Yeah, I'm intending to ask that today. Actually I asked her last night.

Going to be hard to suppress my urge to say "Here's some things I've asked you to do to be romantic toward me which you have not done, or only did for a little while and then stopped." I'm sure she has some to say to me, and I need to hear them, but don't think I haven't been working hard in this regard.

I have a feeling she will actually be wanting to take this proposal back in the near future, and come up with a better suggestion to actually work on things. We will see.

I understand her feeling of rejection.

After a long day of working while hearing how bad things are from my wife (in a respectful and thoughtful manner, I hasten to point out), I came home feeling in withdrawal. I'm sure a better husband would have shown up with flowers and candy or something, but I just wasn't there yet, you know? I did come home prepared to feed everyone, which is not really "my" job. So she didn't have to worry about that.

And then I made sure to play with the kids. They missed an entire evening with me last week after my stunt then.

I spent a long time sitting next to my wife silently, watching the kids. I apologized to her and told her I was feeling kind of raw and that's why I wasn't very talkative. She asked after awhile if I wanted to go be alone. I told her I was thinking of going to call my support source, and the next thing I knew one of the boys (who understood only that I was talking about going out) was begging to come with me. So I talked a bit about maybe just taking him out to the store, but she seemed to turn off to me at that point, so I never did it. I also told her I wouldn't mind watching TV with her (she likes that), and that I really thought I ought to spend some time with the kids for awhile and then put them to bed.

Played with the kids awhile; she got some of them ready for bed and took care of putting them down and then took a shower. When she got out, I put the rest of the kids to bed. Sat down with her and watched a show she'd already started. After getting up twice to take care of kids who needed to be still and quiet and weren't, I concluded I needed to go supervise them till they fell asleep (that's just how we have to do it here sometimes ). Took a pillow back there and lay down. Quieted the boys once or twice ... and then woke up at 2:30.


Well, it says something ... but you have to understand I have been meeting pretty much all of her requests for romance. I spend time with her doing things she likes. We take drives, and trips, which she likes. I give her flowers, and candy, which she likes. (Flowers three times in the last two weeks, actually, including a massively expensive bouquet surprise delivered last Friday to say "I'm sorry," with the result that she forgave me and took the whole family on a trip, during which time she was ecstatic the whole time and certainly appeared to be getting her emotional needs met.) She's not big on physical and verbal affection, but I am, and so I tend to do those things automatically in very sufficient supply.

I don't know what she wants me to do different to win back her love. I know I have a couple of love busters I still need to work on, and I believe those are serious issues.

I don't think she knows what she wants. These discussions always seem to come down to her saying "I don't know." She doesn't know, and I can't figure it out. She doesn't know what she wants different about sex. But she's very disappointed that it's not happening.

Incidentally, one of the few things she told me about sex yesterday was that she wanted me to be less timid about sex, and more confident.

In our marriage, I have been on the receiving end of my wife's anger for:
* having sex with her when she didn't want to
* not knowing that it was okay to have sex with her and holding back
* trying to make her orgasm when she didn't want it
* NOT trying to make her orgasm when she did want it
* not trying to make her want orgasm when she DIDN'T want it (I'm serious)
* asking if she felt like sex
* asking if she liked what I was doing
* asking immediately after sex how she felt
* asking a day or two after sex how she felt

I've been told I'm horribly selfish in bed. And I'm too timid.

I'll admit that I'm a completely failure for her sexually, but the fact is that she doesn't really know what she wants, and she's horribly disappointed (JUSTIFIABLY), and she's taking that out on me (not justifiable, IMO).

By the way, is there anyone here who would not feel timid after going through all of the above?

I'll change my timidity, if I can, but it's a great way to get myself in trouble.

Markos, if'n I was you and I had an appointment set up for next week, I would put all the relationship talks on hold until after that. Of course, meet any and all emotional needs and if you know what those big love busters are then eliminate those but other than that, dude, take a week off from the stress and just breath........

Sounds like good advice. I'm going to try.

Hi Markos,

You sure to apologize a lot.
I'm still not sure what your original 'crime' was...

This whole thread gives me a icky feeling...
You; chasing, begging, reading, pleading, apologizing.
Her; 'hurt'(?), immature, spoiled, selfish, moving the target, expecting you to a mind reader, AND getting upset if you ask too many questions.

I've been reading on the NMMNG site a lot lately... Might consider reading it and see if anything fits.

NMMNG

She pouts, then you beg her to tell you why... I'd stop doing that. It seems to be rewarding her childish behaviour. She may not even know why she's mad, she just knows that IF she's mad, you'll do whatever she wants?

Marriage is not supposed to be about you playing 100 questions hoping that you can make her happy. She's an adult, some of the statements you made about her just blew me away... very childishly expecting you to KNOW and take care of her needs, unconditionaly.

Have you considered that her actions may be more about controlling you than making her happy?

Has anything been successful in making her happy?

Have you heard of Plan 180? Seems she's got you dancing on a string, and you are way too eager to (try) to please her. It's not working, so I'd stop.

What if the answer is that she's not going to be happy? That you cant fix her? Then at least you can stop the pleading.

Do you work out? Have outside interest/hobbies? Volunteer work? Male friends?

I guess what I'm feeling reading your posts is that 'I' would not find it attractive for my H to be acting so submissive. So 'grovely'... (without a major crime, which I haven't seen here)

Strong, confident... those are attractive qualities. Work more from the position of 'how can you be attractive, just you working on YOU', as opposed to trying to appeal to a list of her demands that have not produced significant results.

Watch her actions, not her words. Asking her what she wants isn't working, what have you seen that works? Again, it seems to me that she'll just move the target if you do as she asks.

Stop grilling her. It's not working, anyway, right?

So, SO tired of coming home to find out that there's no dinner prepared, no plan for dinner, wife seems to expect me to take care of it, house is in squalor, not a single clean dish in the house, grocery budget is being used as wife's personal play money, and I have to buy dinner with the money she claims to want me to use to buy us a house and a van later this year...

And now the wife has left me for the evening without telling me where she's going, because I dared to tell her that I needed more support.

I'm awful. I fell apart and called my mother-in-law. She brought us dinner. We talked.

Not good, I know. But when I realized I didn't even have the car with the carseats and couldn't even take the kids out to a drive through or something, I lost it.

I know I shouldn't lose it.

Got to make it till Monday. Got to make it till Monday.

Not sure how I'm going to make it till Monday. It doesn't look like my wife is going to be doing anything around here other than keeping the children alive while I'm at work. Because I'm not meeting her sexual needs, she's just going to take time off. She's too upset.

I know I'm being judgmental.

My instinct is to send her a message tomorrow telling her I won't be home for dinner if she doesn't take responsibility to wash some dishes and make a plan for dinner. I know that if I'm not here, she will figure out something (probably put everybody in the car and get them a happy meal). She knows that if I come home, she doesn't have to do anything.

I keep thinking "I should have kept my mouth shut, and she would've stayed." But what difference would that have made. She wouldn't have been friendly to me. She wouldn't have helped make dinner or wash dishes or get the kids ready for bed. So maybe I'm not so broken up about that after all.

She came home, and I didn't want to look like I was ignoring her, so we talked. Mostly I talked.

Despite the fact that she told me the other day how upset she was that I tried to arouse her using things I thought were arousing instead of things she has told me she finds arousing, she doesn't actually remember very many things she has told me at all, and tells me that I shouldn't want a "list."

She can't get over the feeling that I do not care about her sexual fulfillment. This is proved by the fact that last year I learned to start doing certain things for her, and I don't do them any more. But the reason for that is 1) she doesn't want me to start with those behaviors until she is aroused, and 2) I don't know how to start arousing her any more.

My lack of care is also proved by the fact that, should I experience sexual climax before her, I will not try anything to keep stimulating her to bring her to climax. But this is simply untrue; I tried just last week. [And would have tried every night since then, were we actually having sex.] There are times I do not try, when the fierce glare in her eyes suggests that she is angry at me for the fact that my body has betrayed me, and that she's determined to be mad and unwelcoming of any further advances. Furthermore, I've got a number of seriously negative memories under my belt of trying to manually stimulate her when she didn't want it and hurting her terribly and causing some of the hugest fights of our lives. I'm scared to death to go any route at all without her goahead. I'm also scared to death I'll try something and she'll say "no" in her very quiet manner which I easily miss, and I'll keep going and traumatize her. It's happened before.

She's got herself barricaded so tightly there's no way in, and she's mad at me for not coming to rescue her.

She's also extremely turned off by the fact that I am so scared. She says she's not aroused by me being scared of her. I'm sorry, but any sexual encounter these days could end up with her giving me the silent treatment, blowing her stack at me, refusing to have anything to do with me .... yes, I'm scared. I think she needs to take more ownership of that. I think she needs to make it safe for me to be bold by giving me a more forgiving environment.

Markos, you sound like an inexperianced clumsy lover. I think your wife is quite selfish and insulting but yet if I were a woman i would be very frustrated too in bed with you.

You have to learn to be a good, gentle lover and not keep asking her over and over and over to write you a list of what she wants. Cant you remember what the woman wants and likes in bed/

You have to master her as you would any other sport, master driving your favorite car, or doing something very complex that requires sensitivity, courage, confidence, and communication. Are you silent in bed or do you ask "Like this?" etc?

You act as if you dont know your way around a woman at all. Get a few books on lovemaking or something. Pracice softly and slowly. Give her orgasms WAY before you try for your orgasm. Four days out of five, for a week or two give her total pleasure and forgo your own pleasure. Can you do this???

Perhaps you need lovemaking training, but you will have to learn this with your own wife now., If she is already pissed off and you need her to tell you what to do in bed like you are too afraid to proceed or something, well, it will go badly for you.

She didn't let you get away with "leaving", she claimed abandonment. Yet, she did it to you. Does she do this often? Not just refuse to talk, but actually leave? And not tell you where she is going or when she will return?

I'm having a "pot" and "kettle" moment here...

Been there. Totally agree. Don't let her off the hook though, it is half her fault if she doesn't know what she wants or how she wants it. It takes two to learn how to move together harmoniously. It also takes time, and courage. Most importantly, don't give up!

Markos, I wasn't going to post today because I have a killer day at work but I just couldn't let it slip. I think we've all established that y'all have some deep, long standing, not progressing issues. And I applaud you for taking a step, by making an appt, to get help. That being said, I'm 100% sure you've tried to solve this problem on your own over and over and over again to no avail. BUT professional help is on the way, continueing in insanity by doing the same thing over and over again will not improve anything. STOP DISCUSSING IT. STOP ANALYZING IT. STOP ENGAGING IN THE CIRCLE. DO NOT BE PULLED INTO THE DRAMA. STOP IT, RIGHT NOW PERIOD. Next week you're going to get some sort of plan from Dr. Harley and it may involve doing things you don't want to do like STOP MAKING WITHDRAWLS FROM THE LOVE BANK. STOP RIGHT NOW. I feel ya, you feel wronged, hurt, and angry but two things to keep in mind, you went back for more and you chose to make withdrawls.

"""yes, I'm scared. I think she needs to take more ownership of that.""" While at some point she should see your emotion as valid just as you need to see her emotions as valid, your emotions are you to own not hers. Right, wrong, or indifferent no one else need ever OWN our emotions.

And lastly, I haven't a clue how many kids you have or how difficult they are to deal with. And while I can sympathise with your anger about coming home to a dirty house YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO CLEAN IT. Is it really worth all the freaking drama to just do the dang dishes. I know that I have a 3yo and an 18mo at home that flat wear my wife out during the day. When the work day is over, some days it's plain and simple she totally needs a break, I let her take it. If your dishes have gotten to the point where there isn't a clean one in the house, shame on you. Obviously it bothers you, so do something about it. Dishes is a pet peeve of mine, so rather than get angry about it, I do the dam dishes. I do them when I'm at home for lunch, I do them the minute I get home from work, I do them before I go to work. A freaking dirty dish is not worth causing pain to my wife who honestly could care less about having dirty dishes.

Markos, you're still posting from the point of a victim, and you may very well be, but if you want to work on this you are going to have to find some strength and some self-control right now. Heck, for all you know this whole episode could be spurred by her depression which was brought to a place of additional fear by you getting counceling.

Anywho, I got to bail for now but Markos please, please, PUH-LEASE refuse to let anyone live in your head rent free. Own your side of the street and give this whole thing a rest long enough to get the help you need.

I'm not too proud to do the dishes, Bill. It's just that I can't do that AND spend all this romantic time with my wife that she wants AND take care of all the midnight childcare needs AND get myself to work early in the morning so that I can leave at 4 AND come home to make dinner.

The only way I know to stop dealing with it is to simply not come home for the evening.

Or come home and just sit there and not talk, but, despite the fact that she's happy to do exactly that to me, it infuriates her when I do it.

I have no clue what my gameplan between now and Monday needs to be.

And do the laundry. And pick my clothes out of the pile of clean laundry each morning.

And pick the pile of clean laundry up off of the floor every single night when I get home.

AND take care of the kids, who desperately want some more attention from their father.

If anybody's got any tips how I can get from here till Monday doing all of these things without making any love bank withdrawals, I'm all ears.

Oh now c'mon Markos, you've lived with this for how long now and you expect us to buy off on the fact that you absolutely have no clue how to make it 6 days? Naw, I ain't gonna buy it. Deep down in that gut somewhere is some power you can muster up. I ain't saying you are going to or even need to make a whole bunch of deposits but you control you, thus you can control withdrawls even at a point where you're reluctant to make deposits. 6 days, c'mon Markos, you can do that standing on your head. If EVEYTHING don't get done, the world is not going to end...... 98% of everything right now is attitude and son you have to find a "Can Do" one in lieu of this "Doom & Gloom" one.....

Stop on the way home from work tonight, get whatever you need to make Mommy's favorite meal alond with a flower or two. Come in the door happy to be home. Clean that kitchen real quick and get the kiddo's in there to help make Mommy a special dinner. After dinner, clear the table and knock out those dishes while momma is still sitting there eating. Don't do it because you have to, do it because you want to. If laundry is a huge imposition, then get proactive at it. We do laundry on the weekends only and sometimes it just don't get done. If it bothered me, I'd either do it or drop it off at the cleaners until I can come up with a new schedule.

Be proactive rather than reactive. 6 days, shoot, ain't nothing but a thang.........

Okay, here's the plan:

I leave work early today, stopping at Wal-Mart for sandwich supplies. When I get home if dinner is ready I accept it with gratitude, if not, I make sandwiches for everybody. I start in on getting the kids ready for church; I do not ask for help. If my wife is talkative and friendly I will be so right back to her; if she is quiet then I will probably also not talk to her, either; I realize that may be a love buster but it's pretty much all I can manage.

After church we take our usual trip down to the Valero for a Dr Pepper; I get treats for the kids; we head back home. I put the kids to bed not asking for help; afterward I go to the kitchen and start washing dishes.

What about mommy's favorite dinner? Are you planning on playing chicken with who speaks first?