...


Let me know

I hope you'll understand that I am not going to reply to each post as I usually try to do. The POJA discussion among you lot has been very eye-opening and highly informative. In fact, posts during the last week overall have been very affecting. My thanks to all of you.

If I have time, I'll reveal my recent revelations, for lack of a better term. But there are other things I want to do too, and time may prevent me from covering everything I'm considering sharing.

Please do not let the stuff I'll be throwing up here now stop the POJA discussion if you want to keep it rolling. It's among the best I've ever seen here on MB about POJA -- the respectful Q and A and the dissection has been awesome. I hope others are getting as much from it as I am.

JT -- I hope that can happen sooner then later.

Jim and Mrs. Flint -- Are you still around? Because I miss you two.

RubyDoo -- Your direct questions are indeed among those that I'd like answers to. Maybe I'll re-post them when I submit a few questions of my own.

My plan is to get back to what I was doing during the fall and pull back my time here. Get my MB cup filled and participate on the boards in a limited manner. Come maybe a couple of days a week instead of almost every day that I've worked back into within the last couple of weeks. (Though I may visit the Healthy Habits thread more often because that's among my accountability spots for getting fit.) While I love the support and insight provided by you, I find I go throughout the day thinking about what I should remember and tell back here. What I need to be doing instead (and what I was doing pretty well), is focusing on things I can do for H, for our family, and for my own recovery.

H and I talked last Sunday.

Actually, I talked a little. Sometimes I�d say, �I know,� or �I understand,� or �I�m sorry,� otherwise I let him carry most of the conversation. This summary is provided in no particular order though I want to try to touch on everything. I'll use quotes to provide as close of a representation of what was said where I it might be important.

We secured the kids upstairs so we could have �grown-up time� and settled on the couch. I read him the letter. Much of it was what tst wrote. I added a few things but the message was pretty much what you�ve all read.

His response was that he will not do MB. Money was the reason he gave first. Later on when I mentioned that D is much more expensive then what the seminar might cost, he said he knows how much D costs. I asked if possibly saving our M was worth $3,500 and I don't remember exactly what his first words were. But he doesn't think flying to Minnesota is the answer. We could certainly do something around here if we decide to do anything.

As much as he liked our MC, Dr. R., he can�t go back to that office. Too much of a trigger. He said, �But I know we�ll have to do MC if we�re going to stay married.� This caught my attention. I asked if he could elaborate. He said he knows if we decide to stay married, we�re probably going to need therapy. I asked if he�d consider doing it the other way around and go to counseling now to help us in deciding if we want to recover our M. He said no. He wants to decide first. He then continued on about how going is useless and a waste of money.

He is still deeply hurting.

He says he might have a good day but then the next he knows I�m a lying [censored] and can�t stand what I�ve done to him and our family.

I asked if he has any ideas of things I can do or we can do to help him and he can�t think of anything.

He said if it wasn�t for one or two things not going my (L4�s) way, I�d be gone now. (He read some things I had written to myself during my A and then after the A when I was in withdrawal and trying to determine whether to leave our M. I knew he had read these long ago but learned he has copies of these notes still.) I didn�t know how to respond. If FOM had showed up at my door, I believe I would have considered everything and stayed with H. But I don�t honestly know. And this is where RH sucks. Because I don�t know if telling H the truth helped him. What I stated was along the lines of, �Back then I was so messed up, I honestly can�t say what I would have done during it all if in one moment I was forced to choose. The few times I really thought about what I might do, I thought that I would probably try to work it out with you.� He said, �Ya, right. That�s a lie. You and I both know that�s a lie.� �But, we�ll never know because that never happened,� I replied. �We can guess left and right but I am with you. I stayed then and I�m still here now.� He said, �If FOM left his W, you would have been gone in an instant.� I said, �I don�t know that I would have. And I am here. We are here now. I am sorry I caused you to have doubt. I am committed to you and this M. I am trying to show you that I am in this M and that I love you.� He said that he believes me and knows I�ve changed. That he trusts me about other men now (first I�d heard this) but because he knows I would have left back then, he knows he�s not good enough for me.

He said he would have never married me if he had known about my cheating before we married. And that�s what rips him apart the most. He wouldn�t be here suffering through this if he had walked in on my pre-M secret 17-years-ago.

He said he might have been able to get beyond my A nearly two years ago because our M was really crappy and maybe he could have worked through that. He doesn't know what to do because of my betrayal before we married.

He feels he should run out and be with a woman so he can know what it�s like to get his fun in.

He does not know if he even wants to love me.

He does not know if he even wants to stay married to me.

The reason that he was sitting there with me was because he wants to keep our family intact if possible. If not for the kids, he would have been gone.

He wants to be happy. (He first stated this to me in an IM the day before. )

He referenced my A and FOM quite a bit.

Believes he has no pride because he�s still with me.

He thought I was the one who would never hurt him as so many others have. And not only have I hurt him, I have hurt him more than anyone ever has.

Said probably over a dozen times that no matter what he does, he will never be perfect enough for me. Said he�s not a touchy-feely-what-can-I-do-for-you-how-are-you-doing kind of guy that I need. I challenged him on this. I told him he does not know what I need and it�s unfair for him to speak for me.

I asked, �Do you want to be in a happy and healthy M with me, where we�re both in romantic love?� He avoided answering this question every-which-way come Sunday. And I asked it in multiple ways, multiple times, including, "If it was possible to learn how you could meet my needs and be the husband you claim I�m wanting, would you want to try? Do you want to be with me if you could be happy with me?" He kept telling me what it is that I supposedly want. I�d wait then ask the question again. In the end, he said he believes we�re just not compatible. He said I need a guy who is going to treat me like a queen and he needs a woman who will kick back, go with the flow, chill, and just let him be. I told him I want to be that woman and I want to know what his needs are, what will make him happy. He wouldn�t tell me. Kept saying that it�s no use because he won�t change and I need more. This was the one I kept internally banging my head on. I wanted him to tell me what he wants and he kept turning it back to me saying it doesn't matter because he'll never be able to give me what I want. I told him that what I want is for us to be nice, considerate, caring, and in love with each other.

He said he�ll never know the right things to say like Dr. R. He said he�ll never get it right and therefore doesn�t want to bother.

He said he�ll never be the warm, caring, share-everything-with-you-person like FOM. I responded that I didn�t want him to be like FOM. I�m love MrL4. I want MrL4 to be like MrL4 and I want our M to recover.

I said that I understand that he doesn�t want to do MB or MC. However, perhaps we could brainstorm about other ideas that might help him heal or determine if he wants to recover our M. For example, there are some BHs on MB who have offered to correspond privately with him or we could talk to Pastor. Or maybe there�s something else out there we haven�t thought of. He said there�s nothing that can help him. He needs to figure out if he live with me day-to-day knowing what I did and who I am.

I reminded him of the ENQ from long ago. He said he won�t take it.

I told him that I have things in me that I'm scared of telling him. That I don't know how he'll respond and I'm worried that I'm experiencing some depression. I want to be able to go to him but I can see how he's still hurting and I don't want to burden him with anything more then I already have. He said he cares for me very much and he wants me to know that I can still talk with him and go to him about anything. I told him I feel the same way and want him to come to me.

He will never forget what I did. I told him I�m not expecting us to and I will never ask him to get over it. I told him that I need to remember what I did and all of its consequences so that I will stay vigilant and ensure it will never happen again.

He said that my next husband will get the benefits of the new, honest L4. I said that I have only one huband and that�s MrL4. He has the new, honest L4. �But I�ll never forget how you were able to lie to me. How you didn�t give a f*** about me.�

I mentioned a couple of things he had said during that Thursday morning talk when he told me he thinks we should D. I mentioned his comments about not having fun together anymore and that he doesn�t trust me. He said that he did not say we don�t have fun together any more. And he said he did not say he doesn�t trust me. I very clearly heard him say both of these things because of how they hit me. The trust thing we even discussed for about 30 seconds. I was internally floored that he didn�t remember saying these things to me. I said I was sorry if I misunderstood him and that I must have remembered the conversation differently. He did remember what he had said about not respecting me.

He said he needs more time to decide if he wants to attempt to recover our M. He said he doesn�t know how much time he�ll need, but he probably won�t know in three weeks. And he can�t promise me that he�ll ever know. He said he knows that he runs the risk that I may not be able to wait it out.

He believes he�ll have to forgive me in order to stay married to me. He hasn�t forgiven me and doesn�t know if he�ll ever be able to.

After dinner and we put the kids to bed, I grabbed Love Busters and approached H, who was watching TV. He has seen me reading it in bed and I told him once quickly what it is about.

I sat down and showed him the book. I said, "This is the book I told you about by Dr. Harley, about behaviors couples engage in that do damage to their M and how to stop them. I know you said you don't want to do MB or MC and you're not up for any outside help, but would you consider reading this? It has helped me a lot in seeing how I'm hurting us." He looked at the book and at me, paused, and with suspicion in his eyes said, "Maybe." (Yay!) I flipped the pages to point out that I have a lot of highlighter and notes in mine and asked if he wants to read my copy of if he'd prefer a clean one. He said he'd prefer a clean copy. I said I'd get him one.

Here's one place where I need your help. I own and have read HNHN and FILSIL, but I read them way back when. I'm nearing the end of my third read of LB. I presented him with LB but wonder now if I should suggest he read another. If he might read just one Harley book, is there another that might be better? With this one very small opportunity to help him, I want to make sure it'll be the most helpful book available.

I have not read SAA but maybe that would be the best. I don't know.

What do you think? Folks who have read Harley's stuff, which book would be the best for my H at this juncture?

If the majority think I should go with another publication, I was thinking I'd leave it on his nightstand with a note. Something like: "Dear MrL4, You said you might read the Love Busters book by Dr. Harley. I presented it to you because it's the one I'm finding most applicable to me at this time. However, after thinking about our talk on Sunday and knowing his other materials, I think this one might be more meaningful for you. I love you, L4."

Monday night H went to bed early and I stayed up and wrote him a letter. I repeated some of the things he said to show that I was trying to understand him and I reconfirmed my commitment to his healing and our M.

In the email I also presented two proposals.

The first was that we return to using a practice we learned in MC. When either of us feels that the discussion is getting uncomfortable, that person will say, "I am flooding," (flooding referring to the adrenalin and emotional rush that fills your body when you get upset) and the other will respect that that person needs to remove him/herself from the conversation. This is done with the understanding that we will continue the discussion later. I added that I want to be able to better identify what I might be saying or doing to upset him so I hope he'll agree to letting the other ask later on, "Why did you have to leave?" to which the person who flooded will answer as best s/he can.

I also proposed that we actively invest in more time with each other. I asked how he feels about making written appointments for spending time with each other.

He hasn't commented on the email at all so I don't know if he has read it. I want to ask him if he's received it and also how he feels about me having another session with Steve.