If BPD folks did not have the delusion that goes with the disorder, then it would "only" be called immaturity.

But there is serious delusion that ALSO is part of BPD. That is what separates it from pure immaturity.

Again, you would have to experience it to understand it. It just cannot be explained.

This is exactly right...you just cannot imagine this stuff and unless you have experienced it it is easy to blame BPD qualities on other things...immaturity, selfishness, etc. But when all of these qualities are put together, it's the DEGREE of these qualities that separates BPD from "just" being immature or "just" being selfish.

The degree of these things is what is not normal and cannot be "just" labeled as immature or selfishness. It's kind of like the difference between someone who sometimes, once-in-a-while tells a white lie, and someone who is a pathological liar. You would not say that a pathological liar is "just" telling a few white lies. You would probably describe the DEGREE of their lying as something more, and label it "pathological". Sure, it's on the same spectrum, but completely different things to deal with.

It's the same thing with BPD, IMNSHO.

Once, my XWW was returning from an out of town business trip. She'd been gone for 9 days and our young sons were anxious to see her.
All day I'd been telling them that mom would be home at 4PM, her scheduled time.
I received a call from her telling me that she had been asked to pick up her girlfriend at the airport. I relayed a message from her friend telling her that she would be at the upper level and to pick her up there.
My XWW arrived home at 3 the next morning> My boys were long asleep, and, as I had done many times, I had to inform them that I did not know where mom was.
She was enraged at me. Seems her friend was at the lower level of the airport and it took a few minutes longer for them to connect.
So, as punishment, she decided to blow off our kids and me and go out drinking all night.
This is not immaturity. It is evil.

Right...very typical of BPD...she thought you did this ON PURPOSE...BPD's always think everyone is out to "get them" and anything that happens to them was done on purpose.

And then their "punishment" is extremely disproportional to the "perceived" crime.

This is far more than just being immature, though if you have not experienced it I can see how it would look that way.

I hope Mr W reads some of this stuff. As has been said, I don't think someone who has not been impacted by this stuff realizes the degree of the weirdness and the abject cruelty. I bet many of us could come up with stories to try to illustrate what it was like. Some of these stories strain credulity.
I was fortunate. I had the support of my XWWs family and info showing the behavior had been present for a long time before i arrived.
My first wife's sister took me aside, after advising me to get out and said "Zelmo, don't think you had anything to do with her behavior> As you were walking sown the aisle with my sister, I turned to my husband and said """" I hope this poor guy knows what he is getting into"" ".

Now I could agree with this analysis much more than some psycho-convenient BPD label.

It's not borderline evil either.

Yeah, well then talk to the AMA and the folks that author the DSM. "Psycho-convenient", where did that new age mumbo jumbo come from? Ever ask Harley if he beleives in personality disorders? I bet he does.

It's a little frustrating to try to explain something like BPD to people who have never experienced it...because unfortunately, most people do need to experience this in order to truly understand it.

I believe this is because they are not as out of their mind as say...a serial killer, where it is EASY to say "that person has a serious mental problem". This is more subtle, yet very sinister. It's almost like BPDs know somewhere, in the back of their minds, where to draw the line so that they can still carry on some facade of normalcy...which makes it trickier to pinpoint.

BPDs are also often very smart, very sharp...they are able to keep their lies straight and their delusions believable.

I wasn't as fortunate, as all of WW's family (such as it was) had passed on before we started dating.

Over the years though, I found it strange that her two brothers/uncles (she was raised by her grandparents following her mother's death) had absolutely nothing to do with her: not even a Christmas card!

Last year, one of her "brother's" sons died in a motorcycle accident. We went to the memorial service. "Brother" was cold and formal with her, even though she weakly tried to engage him in some family bonding.

She later learned that her ex-husband received a 'thank you' card. She received none.

Now I know why.

I think you could plug a wayward into almost any psycho-convenient label that you want....

How about Narcissistic;

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines narcissistic personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[1]

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1.has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2.is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3.believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4.requires excessive admiration
5.has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6.is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7.lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8.is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
9.shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

If that's the case, then wouldn't it be easy to dismiss EVERY "mental disorder" out there? Why are some believable and others not? Who is to say that Bipolar Disorder doesn't exist then? Or schizophrenia...multiple personality disorder? Or any other mental disorder out there?

God help our children. The ugly A fallout is going to have them labeled as disordered.

Good telltale signs, Fred. You will find yourself looking for clues like this to validate your expierience.
Almost everyone that has dealt with these folks seems to be left with lingering doubts: Do I have this righ? Was it really me with the PD? etc
One thing I found helpful that was suggested to me. Look at how others close to you feel about you and how they deal with you. I bet no one demeans or portrays you as negatively as your BPDW did.
Yes , it is true that these folks mask their disorder from outsiders. So, you may wonder if you have done the same.
So, look at how your longterm, close relationships are.

With the disordered, as you have seen, their families are wary of them, many times.

The [BIG] difference here is that we are not talking about people (like waywyards) who eventually "come out" of their fog/NPD as you listed.

We are talking about folks who are always, perpetually this way. They do not change and it is not dependent on an affair.

Why?

Yeah, but we are talking persitent, longstanding behaviors here, tst. This thread is about folks who have been with the disordered and the cheating is just a portion of what they have expierienced. No one is saying evry WS is disordered. But, the disordered are adulterous a lot of the time.

Because many have the same feelings as listed on pg 1 about their parents' D or marital discord.

ETA: Or just the feelings children and teens have while growing up even with and A issues.

Seems many folks here have a lot of faith in Dr Harely. I have no evodence for this. But, since he has a PhD. in psych. I think there is a good likeliehood he beleives in the existence of PDs and he knows of the PD propensity for infidelity.
Anyone want to ask him if he feels PDs exist?

The stuff I went through had nothing to do with the temporary insanity or fog or whatever attendant to the affair, Pep.
As far as I know, when i was getting cold water shower dousings , and my WW was bouncing checks,and giving me the silent treatment, she had not yet begun cheating.