Zelmo: How long has it been since LLL's D-day. A couple of days? A week or two at most? I hardly think her WH qualifies as a long-term, unrepentant wayward.

The guy will not even admit to cheating, let alone show remorse, despite all the evidence she has uncovered. So far, he has not budged.

Most don't.

Have you read Mimi's story yet?

Seems to me like he's acting like a very typical wayward who just got caught. He's textbook. Zelmo, you might know that if you would actually read some of Dr. H's books.

Yes, but isn't it just revolting how they continue to lie and act as if the BS is an idiot. And, they seem to have no concern over the BS's mental health by continuing with this gaslighting business.
I cannot imagine the type of mindset it must take to be willing to hurt someone like this. It is shocking.
Yet, we act as if all this is par for the course with a normal human being.

It's actually not that hard to do.

You just don't think of others. You may not (in cases UNLIKE this) mean to hurt people, you just do because you aren't thinking of others, just yourself.

This just seems quite farfetched to me, karma. I mean can you envision yourself embarking on this course of action without considering its effect on your spouse or kids?
I mean, yes, I am sure I have budged in line or forgotten to tip or something in my life without considering others. But, nothing like this. That is just too hard to imagine for me.

That is why I said in cases UNLIKE this.

The "thinking only of yourself" goes up to the point where you're talking too much to OP.

Then the druggish chemical in your brain (P...E.....I forget what the chemical is called) kicks in. You're now in addiction. Your body builds a tolerance to it, and you need more and more to feel the same effects.

Your spouse moves further from your mind, and you think only of getting your next fix. Your drug of choice needs to be consumed in large quantities now.

Your spouse becomes angry. But you don't care. You NEED that next fix.

Think of the OP as heroin.

I think that's how it goes.

It's just really foreign/nuts to me, and I have been in love before. But, I don't think I allowed it to cloud my judgement like that.
Well, maybe that is not true. I did allow my second wife, a true NPD, to act abusively toward my boys. My judgement was very bad.

That is why you need to examine your picker. Your picker allowed the chemical in your brain to run over your common sense and ignore a plethora of red flags.

You have to train yourself otherwise.

Karma: That's exactly how it works. It's very difficult to explain to someone who has never experienced it.

I never thought I would go through something as gut-wrenching as my H's A. Until I had my own A. It was by far the most difficult thing I have ever gone through in my life. I think I've used this analogy before, but it was like living on a constant pendulum, with my emotions swinging back and forth from one extreme to another on a daily basis. I couldn't eat and lost 15 lbs. (and I was small to begin with, so that was a lot for me). I couldn't sleep. My stomach felt like I had swallowed acid. There were so many times when I wanted to end it, but the longer I went without my "fix" the worse I felt. I contemplated suicide at one point, because it felt at the time like that was the only way to escape from everything that I was feeling. I simply didn't know how to get myself out of the situation I had gotten myself into.

Yes, it was all self-inflicted, but that didn't make it any easier. I had no idea that these feelings were very typical of an A. I had nothing to guide me through the process. I thought I was literally going insane.

There is no excuse for having an A and I realize fully that the BS's on this site will not have much sympathy for the experiences of the WS. That is fine. During my H's A, I didn't have much sympathy for him either. It never really hit home for me that A's hurt both the WS and the BS until I found myself on the other end of the spectrum.

In a perfect world, the WS would immediately realize the pain they have caused the BS and put an end to the A right away and throw themselves completely into the process of R the M and never look back. But then, in a perfect world, A's would never happen in the first place. We don't live in a perfect world.

And the strangest thing is...I've never been married. You all have taught me a lot.

Z man

WS's do not just drop the OP just because they are caught.

Have you not read on MB where the WS most often has to be pushed of the fence?

"So far, after confrontation and discussion, LLL's husband has refused" WOAH, stop the horse's!

What has LLL done to stop the PA?

Nothing. Steadfast refusal to expose.

Only seeking advice from a lawyer. Who has done nothing for LLL to end her WH's PA.

Ending affairs and recovery take time. Time not measured in hours, days, though in months, years.

3L:

I have been reading your thread since you joined. You have gotten some excellent advice so far on this thread, and that advice is all along the spectrum of from "dump the bum" to "start working on your marriage"

This is "MarriageBuilders" so I am in the camp to save your marriage. Not at all costs, there are marriages that shouldn't be saved. Is yours one of them? Only you can decide that.

What you have discovered about this site so far, is that you have a large group of people who will listen, and understand where you are coming from. Sorry, you just can not talk about this with others IRL. Not to the level that you can here, because of the anonymous nature of the forum.

And I am terribly sorry that you have to be here. And I am sorry about the death of your mother.

So why did I finally decide to post? Becasue your going to start getting down to the nitty-gritty about making the choices as to what to do next. And I wanted to discuss with you what type of mindset that your husband might have right now, and something to help you make your choice.

Because I was your husband when I was in my affair. My affair lasted 4.5 years. For the first 3.5 years, my BS never suspected. I was a miserable SOB even before the A, so my BS just thought I was getting worse.... Then she *Knew* about the affair about one year before the end, and never confronted me about it.

I was the number one cakeeating, conflict avoiding WS out there.

What does this mean to you? Let me describe where your WS is right now. Your marraige was a partnership. He did his thing, you did yours, and you both were successful, so you both have accumulated a pile but even after all these years, its not really *joint* its still his and hers. Yes, you described doing things with your WS, many things over the years. But in many cases you two were in pursuit of your own personal goals.

You described your WS attendance at various conferences and meetings spread across the country, with many opportunities to pursue whatever he wanted. So he may have had One Night Stands, or even other women who were part of his collection in the past. You don't know. You didn't care, he kept it discreet if he did, and you maybe thought that he wasn't capable of this.

My BS ALWAYS thought I was capable of it. And then I did.

But you do not know what was going on all those years, and in light of the recent events, it has really made you search for information about the past, and for clues. Was he or wasn't he? I tell you now, that if your not interested in reconciling with your WS, do not worry about it. It will kill you to wonder. If you do reconcile, then you have every right to know that information, and your WS is going to have to give it to you. Otherwise, your marital recovery is doomed.

Your husband may have started this A 8 months ago, or even longer. (You mentioned a hotel receipt for breakfast for two, I can't recall how far back in time) However, your mother fell ill about that time, and you started caring for her. You mention that THAT is when he abandoned you. Understand something, you also abandoned him. Yes, taking care of your mother was what you needed to do. And the marriage vows say sickenss and health, and taking care of your mother falls under that. I'm sure your emotional needs were NOT getting met at that time by your WS. They were getting met by your mother. Your WS, who had the bias in this direction anyway, went to someone else for support. And if he had asked you for support, that he was feeling a little abandoned, I'm sure your response wasn't going to be that pleasant. You are caring for your mother, and your heart is bleeding, and your HUSBAND wants some of your time? What is WRONG with that Bozo? Why isn't HE supporting ME! IF you did not face that actual situation, maybe your WS perceived that would be your response. This in NOT to beat you up. You were responding to the conditions around you, and caring for your mother was the MOST important thing at that time in your life.

And with all the seperatness in your lives, the crossing the bridge to the other person, and supporting each other was never developed in the bad times. Because there weren't any. You have stated that how could you trust this man to take care of you when you are sick? Look how he has abandoned you in your time of need with your mother? What IF something happened to you? Five years ago, in my case? Flamingo KNEW she was going to get nothing from me. Now? She KNOWS I am on her side. It wasn't just the recovery from the A that has shown her this. It was her fall from the horse, the breast cancer scare, and just the daily differnce in the type of person that I have become, versus that awful A person.

Is your wayward husband capable of making this type of transition?

Maybe. His actions right NOW, do not lead me to believe that he can. Why? You have confronted him with enough evidence to harm his career, and at the very least cost him a lot of money and some shame. (You state that he will get high-fives in the office, shame on all of them). On D-Day, it was over for me. I committed to the M and worked MB. Your WS is now cake-eating, and carrying on with your full approval. This A to him, is like him buying another car. He liked it, he has the time and the money, so he bought it. You didn't need to be consulted. It was just a transaction. ANd when he discovers that he didn't buy a new car, but one that had been repainted and new tires only, he will feel that this transaction, as well, must come to an end.

And then he would expect to return to you, because, well, he did it with your approval (at least after you found out....) and he has gotten rid of that car.

So, its time for the consequences of his affair to bear fruit. Many of the actions you should take should be done before you file for divorce, because everything else will be seen as the actions of the vengeful ex-wife. Consulting with your lawyer and finding out what's up was a major good first step. Knowing in your specific circumstances, what could happen, is excellent intelligence to have. Info that your WS hasn't considered yet.

It is recommended that you expose this affair. Personally, as you have described it, your not exposing an affair when you say something to his bosses, your exposing a fraud committed on the university and the government. You have already detailed a number of potential problems with cost-share arrangements and other billing arrangements where his affair has resulted in the illegal use of assets. Your knowledge of THIS information, and not forwarding it to folks who can do something about it, even if they sweep it under the rug, which is a different crime, now becomes your responsibility.

The "friend" in the office that you talked about all this with? Who KNEW that the A was going on, and didn't tell you? She is guilty of the same thing. She had information and didn't tell YOU, although I am sure she has shared your conversation with everyone else in his area. She is guilty of not telling YOU, and your guilty of not telling management of fraudulent activity.

That is why you need to expose. Sure, in many cases, exposing adultery in the workplace is about ending the A, and is needed to help end the A. But when the company dollars are being spent on A, that moves it up. Sure, there is theft of time, and maybe cell phone minutes, in most every A, but in this case, you have Ms HP and Mr 3L carrying on thier A while at conferences and meeting that she probably had no business being at, but he had the Uni pick up the tab. THAT starts to get serious for the Uni. And if it affects federal and state grants? Then even more so. Your OUT of the line of fire if this thing blows up. Because your knowledge is NEW. But everyday, the possible reprecussions to you increase. Because if it does blow up, you may be asked what you knew and when did you know it?

This is not to scare you, or to tar you as the bad person here. Your not. Your the victim. Go back to your attorney. Have your attorney refer you to someone in the firm who may specialize in this area of the law. Maybe, there is a whistleblower bonus for reporting illegal acts. So the Uni pays you for discovering the fraud, and Ms HP and Mr 3L both go to jail, or get probation, whatever. That would be sweet.

Your NOT the vindictive, soon to be ex-wife, or ex-wife then. Your the woman who recognized the heresay, and called them out on it. Too many times, we see things like this, and just go about our business, because it's not our problem. But it is, now.

Maybe you should read some of Mulan's stuff. She says alot about the corporate culture that rewards adultery in the workplace...

You may be able to actually do something about it.

Sorry you have to be here. Sorry that your Mom passed away. Your in the right place to recover your marriage, and if that is not possible, yourself.

LG

I am a big proponent of massive exposure. HoweverLLL's attorney seems to think that holoding the exposure card may provide some advantage in negotiations re the property settlement. The key question that LLL has to answer seems to be whether she wants to stay married to someone who has cheated on her. It's a tough question to answer. But, until she firms up her position on that, I think it best to hold onto the card.

Awesome post LG.

God's Blessings,

Say

I disagree that she has done nothing. She is in the early stages. She has confronted him and that is huge, IMO. Maybe she realizes that staying married to a cheater is not within her capabilities, as the stats show it is not within most folks'. So, she is trying to maximize any advantage the cheating may provide her in a divorce. Nothing wrong with that. Harely says he's bail, as well.

The forum is entitled "surviving an affair". This takes many forms, IMO, not just reconciling.

According to the statistics on this site: http://www.divorcepeers.com/stats31.htm most A's do not lead to D. 64% (according to this site) choose to R their M's. I've seen similar statistics from other sources as well. I believe Dr. H even states that the majority of couples do not choose D after an A.

I've read that about 30% stay together. Seems a lot of the higher % sites are promoting their services for a fee.
often, the stats they site include only those folks who enroll in their programs, thus not including those who decide to D relatively quickly.
By enrolling in the program, the couple demonstrates that they posess a higher motivation for reconciliation than the genereal population.
harely says 15% of the time plan A works and Plan B is even less efffective. So. 30% seems right to me.

Yikes, but 78% of thise who stay together describe the marriage as unhappy or empty. Sounds like a tough life.