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JL There is nothing wrong with being wrong. Staying wrong is unacceptable. Except amongst politicians, right? Larry
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Mel does point out that some people won't help themselves and apparently Harley has a low tolerance for folks "doing it their way" as clearly "their way" didn't work or they wouldn't be here or talking to Harley. I must admit and my children will tell you that I have NO TOLERANCE for folks that ask for advice and then won't even consider it. I particularly dislike the "Yes but..." response. JL, he lays out his approach to uncooperative people in this book. It was really interesting. He pretty much says what you say here in that those who don't do what he says are not going forward with him, period. He said he sometimes has his office call the couple 2 days in advance and if they haven't done their homework, he cancels the appointment! And then in other cases he said if they don't do what he tells them, they spend the ENTIRE session discussing and resolving why the assigment was not done. He says he can't help those who won't follow his instructions. If you don't do what he says, you are outta here! Another interesting thing he said was that in the beginning, when he used traditional marriage counseling techniques, he DID NOT CHARGE PEOPLE. He would tell them up front he had a dismal track record. He said his track record was SO BAD that he couldn't take people's money for that. He changed his techniques entirely and did not start charging people until he was effective at saving marriages. He advises in the book to NEVER overstate your competance. He believes in radical honesty about his skill level and has practiced that for 35 years.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Mel:
He had his reasons as stated. Not charging for what he did made his advice self fulfilling namely because of the value "Free" placed on his service. That said, it was ethical to so do.
And he is a really, really smart man who was attempting to learn what to do and then to pioneer the approach he developed. Would that more of us in this world would practice radical honesty.
I do suspect he has made more money from his books and workshops than from individual therapy sessions. And that is a good thing cause his books extend his reach to those of us who really cannot always afford therapy. I am very interested in his observation that 8 sessions is usually enough.
THAT is a major deal.
I think that I understand all the various hot buttons that cause people to hook up and get married. I am very much looking forward to learning how you take that unreal world and make it work. Apparently his new book reveals. I hope that I can understand it. I am not clinically trained.
Larry
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. I am very interested in his observation that 8 sessions is usually enough.
THAT is a major deal. Well, you know how he feels about counselors who delve into childhoods, etc, right? He thinks that is nothing more than a good way to keep people coming back for years. He is adamant that a good counselor will have a PLAN and a meaningful goal. I get the impression that he feels if a counselor can't solve the client's problem in a FEW sessions, then he probably doesn't know what the hell he is doing.. His process is nothing like anything I have ever encountered in all my years of going to counseling and wasting time with endless yakking that never availed anything. It is an amazing surprise. I hope that I can understand it. I am not clinically trained.
Larry You will be able to understand it because you have logic. That is all you need to get it. You will eat it up. I can't remember where I heard this, but I remember him saying something to the effect that trained counselors were ruined from their "training" and the ones who do best with his program are laymen like you and me who have never been trained any other way.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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The book is fantastic, very easy to read, understand and apply.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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I hope that I can understand it. I am not clinically trained. He doesn't speak the language of psychobabble so you will have no problem understanding him. 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Mel: For some parts of our society, I follow a guy in Dallas by the name of Ed Wallace wo writes for Business Week, the Ft. Worth Star Telegram, has a radio show on Saturdays and a great web site. He puts great value in critical thinking, another way of saying logic. So based on that, I guess I can stumble through it without tripping over my own feet too much. BigK's endorsement means something to me too. Hi BigK!  And Mark of course Hope I didn't leave anyone out. Soon as I have read it, or part of it, uh, when I have something to say, I will post it right here. Thank you very much. Larry
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Hi Larry - I was very sad to read of your divorce. I do hope you are doing well. Did your wife initiate the divorce?
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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BK, it was a mutual decision. I sorta pushed her into it. In my mind, it was the only way we could have a relationship. I know that sounds strange, but that was what I was thinking. She didn't need to keep going trying to make salad out of the worse decision in her life and I didn't need to keep thinking I was married to someone who I could not trust.
She wanted another child. We both have recessive genes that point to Hirschsprung's disease. Our boy has half a colon from several operations. And I as much or more a part of his life now as I ever was, again a mutual agreement.
There are some flies in the ointment that neither of us expected and I suspect will unwind in time. One other factor was the age difference and thus the generational viewpoints.
I'm ok BigK, I did my duty and upheld my honor. I will never regret marrying her, nor will I regret the divorce. Yea, well, I am also sad that it didn't work, who wouldn't be.
And I thank you for your words.
Larry
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You're a hero Larry. I salute you.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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Not one BK. I am just a guy who gets up in the morning and does what he thinks is right. There are millions out there who do the same thing. We don't make headlines, we just try to raise our kids to be good people and ourselves to not hurt anyone. But I thank you for your kind words.
Larry
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You're a hero Larry. I salute you. Hello Larry, I'm with BigK on that.... You ARE a hero in my book. You also helped save Mrs.Flint and I from a VERY similar affair mess involving a relative... I am so sorry to hear of the loss of your M. You played the hand you were dealt honorably and well to the end and can rest knowing you did everything possible to try and salvage your M. Because your FWW's affair and mine were so similar do you mind talking about what eventually caused the loss of your M? If you saw something we may be able to avoid in our M we would appreciate the heads up to try and head it off!!! I perfectly understand if you would prefer to not discuss it or wait til a later time... It is GREAT to see you back helping others. Thanks again and God bless. Jim
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jimflint
"Because your FWW's affair and mine were so similar do you mind talking about what eventually caused the loss of your M?"
Anything haunting you now?
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Jim:
Hiya - glad to hear from you. I remember clearly your situation and I don't think what happened to mine is similar other than the initial affair. I hope you and your wife/family are doing well. If not, then talking about it might help.
1. Wife wanted another child. Recessive Hirschsprung's disease genes in both of us precluded our making another one. I have posted on this.
2. Generational differences. I am way older than she is.
3. Mismatched character flaws in both of us. I haven't posted on this because identification is difficult, but I know they are there.
4. Overhang from the affair which infested all the other factors.
Except for possibly number 4, those conditions do not apply to your situation IMHO.
There remains a large affection base in both of us somewhat tainted by her choice for a new relationship that appears to be unstable. Time will tell.
Frankly, divorce helped provide closure for both us on a chapter in our lives. The stereotype that divorce means you have to hate your former partner does not apply to this one.
Larry
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ok, I found more interesting things in this book last night.
"When I see a couple for the first time, I let them know that my program will require a minimum of fifteen hours a week of their time. If they can't dedicate that much time while I'm counseling them, I suggest they find another counselor because my plan won't work without it."
another interesting thing:
"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouses affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Mel:
As to the first, time and money invested makes the lessons more valuable from the "Student's" viewpoint. Of course Harley's methods are of high quality as well.
And the second simply says that working on a partnership is impossible when it is a triangle, NOT a partnership; His ongoing message underlined.
Waiting for the book.
Larry
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Mel:
As to the first, time and money invested makes the lessons more valuable from the "Student's" viewpoint. Of course Harley's methods are of high quality as well. I agree with this, but the main reason is that it really doesn't WORK if the couple is not spending 15 hours a week together meeting each others needs. So it is a waste of his time and theirs. It is like a drunk thinking he can "recover" and never putting down the drink. If the methods don't work, then all the perceptions in the world won't help that. I can perceive that drinking while going to AA will be effective, but that perception will never trump reality.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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When I read the part about the couple having to agree to giving Dr Harley 15 hours per week, I found it rather humorous. It is almost sneaky the way he has them spend that time working on the questionnaires and such the first week, then begins to give them "lessons" that lead them into 15 hours of UA time where they are instructed to meet the four IENs and before long they end up in love with each other...
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This is part of what I posted over on MB101 forum about what I got from the book. Most of the time it is probably best that the four intimate Emotional Needs be the ones focused on. No matter where they seem to rank, these are actually the ones that husband and wife should meet for each other and should never allow anyone else to meet for them because of the potential to make huge Love Bank deposits. For men, this means SF and RC and for women it is Affection and Conversation. Almost any time anything else ranks very high, it can either be met in some way without taking time away from the Intimate ENs or it is a circumstantial need based on current conditions. If you want your husband to be in love with you, become his favorite recreational partner and give him as much sex as he wants. He'll ignore the lack of clean clothes or the fact that dinner wasn't done or the unpaid bills or even forget that he not being treated as if you admire him for who he is but only want him for...whatever...on the way to the bedroom on the way home from spending the day with you fishing. At that point DS matters not one twit... FS can sometimes be met by adjustment of the budget rather than by making more money (see Dr H's needs v wants questionnaire) Admiration can come from colleagues. DS can be from a maid. For women, if you meet Conversation (keeping in mind that this means intimate conversation about things that are important to her and not talking about sports and stuff unless she is into that) and Affection by showing her privately and publicly that you are glad to be with her and that you care for her by holding hands, hugging, speaking endearing words, etc, etc, etc... then you will be filling her love bank. If you spend RC time with a man and have plenty of good enthusiastic sex with him, he'll give you the moon or die trying to get it for you. DS can be a maid. FS can be a new budget. Admiration can come from outside and not do a lot of damage to the relationship in most cases unless a man is not getting SF and RC met. Openness and Honesty for most women can be met by other women, kids and in your spare moment. If RC time is spent hanging out with the guys, then his most enjoyable time is not being used to make LB$ deposits which could become a no-brainer just by spending the RC time with him. Intimate conversation, discussing things that really matter to a woman might be able to be met by girl friends or mother or sister, but it is the equivalent of RC time for men. Too easy to use, makes too big of a deposit any time it is done to ignore. Since Affection is so easy to do if you are already spending time together, it falls into the mix so easily and makes such big deposits it can't be ignored. And that leaves SF which no matter where it ranks on the man's list always results in a stronger bond and a deeper connection. I say always because two chemicals that are important are Oxytocin and Vasopressin. Oxytocin makes us feel bonded together. Vasopressin for men especially enhances commitment by stimulating a sense of connectedness. Both of these chemicals are in high concentrations during sex and peak immediately after orgasm. This is true in both men and women though estrogen and testosterone modify the effects of oxytocin somewhat and women also have even higher spikes of oxytocin just before birth and the chemical remains very high as long as she is nursing. Men with high oxytocin levels tend to become territorial and aggressive. Women tend to become protective and nurturing. These reaction are easily triggered by adrenaline. Sex also stimulates the heck out of dopamine production and can in most cases raise serotonin levels as well. Dopamine is the "feel good" chemical (happiness) and serotonin makes you feel at peace (well-being). Want him to be committed, devoted and bonded to you? Give him great sex. The four intimate ENs are the ones we should always meet for each other, never allow anyone else to meet for us and the ones that must be exclusive if we are spending 15 hours per week together doing RC stuff and if we want to really make a difference in the dynamics of the relationship. Want to be at least 50% right nearly 100% of the time when telling a woman what ENs to meet for her husband and know that you have one of the top two right? Tell her to meet SF and RC for him. Want to be at least half right almost all the time for women? Affection and Conversation do that. Want to be certain that two of the top 5 are covered? Those two from each side ensure it. Rare cases might not fall into these molds but they are probably circumstantial. (My most important EN at the moment is the one that needs to be met right now and is my most pressing need. Birthday party for the kids with 20 other kids in the mix? FC and DS become HUGE. Can't buy that new big screen TV because cash is short? FS jumps up to the top. Hungry and dinner isn't ready...DS IS number one on MY list... SF, RC, Af, Conv always hit two of the top 5, one of the top two and never fail to make huge LB$ deposits. The four together can be met together and exclusively on a single date night lasting three to 4 hours. 4 hours at a time, 3 times per week or all day on Sunday...Meet RC and SF, Af and Conv and you'll both be in love before you know it. Perfect day: Breakfast at 6am. Boat on the water at 6:30. Fish together till 1:30 or 2:00. Picnic in the shade and a long walk in the woods until 4:30. Fish another hour or two or just take a boat ride. Load the boat, watch the sunset, stop for some cheese and wine on the way home, fall into bed by 9:30 and don't get to sleep before 11:00. Di that every weekend and both Love Banks will have units to burn... No DS, no FS... Lots of O&H, Conv, some Affection, plenty of RC and little SF at the end of the night. A little admiration for his skills during the day thrown in for good measure and in a few weeks you won't even remember what the other ENs are. And probably won't much care either. From Dr Harley's new book: Effective Marriage Counseling Chapter 7/Page 80 So when I try to help a couple restore their love for each other, in spite of what they report in the Emotional Needs Questionnaire, I focus most of my attention on the four intimate emotional needs He explains how Physical Attractiveness can be important, but many affairs happen with a partner less attractive than the spouse. And Honesty can be very important yet almost all affairs based on lies and deception yet can thrive in secrecy and die once out in the open if the four INTIMATE ENs are being met. 1-5 are important. These four can trump the others. If these 4 are being met, the others become easier to meet and in in some cases end up not being important enough to require being met after all. If these four are being met, then conflicts become easier to resolve, POJA works more easily, UA time is easier to schedule... And if you are NOT meeting these four during your UA time, when are they going to be met? (Probable answer: they aren't going to be met and there is no intention of meeting them) Mark
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And my follow up post was this: If I said the SF trumps all other consider5ations, that was not quite what I intended. But there are 4 intimate emotional needs. These are, SF, Affection, RC and Conversation. These are the ones that inevitably make the largest Love Bank deposits and the ones Dr Harley says that he focuses the majority of attention on. Again, this is what Dr Harley says in his new book, Effective Marriage Counseling: So when I try to help a couple restore their love for each other, in spite of what they report in the Emotional Needs Questionnaire, I focus most of my attention on the four intimate emotional needs. Not my words, but the doctor's. These four create intimacy. When we think our relationship is romantic, these are the ones we consider and not things like DS or FS. We don't fall in love with someone because they earn a lot of money. The four INTIMATE emotional needs make a serious contribution to everyone's love bank. So it isn't a case of sex being the overriding EN that trumps all else, but that the four intimate emotional needs, taken together are the fastest way to make serious Love Bank deposits and should be the things concentrated on during the time couples spend together, in other words, their UA time as we call it around here. What this does is to meet these ENs which are more difficult if not impossible to meet in any other way and ensure that they are being met. Seldom does a person fall in love with someone based entirely on how he or she looks or based on the fact that they keep a tidy house. It is the INTIMATE emotional needs that we would call an affair if they are being met outside of the marriage. No one would bat an eye at having a maid clean the floor while you're at work two days per week. But if that maid spent hours golfing with a guy, we'd all see the problem at once. Also from the book: Less lovemaking and recreational companionship from the wife leads to even less conversation and aff4ection by him. The downward spiral continues until there is little or no affection, conversation, recreational companionship or sexual fulfillment. When these needs are not being met, the feeling of love evaporates and a romantic relationship ceases to exist. And: I have yet to witness a single failure (to restore the feeling of love)* when I've been able to motivate a couple to meet these four emotional needs for each other. *(My addition to clarify the subject of the paragraph rather than typing the entire page from the book) He concludes the section which is in the chapter on the Policy of Undivided Attention with this: As we go back to my definition of a romantic relationship, remember that it consists of two parts: two people in love (par1) who meet each other's emotional needs for intimacy (part 2). Since meeting the needs for intimacy is the quickest and most effective way to restore love, it makes sense to begin with that goal when counseling a couple. Once a couple actually meets those needs for each other, it's only a matter of time before enough Love Bank deposits are made to trigger romantic love. When this happens, meeting intimate emotional needs becomes almost effortless, making ever increasing Love Bank deposits. This is the reason that the very (the doctor's emphasis, not mine) quickest and most effective way for a couple to make Love Bank deposits is to be in a romantic relationship. I'm not suggesting at all that any other EN is unimportant or even less important than these four. But the doctor feels so strongly that they are the fastest way to make Love Bank deposits that they are the ones he tells other counselors to focus on getting couples to meet for each other. Also realize that this is the section on the Policy of Undivided Attention. If you asked the question, "What should we do during our UA time?" the answer would be, "Meet the ENs of Recreational Companionship, Conversation, Affection and Sexual Fulfillment." This does not vary based on the results of the ENQ since these are the four intimate emotional needs that cannot be met at other times or with a lot of people around and should not be met by any other person in our lives. What specifically we do together to meet those four ENs during our UA time can vary from couple to couple. This is where the REI form comes into play and where improved communication between us might result in higher quality UA time for both of us, but the reason for the time is, according to Dr Harley, to meet the four INTIMATE emotional needs and not simply to have fun or to meet other ENs that do not leead to and at the same time result from intimacy. I can meet my wife's EN for FS by going to work. I can improve on it by working overtime. I cannot meet her EN of Conversation and she cannot meet my EN of SF when we are not together. The time together needs to be channeled into meeting these four. Think about that for a minute. Which ENs can be met without spending time together? Honesty can to some degree. FS can. DS might be. FC can be met with the whole family in the room and in fact only when that is true. FS requires that I go to work to earn money. Physical attractiveness can happen when we are leaving for work in the morning, when we go out with friends, when we go to church... Intimate Conversation, Affection, Recreational Companionship and Sexual Fulfillment all require that we be together, that we are paying attention to each other and that other people are not making demands on our time. The best of all four happen when we are alone together in seclusion and no one else is with us. You simply cannot have intimacy without the intimate emotional needs being met. And they need to be met when we are together without a lot of people and distractions around us and that is our UA time and the needs to focus on during our UA therefor become the four Intimate Emotional Needs of Conversation, Recreational Companionship, Affection and Sexual Fulfillment. The doctor points to affairs where the affair partner is less attractive than the spouse or where the affair partner doesn't have anything to do with good housekeeping skills. He talks about how people fall in love in spite of failure to meet the other ENs very well. Affairs are all about lies but the feelings can be so intense that people are ready to destroy two families in an effort to be together. They didn't reach that point by being good housekeepers and financial gurus. People fall in love because their intimate Emotional Needs are being met. The other ENs need to be taken care of. They become less important if the four intimate ENs are being met. But the others are the sauces and condiments of the relationship. The meat and potatoes are the 4 intimate ENs. No matter what the most important are for anyone, these are the four to focus on for our UA time, since they can only be met during UA time and should not be met by anyone else. If we don't meet them during UA time, when do we meet them? Make more sense now? Mark
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