Fred! I am just a poster like you and everyone else here! Thank you for your vote of confidence.

schtoop, I don't think that is the most strategic or effective way to end the affair. You can't use it as leverage anyway, because she will likely AGREE to end the affair, but then not do it. Taking her to PR, on the other hand, is a good chance to interfere with the affair and make some great lovebank deposits. [the OM can't take her to PR, but you can] That would interfere with the affair and work in your favor.

In fact, this trip would be a GREAT opportunity to relaunch the romance in your marriage if you could leave your kids at home.

There are much more effective ways to kill the affair, and that is via exposure and confrontation of the OM. Exposure is your most effective tool and it is what Dr Harley calls the "start of recovery."

Thanks a ton, Melody and all.

This has been a tremendous support when I have really no where else to turn. Until I expose, there is literally no one there for me, while she has a couple good friends who know and have even been empowering the affair for her to rely on.

Good advice on the trip, I was doubting myself, but didn't want to cave. Maybe it will be taken as a show of good will.

One thing I do know, I am one of the most easy going people you will ever find and have handled this whole thing with the utmost grace and restraint to this point. BUT, I am not going to facility this affair!!

I am so sorry that you find yourself here, Schtoop. You are getting excellent advice from some of the best MB has to offer. I am far from an expert but I will just add to believe nothing your wife says only her actions and "easy going" spells doormat in affair land.

God's Blessings,

Say

ugh! Any "friend" who enables a friend to have an affair is no "friend." They are enemies of your marriage and will likely hamper the recovery of your marriage. yuck..


Good man! Believe me, there is nothing graceful or dignified about standing by idly while your marriage and family is under assualt from an affair, so I am glad to hear you have made a decision to not facilitate the affair. You have alot to lose if you don't stand up for your family and protect it against this assault. There are ways to do this in a dignified, strategic way that can effectively kill the affair and save your marriage.

In your situation, I would watch and see if contact resumes and make plans to take the trip to PR. I would strongly recommend that you do call the OM's house NOW to see if he has a wife, and if so, expose to her. That should happen regardless of the status of the affair. It is very common for the OM to be married and many affairs are killed dead on the spot by exposing to his wife. His wife has to know about the affair and with 2 ppl watching from both ends, the affair is less likely to resume.

It the affair does not die, I would suggest exposing it in a very strategic way. We can help you make up a list along with talking points. While it is a hard thing to do, it is the most effective tool at ending an affair I have ever seen. Exposure is also very therapeutic to the wayward in that it helps her view her affair in a more realistic light. The more people who know about her affair, the more people to hold her accountable. It is just a GREAT TOOL in every aspect. I would encourage you to read Dr Harley's newsletter on exposure.

Do you have effective spying tools? For example, do you have a keylogger [spectorpro.com, get eblaster] on her computer if she communicates via computer? What about placing GPS and a voice activated recorder on her car? If she has a blackberry type phone, you can install flexispy [flexispy.com] which has a GPS and will send you all text logs and her call logs. Can you have her watched by a PI?

Just checking in here so my thread doesn't fall too far into backpage death.

So far I haven't seen any contact for two days (D-day was 8 days ago). I backed off on pulling the plug on our trip, but said I still wanted to see a NC letter.

The only spying I've done is online viewing of cell phone activity (calls and texts). It's weird, I can figure out that conversation in one of the emotional needs I haven't been meeting, but all of their phone conversations are 1-2 minutes, never longer. What would this mean?

Anyway, and I'm glag Melody is giving a little leeway on this, an that I'm not going nuclear exposure just yet. I haven't really threatened her with it, just said that conventional wisdom dictated that was the next step. Her response was "do what you have to do", (I think she was calling my bluff). I then explained its not something I would do out of spite or something I want to do, just that the affair is the enemy and I'm going to fight it.

Bottom line, if she can find the fortitude to end the affair on her own just a week after D-day (I know, a snowball's chance), I think we can move on and save that painful step. After all, the purpose of exposure is to end it, and if that is accomplished then exposure might not be necessary. However, this is the last chance. One more discovery of contact and I WILL pull the trigger and go nuclear, including the kids.

I would not cancel the trip. You only punish the whole family. And you don't get the WW away from the OM.

""Melody is giving a little leeway on this, an that I'm not going nuclear exposure just yet. I haven't really threatened her with it, just said that conventional wisdom dictated that was the next step. Her response was "do what you have to do""

Never ever mention that you are going to expose.

If you do not expose you will of taught your WW that you have no stomach for the fight and she can still control you, and your words are empty threats. WW will now feel that there will never be consequences for doing the OM.

Now I bet you WW has been already doing damage control spinning her lies so people will not believe you. This is standard WW tactics. Those who tell their story first are more apt to believed.

No reason to cancel the vacation.

No reason to delay or not expose this A.

Every reason to expose now today ASAP.

Repeated for emphasis.

Exposure is the #1 weapon in your arsenal to kill an affair.

If you tell WS you're going to expose, she's going to beat you to the punch and tell everybody you've flipped your twinkie and not to listen to you.

And you will have wasted your opportunity and aided the affair.

Once again:


Never ever mention that you are going to expose.

schtoop, like Fred noted [go Fred!] please do not ever mention exposure or threaten exposure again. Such threats are a huge lovebuster and forewarned is forearmed. You will neutralize the greatest weapon you have by giving her a heads up.

The one exposure that SHOULD NOT WAIT, and is not contingent upon the status of the affair is to the OM's WIFE. You have to find out if he is married and expose to her no matter what. The sooner the better. More often than not, OM are married.

There are so many benefits to exposing to the OMW, if any, that I don't have time to list them. But, you cannot go by the word of liars about his marital status. You have to find out on your own and the quietly, WITH NO WARNING, expose the affair to her.

Please follow my advice and call the OM's house and see if a woman answers. Disguise your # using *67.

And just keep in mind, exposure is a GOOD THING. It is good for ALL, so if your kids need to be told, then tell them regardless of the state of the affair. If there is tension in the home, they do need to be told the truth. Giving them false explanations teaches them DISHIONESTY.

Have you read the Carrot and the Stick of Plan A yet?

Carrot & Stick

No offense but your posts describing how you have threatened your WW with the PR trip and then exposure shows a lack of understanding of LoveBusters. Furthermore, it is likely that by trying to "talk" your WW out of her affair, you will cause her to be defensive and push her further the other way...

I understand your comment about contacting OM seeming "distasteful" but frankly A's are nasty things that don't usually go away w/o a fight. My parents raised three very nice shy girls...and the three of us chased down my sister's OW, confronted her at a gas station, Jerry-Springer-style, and let her know we knew what she was up to and she needed to stop. She wouldn't go near my sister's H after that. Now that he is "de-fogged" he is thankful my sister did what she did...

How I wish there were more people like you and your sisters, SusieQ!

If you saw the picture of these 3 very lady like, elegant, poised ladies, you would know they are nothing like Jerry Springer types, not even close. But they are the type that will stand up for their marriages and defend them. The marriage in the above mentioned situation is in recovery and the affair is dead, dead, dead.

Thanks again for the replies and the advice. I have no where else to turn right now and you have been more help than you know. Just a few status updates:

1) I have the OM's name and address, but not much more. I'm pretty sure he's divorced, so right now I really don't know of anyone on his side to expose to. I have a home number for him and have dialed it a few times, but all I get is an answereing machine with the default computer greeting (no names, no voice). I will continue snooping and try to find out more info on him.

2) Threatening to cancel the Puerto Rico trip was going too far and my first big mistake in this process. I was trying to use it as a "stick" to get the NC letter. Yesterday I told her that I was wrong to threaten that and the trip is on and may do us some good. She agreed and said it would be good to get away from "everything going on here." I did say that I still expect some action (NC letter).

3) Still haven't seen any contact this past weekend. Sunday night is our usual day to grill out, share a nice dinner and have a bottle of wine together. Yesterday afternoon she asked if we could eat a little early so that she could "go to the gym" afterwards. I suggested she go now before dinner so that we could relax and talk some, to which she replied that she was tired right now and needed a nap, which is why she wanted to go after dinner (I know, red flag!). A little later I told her that I had really been looking forward to our Sunday dinner and a chance to relax and talk a little, just to talk and not go into anything heavy. She agreed and stayed home and we had a pretty nice dinner and movie night with the kids (kids started the movie while we hung out and talked). Don't know if she was really going to the gym, just wanted to get away for a while, or wanted to make contact, but I do feel I successfully intervened by providing a pleasant alternative.

4) Letting her know that exposure was on the table was likely another tactical error, but I'm not convinced of that yet. I have no problem blindsiding her to everyone else, but not when it comes to telling the kids (and if/when I go nuclear, they WILL be included). "Mutual Enthusiastic Agreement" is something we have agreed upon, especially when it comes to the kids. Telling them without her knowing that it is a possibility would be a colossal love buster and something I know in my heart is wrong.

5) Right now, I believe the only people who know are two of her best friends (one of which is single and the person she was going out with when she met the OM). So, she is unlikely to go to her family and friends first.

6) I am close to going nuclear and will likely do so with the very next discovery of contact. But, there is small (I know, more like infinitesimal) chance that she will end it on her own. I've got to take that chance right now, because exposure is like toothpaste, once it's out it can never be put back in the tube.

schtoop, the POJA [mutually enthusiastic agreement] should NEVER be used in situations like this. That is insane. The kids should not be told with her consent and involvement because forcing her to do such a thing would be an even bigger lovebuster. Her involvement almost ensures that the kids a) won't get the truth and b) they have to witness a fight. And for what? For absolutely no good reason. YOU should set the kids down without her knowledge, and give them the truth and give them moral guidance. Period. Don't make this harder for no good reason.

That would a tactical mistake that would only result in a big fight in front of your kids. That helps NO ONE. The wayward spouse is not acting in the best of your children and as such, should have no say or involvement in telling the kids. Things are hard enough without making things harder for no good reason.

POJA and the policy of radical honesty is for RECOVERY, not for situations where there is abuse or adultery. You don't implement the PEACE ACCORD while you are under fire on the field of battle, lest you end up dead.

Secondly, threatening exposure only tips off the WS to your plans and gives her an opportunity to pre-empt you. It also neutralizes the element of SURPRISE, which is a major element of exposure. In effect, threatening exposure does little more than give the affairees the layout of your battle plan and allows them greater latitude and ease with which to carry on the affair.

To put it bluntly, that is a stupid strategy, my friend. I have seen numerous exposures over the years completely neutralized by forewarning the affairees. They simply went to the exposure targets and spinned the story about your "insanely jealous imagination" so when you did call, your credibility was shot.

From Dr Harley's newsletter on Exposure:

entire article

And exposure is like chemotherapy to cancer. Once you expose the cancer the chemotherapy, you cannot take back the therapeutic effects. I am not understanding your reluctance to expose, schtoop.. Can you please explain why you fear this?

Do you really WANT to recover your marriage? Or is the goal here to avoid your wife's wrath at all costs? If it is the latter, you probably aren't going to make it, I will just be honest with you.

I found a quote from Dr Harley about the mis-use of the POJA and the PORH:

Not only does your WW need to cut it off w/ OM, she needs to cut it off w/ her clubbing friend. I would do even more intel on OM. I don't care if you THINK he is divorced, make sure you KNOW it. Also, I would expose to his family, ex, etc. If the OM knows that you aren't going to take this, he might duck and run. Your WW might not be worth the hassle anymore.

Again, thanks for your patience with me. I know it's frustrating to no end to give newbies sound advice and what's been proven over and over, just to have them disregard it. Just to clarify a couple of things:

I'm with you on the kids, it was never my intention to have her present when I tell them. However, you cannot convince me that blindsiding her with the kids is right, either. Giving her one chance to end things on her own before turning the kids lives upside down feels right, also.

What am I scared about with exposure??? About a million different things: Further alienating her, the pity and shame I'd feel from all our friends and neighbors, turning the kids lives upside down, blowing a chance to show understanding in a time of great need, myself getting too wrapped up in revenge rather than tyring to meet her emotional needs, etc., etc. I know these appear as excuses, but that's where I'm at right now.

I am preparing myself to take that step and I will with the next contact. I am not trying to avoid her wrath nor will I stand by and be a facilitator. I'm just not going to take that step until I am 100% convinced it is necessary. Right now I'm at about 90%.

Side note (and not to criticize, believe me), but the tone of this message board is much more militant about some issues, especially exposure, than any of Dr. Harley's writings. I know, I have read the newsletter you posted a link to about a dozen times, but much of his writings have a more gentle tone.

schtoop, for what it's worth, I had all of those same worries and fears when I first came here. But folks like MelodyLane and others made me see one fact:

NOTHING I COULD DO WOULD MAKE THE SITUATION WORSE.

Think about it.

*t/j Thanks Fred & ML

It sounds like what you are saying here is that you are holding exposure over your WW's head as leverage, is that right? Oh dear. This is not the purpose of exposure and your WW is probably thinking of ways right now to have contact undetected...

What you are proposing is blackmail, schtoop, and that is a huge lovebuster. Your kids need to be told the truth because it is best for all concerned, not because you believe it should be used as a tactic to manipulate her. It is in your childrens best interest to be told the truth since this affects their family too. It is adultery and LIES that harm children, not telling them the truth. Lying to them about the source of the trouble in their family is morally confusing and teaches them dishonesty.


Would you use this logic if faced with taking the car keys away from a drunk driver? In the hopes that letting the drunk keep the keys would somehow ENDEAR her to you? Because that is what you are doing here.

These are all ways to enable the affair, at the expense of your marriage. The affair is currently alienating you from your wife, and is the biggest threat to your marriage. You will continue to be alienated if you don't stop the affair. You should show "understanding" in productive ways that exclude ENABLING her affair. That is not compassion and it is not helpful. Your W and your children need you to stand up for them, not to enable the destruction of their family by keeping secrets.

Enabling her by helping her hide her secret will do nothing other than FUEL the affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so keeping it a secret works against you, not for you.


I will leave you to more gentle posters. Gentle is not my style. We are all posters just like you, who have careers and families but take time out of our day trying to help others save their marriages as we have. Take what you need and leave the rest.