Reading along L4 but only have a minute before I have to nip out.


Not sure I want the responsibility of recommending which book Mr L4 should read first but what I would say is that SAA can still trigger me when I read bits of it even now, and I am fully committed to recovery.

Mr L4 is still raw and whilst SAA is fantastic at helping us understand how A's happen, and what needs to be done to end an A, it might open up very raw and painful feelings for him. That in turn could make him want to put it down.

JMO and I'm sure others will be along soon with others.

Take care L4. Still thinking about you both.

"Fall In Love Stay In Love" is the one book that covers the entire program.....

I would suggest either FILSIL or LB'ers!

L4,

I'm trying to decide if I think that FILSIL or SAA would be better for him. If he's only going to read one of them, SAA might give him the best shot at making up his mind. OTOH, FILSIL is probably less threatening, from a trigger stand point at least and is pretty much all inclusive of the MB concepts all in one place. With the exception of flip-flopping the EN and LB sections, FILSIL is actually the MB Weekend seminar in a book. That was why I chose it to introduce MB to the folks at our church.

Of non-MB books, perhaps Torn Asunder...

How 'bout some other input on the choice, Gang.

Of course you know that my offer to communicate with MrL4 stands...

Ideally he will continue to vent a bit longer and then evaluate the merits of actually fixing the marriage. But that is entirely up to him, I'm afraid.

I'm going to skip picking apart your posts for now. I'm sure somebody will come along and begin doing that shortly and I'm at work and really don't have time right now. But let me tell you that even if the things you posted him as saying were shouted in anger and seemed out of control, what he said actually gives me hope for your relationship.

This stuff just sucks the joy out of ya. It sucks the hope out of ya. It sucks the life out of ya. It just plain sucks...

Ah, to be able to change our names to Mulligan and try again...

Mark

I like the Love Dare - along with the movie Fireproof - it doesnt deal with infidelity though..just marriages on the rocks...

H and I have said we wish we could set up cameras to be able to watch ourselves over a week's time. I would love to do this so that I could better see and hear myself as H does.

But that's probably not going to happen. So I have to do my best to see myself as H does through the most objective and unLB-ing lens possible.

The discussion here along with some feedback I've received by MB vets offline has given me great reflection.

Way back on this this thread, I was talking about my frustrations as I was trying to learn POJA but couldn't work through it because H couldn't give a rat's pahoony about coming to any kind of agreement with me. If I recall correctly, Mark wrote that because H was in withdrawal, H wouldn't be up for any kind of POJA. That I had to do the work to pull H back to Intimacy, then we could work on POJA. Until then, maybe drizzle it in here and there on simple things like what to have for dinner.

Since then, I didn't attempt POJA because H wasn't (isn't) in Intimacy. I'd been agreeing to pretty much anything he wanted which sometimes required me sacrificing what I thought was relevant/important/right/best. And MBers know (and I've since learned) how sacrifice leads to resentment. Which is where I was headed -- to Resentmentville.

But I'd hitch up boots, remember my plan, bite my tongue as best I could, and tell myself I needed to let H do whatever he wanted as he was suffering and I deserved his LBs.

In December I decided I needed to get through the holidays before I could think clearly about what was really going on between H and me. However, I was going to make one change -- and that was to identify, apply, and enforce boundaries. I was at Resentmentville's city limits and if I was ever going to turn around and push that car back toward Recoveryville, I needed to protect myself.

My boundaries created a conflict that we hadn't had in a long time. It was a different conflict that didn't seem to be coming as much from H's pain due to my cheating. This different conflict seemed to generate because I was standing up for myself, H was responding negatively, and I didn't know how to go from there. Sometimes I'd escalate it, sometimes I'd become confused, sometimes I'd back down, sometimes I'd succeed in my enforcement.

My self-analysis mostly because of you MB folks, has helped me see that no matter what H does, no matter how many LBs he chooses to throw my way, I can't respond in kind in any way.

What I can do is POJA to the best of my abilities, starting with not going into it with the idea that I need to get my solution. I had the "How do you feel about," part down. But my response to how he felt about whatever has varied and therefore my true POJA attempts have probably been far less then I was giving myself credit for.

If during a discussion H chooses to be stubborn or dismissive or inconsiderate, while it may withdraw from my L$, that doesn't mean I get to do the same back to him. I have to take the high road, so to speak, so that when that discussion is over, I'll know I did right by H and by us, even if he doesn't know it. If later I have nothing in my L$ because of his continued LBs, I'll face that then. But hopefully because of my actions (or inactions), his L$ will fill and he'll want to reciprocate.

And while that's my hope and prayer, it cannot be my expectation. And it's been the expectation part where I realize I have been woefully slow. Rereading "Musings From Mark" was the slap upside the head that I needed here.

I've learned and I know that I can't control others. But I've still carried in my mind the expectations of how I EXPECT H to behave. When he doesn't behave in the manner that to me has seemed so perfectly clear as the right way, I've detoured.

Of the care, protection, honesty, and time formula, I think I've had the care part down and I know I've had the honesty part. The protection part I thought I was doing well with until recently and the UA has been lacking which has been frustrating. But that final expectations piece is where I've been falling short. I thought after a few boundary enforcements, H would understand, we'd learn, and move on. As I've received push back (understandable as my behavior has been different), I've responded randomly and occasionally chaos has ensued.

I can't be random. I need to be consistent in ALL things -- care, protection, honestly, UA, expectations, and my boundaries. I need to be the best, new wife I can possibly be. Every time.

My prayer is that I will be vigilant regardless of what comes my way and I'll do right by H and our family.

Sis,

Just wanted to point out that it does deal with an EA. It's how affairs happen in most cases. The cause of the fog in an affair is the new point of reference being used to judge the marriage.

The movie begins with a husband and wife in Conflict. She quickly moves into Withdrawal due to his Love Busters and then along comes the handsome young doctor, the man of he dreams and fantasies...He seems to be all of the things Caleb is not, a point she very quickly picks up on. He's nice to her, treats her over the top for a work colleague and seems to care about how she thinks and feels. He's meeting her ENs left and right and she is letting him do it with no signs of even considering her marriage any more. He's making so many Love Bank deposits that she clearly is falling in love with him.

Her emotional energy shifts from trying to change Caleb to a fantasy relationship with this guy who it turns out is a serial cheater. Caleb, not getting his own ENs met is ready to throw in the towel even though he knows nothing of Dr OM.

The 40 day Love Dare is in fact a step by step Plan A. Along the way, Caleb discovers that he has begun to value his marriage more than before, when he was neglectful and full of Love Busters. He stops trying to change his wife and begins the work to change himself into the man of her dreams.

It's not until she realizes that it was her husband and not Dr OM that paid for her mother's medical needs that she starts to see that Caleb is really the better choice after all.

The scene that follows and the ending where they renew their vows is a great way to end the movie. What they don't show is the time in between when they had to struggle with daily emotions, her own guilt over almost throwing it all away and Caleb's own self doubt over how he almost lost his marriage through neglect and failing to protect his wife from his own selfish actions.

Sounds just like the stories we read here every single day...

She just stopped the EA before it was discovered by Caleb, that's the only twist to it compared to most...

My favorite scene was the one where Caleb and his buddies are discussing what she and her friends are doing at that very moment...

Her friends almost helped her to end her marriage. One was a man-hater. One was an enabler. One was a "follow your heart" kind of gal. Together they almost had her convinced that she should just go after her own happiness at the expense of her marriage.

Hmmm...That seems to ring a few bells as well...

The first time I saw it I found it to be scary accurate. 6 months closer to D-day, I might have thrown up.

Not so romantic when I describe it, is it?

I get that perspective from being on the other side of the ledger.

Mark

L4 - you and me hun seem to be in the same boat re BHs LBs and comments..what gets me through it is this:

�1 Peter 3: 8-11

8Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble.
9Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.
10For, Whoever would love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech.
11He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it. �


The funny thing is 1 Peter 3: 1 - 7 are verses about how husbands should treat wifes and wifes treat husbands...
so its almost like peter said
verses 1- 7 : this is how you should act
verses 8 - 11: if one of you is NOT behaving like this...this is how the other should respond...

I find myself repeated 8 - 11 to myself over and over and over.

do not return insult for insult or LB for LB..but seek to live in peace...showing only kindness..

I go a get the bible and read this verse when I find myself mentally adding the words "A-HOLE" to the end of my sentences...

________________

BH and I actually watched fireproof before my ONS and I was so fogged out I didnt get the point...after DDAY i watched it and cried - I actually own a copy of love dare...its been more than forty days since I started it..but since day 40 is a vow renewal and we are not there yet...i just start over...today is Day 15 in fact (for like the 7 or 8th time) today...

my favorite scene is when Caleb goes to see the doctor after finding the card from him...thanks him for repairing his hand ...sticks it in his face in the form of a fist and says...you did a real job fixing my hand doc thanks...and if you think your getting my wife...you can try...but I have a head start (showing his wedding band)...

Lastly... (I know I've probably worn you out!)

I haven't seen an answer yet to this question:

If you are in a place where you cannot leave the situation in order to enforce a boundary that is already known to the violator, how do you enforce your boundary?

For example, what if the person has crossed your boundary but you are in a moving car with that person or sitting next to him/her on a plane and the fasten seatbelt sign is on?

Then you have to have a way to enforce the boundary at another time without Love Busting until then.

L4 - i cant remember if your a christian or not...if you are you might want to try "The Excellent Wife" by martha peace...its a bible study book that has been recommended to me by several women...two are WWs and one is a BW and yet another has a marriage where infidelity has not occured by H is completely in withdrawal and she struggles to love him...All say that its a great study...

They all are Torn Asunder fans to so I might add a ditto to marks comment on that one.

By "until then" do you mean that it's okay to LB at "another time?"

And I am joking. The ridiculousness of how I read that sentence the first time made me smile. As ridiculous as possible considering the source.

That can be difficult when you are trapped in a car ..... so until that 'another time' comes, try to relax and stay calm, shut out the hurtful words, keep that adrenaline down.
Adrenaline can be lighter fluid for lovebusting.

I have a question .... what if the kids happen to be in the car and are witnessing dad lovebusting mom ???

I'm off to catch up on this thread, if this has been covered already .... sorry!

okay, I'm caught up.

I've not read FILSIL yet, so I can't comment on that one.
I would say Love Buster's.
That seems to the biggest hurdle right now, and EN's cannot effectively be met until
the lovebusting is under at least, some control.

Actually, FILSIL might be a good choice, suggest that he start with the chapter on LB's.
Except if FILSIL does not explain love busters to the extent that Love Busters book does, he won't get the full descriptions of the LB's, especially AO's and DJ's.

Understand?

One of the things as a BS, reading Love Busters, I felt validated for my hurt since Dr. Harley explained so well how IB and Dishonesty are so devastating to a M.
I was also validated that an A is not the BS's fault.
These are two things that Mr. L4 may also be struggling with. I got that sense with some of what he said, with what you posted.

I've just convinced myself that I vote for Love Busters.

btw L4, I think it's fabulous that he took any interest in reading a M book, that is huge for him. I hoped you hugged him, kissed him, hugged him, kissed him ..... lol

Something else came to mind and it's just a thought.

If that's the book that Mr. L4 had agreed to, then that's one you should get for him.

Would it not be a DJ and IB, to assume that another book would be better for him???

I'm not mentioning this cuz I like that book, if it had been another book, I'd feel the same way about it.

L4,

As depressing and hopeless as I know it feels like at times.

Those are really good posts.

I don't know if my experience was normal, but, what you say about you and your H is normal if it is. You still have a very big mountain to climb. But, it can be climbed.

You have a way with people L4. You have a gift. Your H sees this and values it. He wants what you give those people. He feels he gets and has gotten the other L4 that no one else really knows about.

Safety. And more safety.

Regarding the book. I'd buy them all. Let him choose. It will tell you something about his needs.

I think he was wise not to choose the book where you had made highlights. I don't think he is ready to see what you have highlighted especially when he thinks it is pointed to him. He needs to see it but you want him to get on board first.

All the pain. It really does go away. It really does get better but it is a rocky rocky road. And, it has really made me be a better person. My W says that about herself as well.

I wish you, your H, and your family the best.

I think it is FABULOUS that he wants to read this, L4. And I agree about the higlight stuff. I bough a book called Captivating while I was feeling particularly unloveable pre_A. I underlined a lot of things and stuff. Then without thinking I gave it to MIL. Yikes!

LB'ing in front of kids is a toughie. If I let my tongue loose on H, I always apologize to the kids and tell them why it was not acceptable. Thankfully this doesn't happen much. H is not a yell kind of guy, and if the kids are in the room and he's upset, his mode is to usually just not talk at all. He did make a remark last week that was negative about me to the kids, but he apologized. I know apologizing after the fact isn't as beneficial as not LB'ing at all in front of them, but it's better than just letting it go.

Honestly, I have to say I have learned a lot from my H over the years. It used to drive me crazy that he sat there quietly considering his words after I asked him a question, but it's not a bad idea. I find myself doing that more the longer we are married, and it prevents a lot of crud.

L4:

Fall in Love, Stay in Love. Its the MB weekend in a book.

I wanted to also comment about tst and his comments about lovebusters.

tst mentioned that you tell your H to get a new job when he complains about his existing job. tst was so right.

Go to your H, tonight, and tell him the following:

"H, I wanted to tell you that I appreciate that you keep going to work, to that job that isn't your favorite, and supporting me and the family. Sometimes, in the past, I may have stated that you had to "find another job that made you happy", or "improve your skills and get another job". I'm sorry I ever said that. Because of our family circumstances, you can't just quit, and you have worked hard and well for many years. Thank you."

And leave it at that.

Well, you can give him a hug and a kiss, as well.

LG

If you'll permit me to be pedantic, if didn't "deal" with the EA at all - sure she was in an EA (and had been for a while I believe) but the consequences of that were NEVER explored.

We watched Fireproof maybe... Two months ago? H didn't take to it. He said he understood what it was trying to say but got stuck on what he thought was weak acting and he didn't think the Christian basis within it was necessary.

You bring up a good point, BK. I don't remember... Did the wife quit her job and secure NC with the OM?

Sister -- I am Christian. I'm actually taking part in an online Bible study with others and I'm getting much from it. (Though it's self-paced and I'll admit I'm farther behind then I'd like to be.)

LG -- I do tell H how grateful I am that he provides as he does for our family. Someone here long ago (perhaps it was you?) told me that a man needs Admiration and that his job is a big part of his identity. So recognizing his work is an important EN.

Valentine's Day last year when I wrote all of those love messages on hearts and placed them around the house (thank you again, E, for the idea), one was specifically about how I appreciate how hard he works. I reinforce this message every now and then, accompanied sometimes by hugs.

I don't tell him to get a new job as often as I used to, but even just the three or four times that I've brought it up in the last year, I can see now how those are LBs. I had never thought of it like that before tst brought it to my attention.

Lately (as recently as yesterday), H is telling me to get a new job -- a full-time job with benefits. H doesn't like that I have two part-time jobs and no benes. He's concerned that he's going to get laid-off any day and he's worried we won't be insured and will have to spend all of our savings to be covered and we'll lose our house and be poor... Yesterday I presented him with an idea of setting up a written, fully agreed upon budget -- a month-to-month-spell-out-all-spending-and-savings budget to hold us more accountable. He agreed to the idea. Now it's a matter of doing it.

TJD -- Thank you.

Speaking of Valentine's Day, I was going through this thread looking for a particular post and re-read my post V-Day '09 thoughts. That was such a fantastic night and it got me to thinking about what to do this year.

I'm trying hard to get down in weight so I can wear this really nice (dare I say hot?) red dress that H bought me and I've never worn. But I need ideas about what to do. V-day is on a Sunday so it'll be harder to get a late-night sitter.

Last year I did the love notes throughout the house, made breakfast, bought clothes for the night out and others for when we got back in, we stopped at a "couples" store on the way to dinner to buy some "stuff", took him to one of his favorite blues clubs, then finished the night at home in the bedroom with dessert.

Finally, I just handed FILSIL to H. I told him that I know he said that, upon my suggestion, he might consider reading LB, but I have another book that has a chapter on LBs and also talks about other needs and behaviors that are important within a M. I said I was more then happy to get him LB too if he still wanted to read it. I told him FILSIL is shorter then LB to which he nodded seeming approval. He took it from my hand and set it on the table next to him.

Thanks, everyone, for the other book suggestions as well. I've made note and will consider them after I see H's reaction to FILSIL. He said "maybe" to reading it and I don't want to get ahead of him.

I ask the same: Or Mom LB-ing Dad?

We're seeing Up tonight at our church's family movie night. Tomorrow errands, a church work party, the kids both have birthday parties, then hopefully a night at home. We finally got a 4th controller for our Wii so maybe we can get some kick-butt family Mario cart game action in or fire up the new Beatles Rock Band I got H for Christmas. I'm also hoping that after we'll have adult time.

You will LOVE LOVE "Up." Bring a tissue though - that's all I'm sayin'.

I got Rock Band for x-mas too, and watching my H concentrate so seriously when he plays drums is a hoot. I just look like a spaz - I'd rather sing.