Opt,

Would you negotiate with a falling down drunk???

Would you negotiate with a terriorist??

If the answer is yes, then by all means keep up what you are doing ( and pray hourly that you live to tell about it).....

If the answer is no, the quit trying. You are spinning your wheels.....

"the only thing needed for evil to prevail is for a good man to do nothing"....Edmund Burke

not2fun

lol, good, Not2.
I played pool with my buds last night (and lost :)) and tonight taking the kids skating and to the mall. Did some more banking stuff today to get organized (applied for a credit card...), and found out more about D/Mediation. Talked to my DS13's guidance counsellor. Keeping busy and trying to stay focused.

sleeping okay and trying to eat healthy.

thanks for asking - gotta run. I'll catch up on here later.

Opt

Opt,

The BIGGEST problem I see in you sitch right now is that you are operating without a PLAN. The best thing about MB and what Dr. H is very big on is a PLANS.

You were in Plan A, now deciding whether or not you want to go to Plan D, and during this you are in a state of confusion.

And in this place of confusion you are ENABLING you wife's bad behavior. Which is WHY you should be in Plan B NOW.

You don't have to file for a divorce to be in Plan B. You don't even have to decide to divorce while in Plan B. You can educate yourself all about divorces/mediation DURING the Plan B.

You have fulfilled Plan A. Move to Plan B.

As long as you "talk" to her, she is filling your head with her yuckiness. It is disheartening to watch. It is disheartening to see her flaunt her horrendous, disrespectful, and nasty decisions in your face. And the more she does this, the more you run the risk of Love Busting and muddying your chances in court. BS's do themselves the dishonor of staying in this state.

Plan B......

1. Write the letter....here's a link to the conditions that SexyMamaBear gave to TST in her letter. NOW, it is good to note, that her conditions were there to so TST could return to the marriage home in order for them to see IF they could repair thier marriage. There was no guarentee that the marriage would be repaired (thankful they have...). If your WW would decide to do the hard work of recovery, you could participate with the understanding that IT MAY NOT WORK. The damage could be far too great. BUT, then again, maybe not

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=158659&Number=2308548#Post2308548


These requirements are some of the highest requirements I've ever seen. The bar would be set high, high enough that IF she were to want to do them, they may give you what you need to attempt a reconcilliation.

But even if you don't want to do this, even if you are set on going to Plan D (which no one here could truly blame you if you did....), then Plan B is still the route to go. If order to protect you, your sanity, your children (from the fall-out), and even your WW, which to me is the hallmark of a good man.....

not2fun

ps....a good friend of mine, who is a paralegal, let me know that mediation is NOT good for someone who is protecting themselves. That is me.....is "suspect" that may be you. I get the sense that if you were to proceed in this route, that your own guilt (whether it is misplaced or not), would give your WW more than she deserves. She is also of the "entitled" mind, meaning she would not rest until she got everything she thinks she is "entitled" to....which in every waywards mind is EVERYTHING.....

NotTooFunn,
I want you to know I am thoughtfully considering everything in the above post.

I just read this 2 day old post because I had to "get away from it" for a couple of days. I've really been focussing on my kids and myself. I have been reflecting heavily on the history of our marriage and the prospects for the future of my children and family.

I'll have a response and fill you in as I go through some processes in teh next few days. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your concern, care, and input.

Suffice it to say that at this point I (believe it or not) have the upper hand as I see it. I will NOT be taken advantage of as I have NO guilt about anything that has transpired in the past several months. I have good folks in my corner and am getting good counsel (including information from here).

sad, but resolved to make the best of a bad situation.

opt

PS - I just read the Conditions for Coming Home Letter. Amazingly identical to the list I came up with on my own. My bar is actually a little higher.

Bump- where are you, opt?

Hey Linus and Friends!
Sorry I've been "away."
It's been a real busy time meeting with lawyers and bankers and clinicians and wayward wife, and all the while trying to hold onto my job as concentration is difficult to maintain.

Short update:
3rd mediation meeting under our belt. I've been advised by my own attorney throughout the process, but ww doesn't have a lawyer and doesn't know I do.
Have switched over all my bank accounts auto deposits, auto pays, etc. -the only money ww has is what I give her or what she makes on her own.
Have been pre-approved for a mortgage loan to buy out ww's equity in the home - I'm staying there if things continue to go as planned.
Have been executing a modified "180" and am "moving on" with my life. Taking the kids out, minding my own business, and hanging with friends after work (still no drinking, just dinner and pool - no women either).

Mediation:
Custody: 50/50 joint legal and physical [schedule me 3 days, her 4, then me 4, her 3 on a biweekly rotation; I always get Friday which I wanted due to ww's questionable moral code and my belief that Fri night is dangerous for teenagers- I want them under my watch that night]
Child support: mutually arrived at a figure of 250/wk (court ordered number was 392).
Assets split 50/50 from IRA's to personal affects in the home - no real issues (she got my 11 year old truck, but I have more in my retirement acct's so it washed). [the 10k was offset by my low offer on the equity and a couple of other things]
WW found a condo and her offer was accepted - pre-approved for loan; it's a nice 3 BR in the middle of town so my kids will always be close by.

I have lots of emotions and really hate the thought that I'm actually going along with ww's devious plan which has been essentially in place for a year to the best of my reconning. I hate that I'm not strong enough to fight more and possibly "save" the M. I hate that I don't feel strongly enough that the M is worth saving (although I like that it took me traveling to hell and back to realize it). I really hate that a dishonest unrepentant adulterer is raising my kids alone 50% of the time and there's practically a court order saying you can't disparage your former wife to the kids (I'll have to be stealthy about educating them regarding the damage adultery does to families - I've already started with my son using myself as an example; also showing him it's okay to admit when you've made a terrible mistake). I HATE that I'm too afraid of ww and her Daddy's money to make any major moves like booting her out in a plan B execution - if I pi$$ her off before the judge signs our agreement, she could easily change her mind about the 250 and go for the 392 which would bankrupt me; not to mention, so far FIL is staying out of the process and I want to keep it that way - he could (and would) bury me for sport.

Anticipate 8 weeks for a court date. Then it's a new life for better or worser.
opt

Wow Opt, a lot has changed since I left. Unfortunately I think I am following a similar path.

I applaud your efforts to protect your children and yourself. I'm sorry your Plan A efforts didn't have better results. Guess that's why they say only 15% of Plan A alone works.

Did you ever go full Plan B with a letter and everything?

Somehow, I have the feeling that both Opt and SoL will be better off without their WWs. I know that's awful to say, but I really do believe it.

Good luck and God Bless to both of you guys.

Thanks Linus.
I haven't even checked my own thread in a few days. I guess that says something.

I just caught up on Limbo. I'm so bummed.

Anyway, I think ultimately you're right about me Linus; it's kinda awful to admit it.
I'm moving on and am quite positive things are going to be better for me in the long run. Actually I think that part will be fairly straightforward. Making sure things are better for my kids is the challenge I wish I didn't have to face; but since I do, it's one I plan to meet with full attention and effort (and of course have already started).

opt

Last night I closed on a re-finance of my house. I now am sole owner/deed holder. I 'bought' ww's equity. Everything going as planned (although a little slower due to a couple of legal hurdles).

We've remained totally civil. It's almost like knowing we aren't really married anymore makes it easier to be friends (I guess that is a testament to how f'd up our marriage really was...). Of course, I'm still extremely wary and don't trust her words but at some point it seems as though she became acutely aware of how much she hurt me and is now trying to give me some dignity, (e.g. by not spending any time with OM#2, and basically being around and cooperating with all the proceedings.)

I have 3 good reasons not to rock the boat right now. One is 13 and one is 8. The third is to not provoke her into back-peddling on the Separation agreement which was filed with the state on Feb 22. It states her desire to only accept $250/wk instead of the state mandated $392. My lawyer feels the court might even reject this agreement depending on which judge we get. Anything over $250 and I probably have to sell the house; a main reason I want to keep it is for the kids and their sense of stability (so really I guess I only have 2 reasons to not rock the boat). Budgets are going to be razor thin in about 6 weeks.

WW will close on her condo end of the month, move out shortly thereafter. We might wind up with a court date of, say April 15 -- our anniversary. Wouldn't that be a cruel hoax?

I woke up with the sense of failure. That in a couple short months my kids won't know the feeling of waking up in a house with two of their own parents in it. This is NOT what I wanted for my kids.

This is NOT what any of us Bs's wanted. I am sorry for you and for your boys.

Can I ask you to do one thing though? It bugs me in your sig line that it says, "Status: Failure, Plan D" Could you change that to "Status: TRIED, Plan D"? I don't think you FAILED at all. You only FAIL when you FAIL TO TRY. You TRIED and it didn't work. Speaking of work, I gotta go. Take care.

Thanks Scotland. I needed that encouragement.
Something I've been struggling with since the "transition": In many ways I feel like I've failed the whole MB community. You, ML, NTF, Limb, Linus, and so many others who followed my thread and encouraged me along the way; by me not having the strength to go to Plan B I feel like I let people down. I just hope everyone understands I really do believe in the MB principles; they're what have helped me remain sane and retain order through a chaos. They've helped me realize my M was never really based on the kind of philosophy I wanted and trying to rebuild would be like putting a new house on the beach (I suppose it could be done but I have zero faith ww or I could really dedicate the type of colossal energy & effort it would take).

I'll update my sig line. You're right.

~opt

Opt- like I have been recently told, you did not let anyone down. Your WW did. You have done an excellent job in following these principles. You are now doing an excellent job of moving forward for your kids and yourself.

Nobody knows what tomorrow will bring. All we can do is try to make the best decision possible with the situation we are currently in. One of the best things about this MB program is the way it alleviates the second guessing if it doesn't work. You KNOW you have done all you can and can look your kids in the eyes. You KNOW where the blame truly lies.

((((Opt)))),

While I can't speak for the entire community, you CERTAINLY haven't let me down. Please do not worry about that during your time of turmoil. Look, this was NOT your WW's first affair. You have an OC whom you have welcome and raised as if he were your own. THAT takes a lot of courage and strength, something I'm not sure I would have the strength to do. So you have done this for YEARS and she goes out and has another affair???...And you feel guilty for letting us down???...

YOu TRIED again, to save your marriage. You came here and asked for help. Many couldn't even UNDERSTAND why you would want to travel this road again. BUT for some of us, you wanting to try is all we needed to hear to help you with what we know. And you DID it. And did it exceedingly well.

The fact that you found out about OM #2 and decided to walk away is NOT the definition of failure. In Mel's famous words, sometimes the definition of success IS divorce.

My only hope for you is that YOU learned all you needed about love, marriage, and how to be the best person that you can be. I hope you CONTINUE in your learning as you heal through the new trauma of divorce. My only advice at this point is that you WAIT to begin a new relationship with any woman. You are not ready yet. Heal from this mess, learn all you can, mourn your loss and pain, and THEN after much time, should you consider trying out the world of dating.......

You aren't the first one to come here wanting to save their marriage and ended up divorced. Take a look at Chailovers, SilentLucidity, Chrisner, DancingMachine, and Believer.......I do not know of one VET on here that considers them failures. Their stories on person healing are some of the best stories around here. I pray that you will travel that same path.....oh, and FWIW, 4 of those people helped ME in my journey when H was in his affair. So just because you didn't save your marriage doesn't mean you can't help others around here........

And as far an not going into Plan B, well, that's okay too. I think you KNEW on the last Dday, that you were done. I could sense it in your posts. I still think that that is the way to go even while proceeding with Plan D, but hey, that's me.

Oh, and one more thing, even with ALL I know about MB, even with all I KNOW on how to make a marriage work, even with all I KNOW on how to break up an affair (and being successful at it...), IF my H were to EVER have another affair of ANY KIND, there will be NO Plan A, NO Plan B, it will be straight to Plan D......So after all you have done, I do not blame you one bit for going forward with this.......

Opt and kiddo's

This is NOT your failure. This is on WW. Let her carry that burden......

not2fun

Well done, N2F. Couldn't have said it any better. Couldn't agree more.......

Plan D does NOT mean failure. It also does not mean the end of growth, wisdom and determination. You may not realize it, Opt, but you have excelled greatly in all three areas. Don't lose sight of that fact. I'm sure it will pay significant dividends in the future.

TB

Reading Dr. Harley's "When To Call It Quits" newsletter is often an inspiration in these types of situations.

Well, you guys are awesome! Thanks so much.


Dontchu worry about this. This whole thing has set in front of me a path of rediscovery. I wasn't a bad dude before but I had plenty of short-comings; many of which were simply eradicated with the trauma through tremendous introspection. I don't want to be that person again and so far the changes I've made have actually made my life entirely more enjoyable. Not the least of which is the reconnection with my faith in God.

I have every intention of learning as much as I can about MB principles. I want to have a healthy marriage someday and I really believe this is a good place to start. --But right now I focus on getting through the D while subjecting the kids to as little pain as possible.

Me and ww went to BJ's together, dropping D8 at friends on the way. She was also with us at the closing the other night. Seeing us together and cooperating is very healthy for her and mitigates the trauma. It'll break my heart when we finally separate; that will be hard for both kids. But ww isn't gouging me in the D (so far at least, I'm very mindful), and she has pretty much cut off contact with PotentialOM#2. OM#1 is history as far as I can tell. I feel like she's at least trying to respect my dignity- makes it easier to be civil for the kids and my own well being.


I can't thank you all enough for the encouragement and acceptance. Especially the acceptance. My wife essentially stopped accepting me for who I was. She also refused to entertain the idea of accepting me after making whatever changes I could for her, which I would have been happy to do. Instead she is only accepting the concept of not being married to me anymore. Knowing I'm accepted here (and in other places in my life) is extremely important.

Optimism

You know, I've been searching the site for this a few times in the last weeks. It doesn't pop up with any searches I can come up with although I have seen it (a long time ago).

I hate to be a pain, but if anyone could link it I would much appreciate that.

opt

Definitely waiting to begin a new relationship. Definitely waiting. Totally see that I'm not ready, and won't be for some time. In fact I have several pretty substantial projects planned to start the day her stuff is out of here. Projects to keep me busy and physically active and mentally occupied. [place to start: bedroom, lol]

I also don't really see how one could develop much of a relationship with only 3 and a half days/week at their disposal. When the kids are with me, they will be my 100% focus. It will be a LONG, LONG time before I bring another woman into that situation, and she'll be pretty special before she gets consideration.

However, I like the company of a woman, what can I say? I wouldn't do anything before the court date. But are you saying dinner, lunch, a movie, concert, etc is out of the question? I'll respect that if you do, but keep in mind I haven't been with a woman who likes me in a year. That's going to be hard to walk away from if the opportunity arises and I suspect it will given some of the comments people have made.

Not something I've spent a lot of time thinking about, but I think it's worth discussing now so I'm prepared for it. Maybe I should stick with group situations for a while - I was thinking of taking a class in something this summer.

[funny sidenote: I NEVER (even when I was having my A 8 yrs ago) used to dream about any woman but my wife. If I did things would fall apart in the dream - it was like I was cheating and couldn't do it; even subconsciously. That changed about a month ago. Weird]



That's encouraging, thanks N2F. I'll check out these stories when I can. And if I can help folks in the future, you know I will. I believe in giving back. I also believe in the power of teaching as a path to learning.

~Opt

not2fun spoke for a lot of us with his post. You let no one down, my friend. In fact, you were - and still are - a tremendous help to me in dealing with my own situation. Don't ever forget that, my friend, because I won't.

You are heading for a better life for you and your boys. I look forward to staying in touch through these boards for a long time.

Linus