Okay, not sure what happens next. I guess I�ll check out the divorce boards and get some more advice from there.

WW giddy. It�s like she totally got what she wanted. Unbelievable how manipulative some people can be. And what a ploy: she knew the �friendship� thing would break me eventually, now she gets to walk away telling everybody and herself that I was �overbearing, controlling, and making �unreasonable demands� on her.� She didn�t initiate the D so, she gets to look like the good guy.

The whole thing makes me extra sick, because I have often wondered if she actually manipulated me into marrying her in the first place. (Long backstory there, but suffice it to say I have often wondered about it). God knows I spent 15 years making her needs more important than mine (at least slightly�); I don�t mind that, that�s the kind of person I am. Was. I really didn�t know how to pursue having my own needs met. I feel I now have a better handle on how to make my needs known, and how to investigate and meet a partner's needs, etc.

I�ve always tried to make the best of the situation, knowing my needs were not being met. Even before I knew about EN�s and LB�s and MB, I knew there was plenty missing in the R. But you press on for the kids and to make good on the commitment you made. You do it without a roadmap and you do it the best you can and you never think of bailing because it�s too important to keep the family unit for the kids. Funny thing, we now have the roadmap but w is now on a different course, in a different world.

Today I have animosity like I haven�t felt in years for anyone. I suppose that�s normal. But it�s probably not the best emotion to allow at this stage. This is a crucial time and I need to handle it correctly as decisions made now will be with me and my children for a long time.

She wants to do �mediation.� I hardly know what that is. I�m tempted to look at it because there might be less of an opportunity for some hot-shot lawyer to shake some sense into her. She�s foggy and stupid and I�d really like to try to take advantage of that right now.

Thanks everyone for the support and encouragement, and advice.

Its funny how the (((opt))) really feels like a hug when you need it!


opt

I'm so sorry.

>They just about laughed in her face.


Your family rocks.

((((Opt)))),

I'm so sorry.....I don't have time to get into it at the moment but I still think you should be Plan B'ing her sorry butt right now. It will benefit YOU.....there are others on here who did Plan B while doing a divorce. It saves your sanity!!!!

You are a good man......and you will take the knowledege you learned here and be a better partner one day for it.....



not2fun

Opt, I really feel your pain here. I still am not entirely sure why WXH married me in the first place and there's a long backstory to that too. You will spend a lot of time attempting to dicsect your entire relationship with this woman, unfortunately. It does get better with time - everybody says that I know but it's true.
Yep. Very, very true. I'm glad you see this as it will serve you well.
What she wants is a quick and "amicable" divorce where she gets everything. There is no such thing as an amicable divorce so don't be fooled into thinking it can happen. Divorce is ugly no matter how you slice it. Knowing this, and knowing your decisions are crucial will help you make the best ones. It's not about taking advantage of HER, it's about preventing her from taking advantage of YOU! She is STILL a wayward. That didn't change because Plan D is in progress. This means that she will still feel entitled to everything and she will lie to get it. Be very aware of this. Don't believe anything she says and don't give her the benefit of the doubt that she won't go for the jugular.

Another (((opt))) for you!

Hey thanx N2F. I know you're getting back to me, but until then if anyone has any quick tips on how to get into a Plan B type thing (for my own sanity) while the little liar is still in the house, that would be helpful.
She's called me twice today, I don't answer. I just don't even want to hear her voice. I didn't say goodbye to her this am. She repulses me.
I'm moving on - using "the 180" if people are familiar with that. but how to handle the live-in demon is really a question at this time.

opt

Thanks Tabby for pointing that out. You're so right. I guess during the conversation she had yesterday with my sister she has a real fantasy about D (like they all do). I'll talk to her about mediation without reactions, just as a sort of "recon" mission.

"know thy enemy"

She hasn't spoken to my sister in months and months. It's like she was trying to influence the situation by spewing a bunch of crap about "amicable divorce" and "I'll work part-time to help him out" (huh?). She told my family I was "unstable" - we've been joking about it since. Poor stupid wayward. My sister would step in front of a moving train for me. (and me for her)

opt

I'm thinking of implementing a little Plan Foxxy-Cagey.

This isn't my idea but I was advised by a trusted older friend who has seen this D situation many times and usual has pretty good insight.

He said to play real cool around the house. Play into her hand (fog) by giving the impression that I'm "on her side" with all this amicable divorce thing. Of course, nothing would be signed until reviewed by MY attorney (which she doesn't need to know I have....).

She's talking about going directly to court with papers printed off the internet

after working on them together to come to a reasonable agreement that benefits the kids. [Note: this is exactly how OM#2 did it - presumably due to lack of money]

Anyway, he said 'swallow your pride for now and act nicey nicey to lure her into thinking you're looking out for her best interest.' Who knows, she might even be persuaded to go find a nice little apartment for herself and leave me with primary custody.

Has anyone had any luck using the ww fog against their opponent??

opt

I don't like it. Plus you can plan on playing it cool but you can get swept up in the emotions and then that goes out the window. Too much potential to backfire IMO.

opt:

I'm going through a very amicable D from my WW right now, so yes, it is possible. HOWEVER, I was willing to compromise and that's what made it amicable. And we are using a mediator, which helped a bit.

Try your very best to avoid the lawyer route. If you go that route you will end up with three things:
- No money
- An extremely angry and bitter xWW
- Kids who will be scarred from the experience

If you can work it out between you two, do it. Keep in mind that you and your WW are likely going to be attached to the hip for the next 10 years until DD leaves the nest. That's a long time and a lot of decisions that will need to be made for the sake of the kids.

Figure out what your demands are. What are the deal breakers? What can you live without? What are you willing to give up? This is the time to throw emotion out the window and look at it from a strategic viewpoint - not that you are going to get everything, but how can you minimize the pain of the process.

For me, the overriding factor in every decision was minimizing the harm to my children. I imagine that will be yours as well.

Good luck.

Adding my vote to the "not a good idea" re: your friend's divorce idea. It sounds like it will backfire.

I also was able to go through a mediator with my XWW. It was definitely the way to go.

I was able to use my diplomatic skills and some inner strength to get what I wanted while making it smooth for both parties.

My XW also had the "divorce fantasy" - I think it's typical for WWs. Let her harbor her fantasy - YOU know the truth and wouldn't be able to argue against her anyway. Let the story play out.

Remember that living well is the best revenge. Her life will self-destruct until she hits bottom. My XW has lost almost all of her friendships, and even the support of her (enabling) grandmother. I have done NOTHING to exacerbate this - in fact I go out of my way to not bring her up around any mutual friends, or make them feel like they have to take sides in any way. This has all happened because of HER. (BTW my college-educated, professional XW is now pregnant with a BF who has a minimum-wage job and has two other children from two other women! WOW!)

Do not succumb to the desire to "screw her over". You will come out the winner eventually if you just focus on doing the right thing.

Good luck with the D.

Opt,

For the love of GOD, please stop listening to this woman.....

There is no such thing as an "amicable" divorce. It's a misnomer.


This is very BAD advice. Because...

1. you are going to wind up with no money anyways......divorce is expensive no matter which way you slice it
2. who the he77 cares??....
3. the kids will be scarred no MATTER WHAT.....it is fool-hearty to think otherwise.

By doing all the indarkness has said, you will sacrifice all of the above AND your own self-respect.

Now, I am not saying that you need to "screw over" your wife. What I am saying is that you need a lawyer who will protect YOU and your best interests, and those of your kids.

If you roll over and do things "her" way, she will roll over you in mediation......

You need to go to Plan B. Hire that lawyer (BEG, BORROW, STEAL the rest of the money if needed.....I would rather swallow my pride to ask for help from those that love me than to swallow it for a WW...or WH, in my case....Pack up her belongings, write that Plan B letter, put it all on the porch and change the locks. She's got $10,000, she isn't broke or destitute.

Arrange for an intermidery....your sister perhaps...

Hire that lawyer immediately, file, seeking full custody......and STAY dark....

not2fun

YES, you need a lawyer!

And make sure you get half of that $10,000 back in any settlement!

It just doesn't seem legal to kick my wife out of her house. I know other people have done it - I read all the threads here. It just seems like most other WS's are, to some extent, willing to go.

I'm going to hire the lawyer, regardless. I was just trying to think of a way to use her current state of euphoria to my advantage.

For the record, I am really not trying to rush anything here. Not that I want it to drag out, but I really, really, really feel it's crucially important to gather as much information about the upcoming process as possible before I sign ANYTHING.

N2F. Tell me again what the advantage of booting my ww is? Is it just so I don't have to be reminded of the pain she put me through? Retain my self-respect? The plan B's I've read about are aimed at getting the wayward to turn around (Scot, John&Sue in SAA, etc.).

This is all happening very fast and gosh, I'm just getting my head around the idea of being in a house without my kids there under my protection for 4 nights/week (if I'm lucky).

opt

I am only a little over a month into Plan B. I would like to tell you some great things about it, but all I can really say is that it is really a lot less stressful. I am not in the same sitch as you, as I have my kids with me every night. My WH only sees the kids 6 days a month for 9.5 hours a day(only while I am at work on the weekends).

Plan B(as far as I understand it so far) is for ME. I am focusing on myself and making myself feel better and for the most part I am. I ABSOLUTELY miss my WH terribly. I have removed myself from the emotional abuse the affair was causing me. I still react to things that happen(like his forgetting what day our son's bday is) but it isn't daily like it was before Plan B.

Before Plan B, my days and nights were spent snooping, Planning and worrying. Now my days and nights are spent adjusting to my new life and Planning for a better me. Don't get me wrong, I think of my WH OFTEN. I dream of him every night and that is hard. I am actually able to sleep, eat and even LAUGH. The pre-A me is returning slowly only I seem better. I am focusing on me and it feels good.

The night before I went in to Plan B I was a wreck. I didn't want to do it. I thought about all of the good things I would be losing. I forgot about all of the bad things I would be losing too. I know that you are in a Plan B/D, which is a different place than where I am right now, but I thought that maybe you could see the advantages of going into Plan B. I hope I helped a bit

So, just as a little update. And maybe to get some feedback.

First, I ignored 4 calls. Then I finally called back around 3 and acted civil. When I got home I went directly to DS13's room to play xbox with him. I didn't eat the meal ww offered me. I'm not sure if it's that I can't eat her food, or that I can't take her offerings. We had to arrange some rides to kids activities and I was very civil with the logistics; then went to play pool at 7pm. I hated being away from my kids tonight, knowing that in a short while it won't even be an option for a certain percentage of the time.

WW wanted to talk about the mediation route tonight. Just a few things she found out. I'm SO confused about the process. I have a master's degree, but this process seems completely unfathomable to me; I guess it's just a mental block. I guess it's why I have to hire a lawyer. April 1 2009 divorce seemed like the last thing in the world I would ever have to think about.

Anyway, we got to talking about mediation and some options. She said she wanted to do it in such a way as to make me as "minimally mad" as possible. FOG or GUILT???? Of course I don't believe a word she says since she's a lying wayward, but she did say those words and I don't think she's devious enough to say it without at least thinking she means it.
She actually said she would leave the decision to me about buying out her half of the equity in the home. (realty people will have an estimate on the value early next week).

I think I can afford the house and I'd really be happy to be able to stay here with the kids, even if they're only here half the time. I love this house. It would also be a moral victory in many ways.

Anyway, she started crying when talking about custody options. I asked why she was crying and she said because DS13 said "I'll be okay as long as there's someone here when I get home." Well, evidently her Daddy gave her some bad news today - he isn't planning on financing her through this. His quote "well, I guess you're going to have to take the college degree and go get yourself a job."
Pretty sick, because I really think deep down she was actually crying because she might have to go work FT for the first time in 20 years.
I sat there and watched her cry. Indifferent to it. I felt like saying something. "you can choose your actions but not the consequences" "you made your bed..."
But then I thought 'what's the point?' I'm going to try to make this a teachable moment?!
I couldn't care less what she learns and what she doesn't.
The list of conditions she would have to meet for me to consider taking her back right now is so long that having sympathy or looking for a break in the fog would be completely pointless.

I'm still just not sure how I'm supposed to act around her. I separated her clothes from the laundry and washed everything else. I don't say "good morning," "good night," or goodbye," or "hello". Should I be? I don't want to be mean, I just have no recognizable feelings for her when I see her. I feel like saying anything to her would give the impression that I have anything but disgust for her. When I'm not with her I do have disdain. Sometimes I even picture doing something harmful to her, but I don't think I could ever actually do anything. Is that normal?

In the end, will any particular behavior make a difference? The lawyer I consulted with is a good one. Highly recommended from a credible source.

All this really sucks. I just keep telling my kids I'm doing everything I can to make sure they're safe and happy as possible. I tell them they'll always get the truth from me no matter what. I try not to say anything untoward about ww, but it sure is hard to think of anything good to say. I have said she's a good person at heart and I don't understand her choices lately...what else should I be saying?

thanks for any input, everyone.

opt

Scot! I'm totally honored that you posted in my thread. You are a Rock Star!

I already knew everything in your post because I follow your thread pretty closely, lol. But it is awesome to have you take the time and effort to help me.

I can identify with the ease of not having to snoop. I would always got really nervous, even if nobody was in the house. Going through email, I was just sure she was going to like "appear" in front of me. very stressful. Plus it's just so time consuming. That's all behind me now, I don't really care what she's doing or not doing. I know enough to know she was lying about a relationship with a "friend" next door. I know she was spending time with him at least 4 days a week in his home. I know that when I asked her multiple times with the utmost respect (NOT demands) to at least limit her interactions with him, she got extremely defensive. Ultimately stating "if you don't like me being friends with POM#2, then you might as well divorce me" [that sounds like more than a friend to me].
There is nobody in my life that I wouldn't walk away from in a heartbeat for my family if my wife wasn't comfortable with my relationship with that person.
Sometimes I wonder if the time she spends with him (without having proof of what they're doing in there) is enough to divorce her over. But then I think of what kind of a person would prioritize a "friendship" over her husband and family? I can't continue to be married to someone like that - I can't let my kids grow up thinking that's normal. She told my sister "I won't let him tell me who my friends are." (which I never did - only said 'your friendship with POM#2 makes me uncomfortable,' then I found out the extent of it was more than she had been reporting before)

Well, anyway, thanks Scot for your input. I check in with you everyday to see if your WH has pulled his head out of the clouds yet. The best decision he ever made in his life was marrying you. I hope he's smart enough to recognize how lucky he is that he might get a second chance.
opt

Well, I am going to have to agree with you on the fact that there is no one that I would walk away from if my WH told me that my friendship with them made him uncomfortable. Over the past 2 years, that is how I felt when he was developing his A with POSOW. They started out as co-workers and then "friends". I don't know EXACTLY when they changed to an affair, but that doesn't seem to matter to me at this point. I did a lot of the wrong things before I found MB but one thing I knew was that their "friendship" was not right. It was a major LB and caused me to LB him very much as well.

I am not proud of the things that I did and said over those past 2 years but I am definitely proud of the things I have done since coming to MB.

As far as feeling like your WW was going to pop out of nowhere, I still have those feelings and WH hasn't even been in this house in 34 days(wow I actually had to figure that out cuz I forgot how many days it was hahahahaha).

So, I wanted to make a comment about what your WW was crying about and talking about. The same kinds of things were being thrown out by my WH before I found MB. He would start to cry about not wanting to lose the children. He would say, "Please don't take my boys away from me. I love my boys." and I would say, "I am not taking the boys anywhere." I didn't know what to do and I would just hold him and try to comfort him. That was the night he chose to stop saying that he loved me because he didn't mean it anymore.(that was a crushing blow)

There were also times when my WH would say, "I don't know if you will be strong enough to do this." I would respond with, "I am." There was even one time when we were talking and I said, "When you leave me." and he started to cry and say, "Don't say it like that." and I said, "Why not, it's what you are doing."

I now know that it was a lot of fog babble.

I am not going to talk you into or out of anything, I just know that you were weighing the choice of Plan B while in Plan D and I just wanted to add a little insight in to that.

I really don't feel like a rock star and maybe I should check my thread more often to see if my WH has come off of his A cloud too(hehehehehehe).

My thoughts are with you.

Opt,

How you holding up??? Are you remembering to eat?? Hows the sleeping going??...Are you still listening to the foghorn????.....

[quote=opt]It just doesn't seem legal to kick my wife out of her house. I know other people have done it - I read all the threads here. It just seems like most other WS's are, to some extent, willing to go.[/opt]

Its not "illegal" either.....By law you can't force her out. BUT if you change the locks the only way she would get back in is if she called the police. They can't arrest you for it, they can only tell you that its her house too and you have to let her in. MOST WS are stupid enough and confused enough ("hey WTF just happened here"...is what is going through their minds) that they DO in fact leave. It's more of a matter of the BS having the guts to do it...(Like Scotty did....... ...). It's not until they get a lawyer involved that they realize they DIDN'T have to go......

[quote=opt]I'm going to hire the lawyer, regardless. I was just trying to think of a way to use her current state of euphoria to my advantage.[/opt]

It would be nice if ya could, but since WS aren't thinking with a full deck, better to get a professional to help you through this. Besides, this is traumatic enough for YOU, that you need someone to help YOU look out for your own best interests. And with WW's whole "I'll-help-him-out-by-getting-a-part-time-job" crappola, she is NOT going to play nice. Unless, of course, you just lie down and give her everything....but even then that's usually not enough.

[quote=opt]N2f Tell me again what the advantage of booting my ww is? Is it just so I don't have to be reminded of the pain she put me through? Retain my self-respect? The plan B's I've read about are aimed at getting the wayward to turn around (Scot, John&Sue in SAA, etc.).[/opt]

You have misunderstood the Plan B. Read up on it. The point of Plan B is for YOU. To get you out of the drama/muck/crap/sewage that WW has brought upon you. It is USUALLY used to protect your LB from her making any WD's, but it can also be used just to get out of her way. She is toxic-poison right now. And the last thing you need at this moment is any more of her crap.....

not2fun

I'm not going to speak to everything you wrote but I can help with some of your questions and even a bit of translation of your WW.
Sadly, you will come to know this process better than you can imagine. Keep in mind, she doesn't know it either.

Both FOG and GUILT actually. The guilt will, however, pass. It's important not to drag this out too long. I can't remember if I've written about this to you or not but my WXH was in an extreme hurry to get out of the M. He badgered, yelled, screamed and threatened me to get the separation agreement written (we have a do-it-yourself system up here). Note- he didn't make one attempt to write it himself. So naturally, I rounded everything up in my favour. He signed, but 3 days later started b*+ching about it. Incidentally, some of this found its way into small claims court and I won - because he signed the bloody thing back in the beginning. If I'd stalled even 3 more days, I would have missed the opportunity.

There really is no point in educating a wayward. They cant/won't learn and it just makes them angrier. That said, allow the consequences of her affair to rest on her shoulders. Don't lift a finger to help her with them.

I would try very hard not to do anything that can be interpreted as mean, spiteful or potentially damaging. It's one thing to separate her laundry so she has to do it herself. But don't do anything that could be remotely construed as abuse of any form (emotional or mental as well).

It's very hard to think of what TO say. Much easier to know what NOT to say. Keep telling your kids the truth. Prepare them as much as possible for each stage of this - when WW leaves the home etc. Make sure they know you love them.