How droll .

I haven't read it so I can't comment on her previous relationships or her child abandonment. If I was low enough to cheat on someone, I would probably be low enough to slander him as well.

BR, I let the facts speak for themselves:

• Four marriages she's left.
• Three children she's left (by two different fathers). What mother abandons her children?
• Alcohol abuse. Eating disorder. Self-mutilation
• Two jobs lost -- fired -- without taking responsibility
• Massive debt load. No attempt to remedy (and it continues to this day)...
• No conscience. Does not believe/care that she hurts people
• Inability to plan ahead
• Hypersexual/seductive. Uses that to engulf her "victims"
• Chameleon-like. Adapts herself to the person she's with (became a runner with me, now smokes with OM)

And again, this list is pitifully short and incomplete. I can expound on each point, and add more nearly ad infinitum.

I'm not a stupid man. I'm in an analytic job. I don't take anything for granted based on a single article I read. I have an entire folder of bookmarks on my browser that stands as evidence of my research. I have even checked to see whether I am "looking to find" evidence to support my thesis (I believe I even posted that question here).

I don't need a clinical diagnosis at this point. I'm satisfied with my findings.

What I am currently working on is me. What personality aspects do I have that made me vulnerable to someone like her? I used my daughter to demonstrate that two people of the same flesh can see someone in different ways. That I allowed myself to get enmeshed with The Leopard is on me, no one else.

It has EVERYTHING to do with this....... It is the one constant variable in in everyones situation on this forum.

I can't believe you are so dismissive about the effect of adultery and how it can affect each marriage in such a major way.

Well after reading that, the reason I probably never commented on your thread is because WW sounds like a trainwreck and I would not have advised to salvage the M. I do not think you are a stupid man. But as you said, you allowed yourself to marry this woman knowing her history. We all have ignored red flags that we now kick ourselves for but that does not make any of us stupid. If WW still continues to hurt people, whether out of thoughtlessness, entitlement, or malice, you are better off without her. She does not want to change.

You don't know when she first cheated, so you are again making a Dx without the accurate history and without the professional education.


And, Yes I've read these;

1. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment.
2. A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
3. Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
4. Implusivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating).
5. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.
6. affective instability due to marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
7. Chronic feeling of emptiness.
8. inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights.
9. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.

And I fit nicely into every single one if you want to examine my entire life. More than 8 years of time too.

I think nearly EVERY alcoholic or addict fits nicely into these as well.

And nearly every wayward fits into most of these too.......

Personality aspects or character defects??

I don't know Fred, can the subject be the object?? Can you let go and let Fred?? or hasn't that already been attempted in your life?

Recovery is a process, not an event.

I have already gone from wanting to recover my marriage to thanking God I got out of it as easy as I have.

Call them character defects, if you wish. I'm in A.A. I posted last night that I had been to a Sixth Step meeting that was very powerful for me and just what I needed.

An old saying I learned early in my sobriety: "You have to name it before you can tame it."

I am entirely willing to have God remove these defects of character.

I just don't know if I've identified them all, yet.

You need help with reading comprehension, or you are intentionally acting obtuse, IMO. The thread is about surviving a personality disorder. My reference that infidelity was inconsequential was directed at the assertion that waywards act like this. We have already gone over the fact that we are talking about a pervasive pattern of this , without regard to recent wayward behavior.
Get some remedial help.

Worth repeating.

Careful now, you are falling into the #2,#6 & #8 catagories.....

Pain is nothing to be ashamed of. The concepts are relatively easy to understand, IMO. I have never questioned their validity, as applied to a non-disordered spouse.

Well put!

I know you're in AA Fred..... I chose my words intentionally.

Yeah, I got that. Either that, or you're "buzzword friendly."

Here's a question for you, tst. If dx by a close family member or partner is skewed, does your BS feel you are mentally healthy or non -disordred? Does she disagree with the psych who dx'd you as NPD from afar?
If so, wouldn't her assessment be skewed? Have you recieved a clinical clean bill of health dx?

Fred, the only thing I would ask is; Does the AA Program ask us to analyse what personality aspects you or I have that made us vulnerable to alcohol? or did AA just show us how to put Extraordinary Precautions in place to help us learn how to stay away from the drink in order to not get drunk again?

I just think all this analyzing is a huge waste of time when it's as simple as developing EP's in order to prevent a re-occurance of the same conditions that got you here.

I think I'll exercise the 5th here

Sounds good.

My dad was in AA and I have been to ACOA and Al-anon. In the programs I attended , there was plenty of analysis as to the reasons folks drank. I did not get the impression that anyone felt it was a waste of time.

I think the dry drunks are he ones that just stop and do not look within for the reasons. Lots of addicts have PDs.

Understood, tst. By the same reasoning though, the Fourth Step inventory requires us to look at what our part had been. To fully understand the exact nature of our wrongs (Fifth Step) we had to look at ourselves. Thus, when we become entirely willing to have God remove all these defects of character we have been searching and fearless.

After all, the first three steps deal with us and our alcoholism. But the remaining steps deal with us and how we deal with others. I have now been "once bitten" and I will certainly be "twice shy" in future relationships. But if I am disordered (and I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I see a lot of NPD in myself and my upbringing) I need to address that, or I will fail at having adult, mature relationships even if I have EPs in place to prevent future recurrences of my last marriage. Does that make sense?

Not sure I understand tst's aversion to analysis of this stuff. Again, having Ep's , boundaries etc is not precluded by doing some thinking about things.
And, if one is to tailor one's boundaries to a particular vulnerability(i.e. the attraction to PD folks), why not get some knowleged about them.
Know thy enemy, right?