I would hesitate to marry anyone who:

Doesn't seem motivated to find/keep a job
Insists on spending "their" money on frivilous items while the other spouse does the heavy financial lifting
Cannot get what they need without asking family members who are no longer responsible for them
Has no concept of long term planning
Is infliexible about the future
May have an apron-strings cutting issue
Cannot manage anger

You may have warts and a curse from the devil on your head. But, as a hard working, goal oreinted person, AND as a woman, a H who will not take care of the above issues is going to make you miserable - at least on some level. And children? Most women - even thoe of us who work - want to have time to spend with our children. Shouldering all of the other burdens as well...a recipe for resentment.

I don't want to sound fatalistic, but if the no ambition/money spending/ seemingly selfish thing bothers you now......Unless there is some big earth-shaking crisis it may not every change.

I also think that spending time really thinking about what you want and who you want to be - inside and out - is a good idea. It's eay to get into "panic mode" after a certain age (I remember the 8th time I was a bridesmaid - I wanted to shove that bouquet up somebody's butt), but you really have got time for marriage, kids, etc. The RIGHT choice is way more important than the now choice.

Mel,

To answer your question. It has been stated an a variety of publication that people who live together OFTEN think that they will have a better chance of not divorcing because they KNOW each other. However, for first time marriages, the divorce rate is found to be roughly 30%. If you factor in ALL marriage, first,second, third, the rate jumps to the 50% often quoted.

For first time marriages where the couple lived together before marriage, the divorce rate is "slightly" higher than for those that did not and are in first time marriages. I do know the rate is not the 50% often quoted, it is lower, but for first time marriages. Hence the belief that living together helps a marriage is false.

The reason I suppose could be stated as the issue of renter vs. buyer. I have no quarrel with that. I just often hear from folks I know that the reason is "its just a piece of paper". Which as you say is definitely a Renters mentality.

Harley did not distinguish between first time marriages and second time marriages but I would guess he is mostly seeing second time marriages because rarely do people have the insight to go to a marriage counselor of Harley's caliber before they mess up at least on marriage.

On the other mand, it really makes little difference to subject at hand because given how she sees her fiance, this engagement should be over.

JL

You are flirting with disaster here. If he beat up his ex-girlfriend, then he will beat you up, too. Magnetic charm and lack of responsibility and empathy generally add up to sociopath. At the very least he has all the warning signs of a physically abusive person. Why are you ignoring this aspect of his character? Are you at all afraid of what he might do if you try and get rid of him?

Its amazing how we have been trained to believe that living together is helpful, rather than harmful, when it actually the opposite. I know that I used to believe this too. In some of the studies cited by Dr Harley, the other factors, such as 2nd and 3rd marriages were factored out and these marriages still had an 85% divorce rate. He has a chapter devoted to this in Renters, Buyers, and Freeloaders that is very comprehensive.


Agree.

Mel, nomader,

If you go to www.marriage.about.com you will find. The following statements which are clearer than the lump ones you find elsewhere.

Readily Available Cohabitation Facts
�Living together is considered to be more stressful than being married.

�Just over 50% of first cohabiting couples ever get married.


�In the United States and in the UK, couples who live together are at a greater risk for divorce than non-cohabiting couples.


�Couples who lived together before marriage tend to divorce early in their marriage. If their marriage last seven years, then their risk for divorce is the same as couples who didn't cohabit before marriage.

Cohabitation Facts Rarely Mentioned
�In France and Germany cohabiting couples have a slightly lower risk of divorce.

�If cohabitation is limited to a person's future spouse, there is no elevated risk of divorce.


�In the U.S., cohabiting couples taking premarital education courses or counseling are not at a higher risk for divorce.

Again, while this isn't really what nomader asked, it is something for her to consider as well as the more obvious issues she mentioned.

JL

Additionally, the studies that Dr Harley cites in his book and his own case studies demonstrate a much higher rate of domestic violence in cohabitation and married after cohabitation situations.

Here are some statistics that Dr Harley has cited, which line up with his own case studies:

My own numbers (85% failure rate among those who live together before marriage), comes from my own research and extrapolations of studies I've read in the past. Since I have not published any of these, nor do I intend to publish them, I'll direct you to some recent studies done by others.

One study that you may find interesting was done by Bennett, Blan, and Bloom (American Sociological Review, 1988, Vol 53: 127-138) entitled, "Commitment and the Modern Union: Assessing the Link Between Premarital Cohabitation and Subsequent Marital Stability."

The point made by the authors is that, overall, the risk of divorce after living together is 80% higher than the risk of divorce after not living together, which is already too high. In other words, those who live together before marriage are almost twice as likely to divorce than those who did not live together. But they also point out that the risk of divorce is even higher if you don't live together more than three years prior to marriage. The longer you live together prior to marriage, the less the risk of divorce until after 8 years of living together, when the risk of divorce is equal to those who have not lived together.

Another interesting study was conducted by Hall and Zhao (Cohabitation and Divorce in Canada, Journal of Marriage and the Family, May 1995: 421-427). They write,


The popular belief that cohabitation is an effective strategy in a high-divorce society rests on the common-sense notion that getting to know one another before marrying should improve the quality and stability of marriage. However, in this instance, it is looking more and more as if common sense is a poor guide.
Their study showed that cohabitation itself was shown to account for a higher divorce rate, rather than factors that might have led to cohabitation, such as parental divorce, age at marriage, stepchildren, religion, and other factors. In other words, other factors being equal, you are much more likely to divorce if you live together first.

DeMaris and MacDonald (Premarital Cohabitation and Marital Instability: A Test of the unconventionality Hypothesis, Journal of Marriage and the Family, May 1993: 399-407), echo Hall and Zhao. They found that the unconventionality of those who live together does not explain their subsequent struggle when married. There is something about living together first that creates marital problems later. They write:

Despite a widespread public faith in premarital cohabitation as a testing ground for marital incompatibility, research to date indicates that cohabitors' marriages are less satisfactory and more unstable than those of noncohabitors.

Undoubtedly there are some self-selection factors that make people who live together more prone to marital problems later. But the gist of current research is that these factors are not enough to explain the astonishingly huge effect. Simply stated, if you live together before marriage, you will be fighting an uphill battle to save your marriage.

If you like to spend your evenings hidden among the periodicals of your local library, here are some other studies that show how risky it is to live together before marriage:

Balakrishnan, Rao, et. al., (1987) A hazard model analysis of the covariates of marriage dissolution in Canada. Demography, 24, 395-406.
Booth and Johnson (1988). Premarital cohabitation and marital success. Journal of Family Issues, 9, 255-272.

Bumpass and Sweet (1989). National estimates of cohabitation. Demography, 26, 615-625.

DeMaris and Leslie (1984). Cohabitation with the future spouse: Its influence upon marital satisfaction and communication. Journal of Marriage and the family, 46, 77-84.

DeMaris and Rao (1992). Premarital cohabitation and subsequent marital stability in the United States: A reassessment. Journal of Marriage and the Family, 54, 178-190.

Teachman and Polonko (1990). Cohabitation and marital stability in the United States. Social Forces, 69, 207-220.

Teachman, Thomas and Paasch (1991). Legal status and the stability of coresidential unions. Demography, 28, 571-486.

Thompson and Colella, (1992). Cohabitation and marital stability: Quality or commitment? Journal of Marriage and the Family, 54, 259-267.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5025b_qa.html

Yikes!!!

Double yikes!!!!

Yes they do!!!
Financial stress is a major contributor to marital breakdown.

Triple yikes!!!!

Do you want a boy or a man? If you were my daughter my suggestion to you would be run. Run hard, run fast. Boys are fun to play with. But boys need to grow up and become men who can face the RESPONSIBILITY of raising a family.

He is still relying on his parents, and they have allowed him not to grow up. He refuses to move more than 5 hours away from them. I suggest you encourage him to move back in with them so they can finish the job of turning this boy into a man. That is not your job. Do you want to grow him up? How will you do that? Your relationship is lopsided now. How can this improve?

From what you have detailed here I would not suggest you invest in this any further. And definitely you don't want to have children with this person. You need two adults not you, one baby and one over grown child. I would only suggest you get married if you are prepared for a future of frustration, hurt, and pain, punctuated with a few moments of fun to keep you hooked in the relationship.

Good luck
BCBoy

JL, if you are interested in this subject, I would also suggest the book I cited above, Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders. Dr. Harley has done extensive research on this subject and devoted a whole chapter to it in his book. It is a fascinating read. The chapter is "Compatibility, Test or Curse? Living Together before Marriage." pg 109

The next section outlines how a person can change from renter to a buyer, "The Buyers Agreement-How Can you Make it Work." Lots of excellent ideas in there.

Anyone who has lived together would benefit from those 2 chapters.

Another good resource is here: Vanier Institute of Family This is the section on the prevalence of domestic violence in cohabitations:

I think I would tell him that you have concerns about his ability to accept responsibility and would like to live apart until you're convinced he can support himself without anyone else's help for at least a year. Then at the end of that year, you can determine whether to break the engagement or not.

Until he's able to do that, you have no reason to trust his ability to pull his weight financially or otherwise. He sounds immature and irresponsible. Scary combination and not appropriate husband or father material.

What if you got sick or had a special needs child and couldn't work? That would concern me greatly. It's important to have a strong relationship at the get go because challenges pop up in marriage all the time that can weaken the relationship. It doesn't sound like your relationship has a strong enough foundation, to be honest.

The fact that you're doubting getting married seems to me to be enough of a reason not to. Marriage is a big decision, and it should not be entered into without careful thought and being at least very sure you're doing the right thing for yourself.

At 31, you're not a flighty, giddy girl on cloud 9 over her engagement. You need to be practical about who you choose as husband and father and make a good solid choice. You don't have a whole lot of time for him to grow up and become more responsible before your healthiest child bearing years are gone, but you do have time to start over if you chose to and learned not to waste time on poor candidates.

I would say to give it a trial year of living separately and keeping an eye on how he supports himself and spends his money before I'd make a firm decision on marriage.

He's got champagne taste on a beer budget and has never quite shifted from teen to adult mentality in terms of finances. He's never had to completely rely on himself, so he's never borne the full weight of supporting himself. The enabling parents are not truly helping him. They're just trying to keep him out of their house and fooling everyone that they did an adequate job at parenting. It's tough to realize your kids can't support themselves because then it's a reflection on you as a parent. So, if that means helping them with rent or whatever, no one else really needs to know - until it becomes quite apparent to a prospective spouse.

Mel,

With all due respect I'll do my own research on this. I am a scientist and what passes for statistics and research in the medical field and social sciences makes most people in my areas of science gag. For one thing facts are not well defined. For example: if you note in the quote I posted it points out that only 50% of the people living together ever marry, and if 35% of those divorce, then one say with safety that of couples living together 85% ever have successful marriages.

I refuse to believe that .15 x 0.5 which is 7.5% of couples living together have successful marriages. That is just the same as people having affairs having successful marriages. However, like the number I just stated the truth is most affairs don't lead to marriages. Particulary when it is common for young adults in their 20's to live together even for a brief time before marriage.

Further, as the article I quoted from points out, first marriages are different from second marriages and I doubt that Harley counsels many people before their first marriage. I won't say he doesn't counsel some, but again when only 50% of people living together actually get married, the numbers become very misleading.

I'll do my homework if you like, but I will bet you won't find the answer that Harley quotes because from what you posted he has not delineated clearly the basis for his analysis. Just a cursory glance suggests that only 7.5% of the marriages working is way too low.

I recall sitting on a airplane next to a woman who engaged me in conversation. THis was some 20-25 years ago. I have no idea how we got on the subject but she was an ardent feminist and she started throwing "facts" at me. One of which is when men and women divorce: men have much more money to spend that women. It turns out that NOW published this "data". In case you haven't realize math, statistics, and science are my thing and have been for most of my almost 65 years. I pointed out that I did not know of a single company that gave a pay raise to men when the divorced their wives. I also pointed out, that two separate residences was not often cheaper than one, child support was not less than none, and that men might have more disposible income only because their W wasn't spending for them.

Needless to say, this did not go over well with this woman. She had a few choice words to say and all I said was "fine, the facts cannot support the "data" you are quoting". A few years later, NOW had to publish a retraction because the "data" that was quoted was made up/embellished/massaged/rigged whatever one wants to call it. But, basic thoughts suggested that it could not be right.

I also think this is true in this situation. People are using different baselines and not making them clear when they end up with their numbers. Just like the chances of an affair marriage being successful is roughly 3% sounds really low, and it is, but that number includes the fact that most affairs do not lead to marriage in the first place.

I'll do the reading in the next few days, but it matters not to the orginal poster. Her livein and she should be one of the 50% that does not ever marry.

JL

My experiance is..

First girlfriend/wife at 18 years old,(no we didnt get married cuz she got pregnant), was resonable person with money and after we divorced she never asked me for a dime and now has a bussiness and is set for life.

I have a very srong work ethic and her infidelity and other poor choices about work caused her to put the money load on me. It wasn't till she was single again that she got her head together and took care of her financial issues.
I had awesome jobs and a great future ahead of me and I blame my imaturity in relationships not work ethics for why I did not continue on with a positive carreer at that time.


Second wife was polar opposite of first as she was outgoing, intelligent, engaging, spiritual, and charismatic. She also was such a looker that even though I knew better my 27 year old hormones and ego thought she was the one. She was totally supportive of my dreams to be the breadwinner and successful and also helped me get over the guilt I felt for my 1st marriages failure. She understood I suffered from insecurities from childhood and had a tendency to take on more than I could handle.
This very intense woman was truly a sweetheart but she like my first wife did not share the load when it came down to financial responsibility and as time went on I, trying to allow a compromise and carry the load, eventually became the victim of her entitlement issues. Even though I worked hard in different professional fields issues like alcoholism and her expectaion to have everyone forgive her constantly tore me apart. The words "we will be alright" coming from her mouth meant "you will handle it".

I point out that she had a way to control the room wherever we went, ( A sociopathic tendency of people who need to much attention), and she was very able to read ppl and they were drawn to her. (especially men). She also had a temper and would insist that life was supposed to go her way and expected others to deal with it and clean up after her.

I can only blame myself for not listening to my better judgement and trying to create a balanced life with her. Though it is true she had a lot of gifts, the problems that she had and I allowed to rule in our marriage eventually after 18 yrs wore me down to a nub. I love who she was a times and who she could have been but that doesn't change the fact that she was not a good choice for marriage.

My wife has passed away now and the pain her choices,(and my blindness within myself), have caused resulted in her early death at 52 and my inability to work because of injurys sustained by too much labor. I have a high IQ and have been told by many I was colledge material. I don't know what the future holds but I am attempting to pick up the pieces while tending to my broken hearted adult children.

If you marry this guy and hope he will change you will be saddling yourself with a child and also be depriving your children of a father who will be man enough to love thier mother or them.


I say cut your losses and find a Man somewhere in between the first guy you were with and the second one now. You are too responsible of a person to hurt your children with this guy as a father. You will be sorry you did.

I don't know why you are with him now but please look into this with either the Harleys, (worth every dime), or a good counselor that has experiance and not just theory. The very fact that you are here tells me you allready know this is the answer

what she said

JL, I am not a scientist--but you described exactly the issue I have with statistics and studies most people put out.

Thank you for what you said.

I think people can make numbers say all sorts of things... in other words, they can make the numbers fit their theory. Doesn't mean their theory is wrong, it just means I don't really trust most people's numbers as hard and fast in any way.

:-)

Do you find other scientists are as relationally smart as you, or are you an anomaly? What percentage of scientists have a good grasp on relationships? (lol)

Good deal, JL, you might find it to be a real eye opener.

I know that one thing the OP said is that they share the same faith. I am not sure what that means, but if it is a Biblically-based faith, than that is another red flag that people don't seem to talk about anymore. Show me a significant number of people living together who live in separate rooms and don't have sex, and I'll eat my hat. There have also been studies that indicate that people of faith who violate those tenets of sexuality repeatedly prior to marriage can have other types of baggage to deal with. Like I said, in this, "but it feels good" day and age, the whole passe virginity thing isn't popular. But for those who have embraced it as a part of their faith, crossing that line can come with some issues.

Now, my H is finishing his dissertation, and he is what I call a "statistics Nazi" right now. Any time he heres the word "prove" attached to statistics, he cringes. But, if you factor in the faith issue, then percentages of divorce rates are secondary in some ways.

Also, since it does take two to make a marriage work ideally, no matter what the perspective, if there are serious concerns about a future spouse, then those concerns should be taken seriously. Unless this OP has been completely fabricated, regardless of what shortcomings she may have, it doesn't take much of a trained eye to see that this guy has some problems. Take the "all men are pigs" or "all women are....whatever" biases out of the equation, and there is still a real potential problem.

I agree wholeheartedly

Wow, so much feedback here, thank you all. I am overwhelmed. The right choice seems so obvious now that I have said all of this stuff out loud.

I think I have always been the caretaker type. I want to be the person that the other person NEEDS and well ... that is exactly what I got and I am not happy with the situation. I have felt a lot of guilt about wanting him to contribute more like I am not a good person if I can't fully love him despite financial troubles.

I have a lot to process right now. Thank you everyone.

Just consider living apart for a year and seeing if he is capable of really supporting himself without anyone else's help. If he isn't, it's obvious he is not ready to marry. It's as simple and as complicated as that.

If I didn't read otherwise, it almost sounds like you are boarding a younger brother who you are trying to finish raising and getting on his feet - with little success.

There's a great book that will make a lot of sense to you - not very big, quick read. It's called The Dance of Anger, and it talks about this tendency we have to take care of people, at our own expense, and how to stop doing it while still reassuring the other people that you still love them. It helps you nudge them in the direction of taking care of themselves.

You're welcome! I hope everything works out for you--not kidding when I say stay safe. My best friend had a husband who started by punching walls when he was angry and ended by killing their unborn child in her stomach during a beating. I think an hour googling "physical abuse" and "psycho/sociopaths" couldn't hurt. Knowledge is power.

You are smart because you knew something was wrong and acted on it, and more importantly, you're able to look inward and honestly evaluate what you're bringing to the problem. Listen to yer gut!

Best of luck!