That muscle mist sounds amazing!!

I was hoping the muscle mist would be something I could spray on that would make muscles FOR me, so that I could stop working out. Unfortunately my hopes were dashed when I clicked on the link.

Glad you got some giggles in, ST. Glad you and J are in a better place then last week, and I'm glad you're able to get up and move around a bit more.

Have a glad day.

I can't get muscle mist here - they don't even ship it. So if any of you are ever passing through please pick some up for me and stick it in your suitcase.


I think the acts of service is a very interesting point for discussion - do you think it relies too much on an overactive giver to really be a part of MB?


I tell you what though, it makes me feel very close to J and I have told him so and last night I was going to make an even bigger point of it but he stopped me dead. I asked him if he could please turn the light off - I can't reach it wiht my limited mobility - he yelled and complained: "you should've told me you were going to want me to do it when you got into bed"

I do actually like being looked after. And poor J he did have a rough time - not only did he do pretty much everything until sat night, he then had to deal with both kids who were sick in the night and then he was sick sunday afternoon. He decided he had to go back to work yesterday though - for a rest.

I went back to work today - first time in a week - it hurts now lots. I won't be going to band tonight again. Will have to find something me and J can do together.

Over active Giver?

I think the whole premise of the Giver and Taker is one that needs to be taken as a complete package. Today a lot of folks consider giving to be good and taking to be bad, but the Giver and Taker are both good...

And both bad.

Sacrificial giving can accomplish a short term goal in some cases, such as one spouse working extra hours so that the other can complete his or her degree. But long term sacrifice eventually causes our Taker to demand equal time. When that switch happens in our mind it causes us to feel entitled and that entitlement fuels all sorts of stuff that is not very beneficial to the marriage relationship.

The Giver is good because it makes us want to do things for our spouse. It protects others but also requires us to sacrifice. My Giver wants my wife to be happy even if it means that I am unhappy and THAT makes it a bad thing in the long run.

My Taker wants ME to be happy and doesn't care whether my wife is happy or not, and so it can cause my wife to be unhappy in an effort to get what I want in order to be happy. This damages my wife's feelings for me and diminishes my balance in her Love Bank. But my Taker also protects me from my Giver when I am willing to give away the farm when I am giving even when it makes me unhappy.

So both Giver and Taker are both good and bad. One protects my wife from my selfishness and the other protects me from over giving when in a state of Intimacy.

What the goal of all of this should be is that we BOTH give and get in return. Dr Harley suggests that at first couples identify each others top two ENs and begin meeting those two needs for each other in order to make the biggest Love Bank deposits as quickly as possible. Once the romantic threshold is surpassed and both husband and wife begin to feel as if they are in love with each other again, it naturally flows from that feeling that they begin to want to start giving more and more.

A critical point is reached where both are trying to give because both want to make the other happy and the process becomes giving and getting rather than giving and taking. Our Giver always desired to give but our Taker demanded that we be happy. Once we ARE happy because our spouse is giving in order to make us happy, then our Taker steps back and realizes that we are getting what we want and so does not have to selfishly require a balancing of the books.

If both of us can reach this point, both be in a state of Intimacy, then we both are willing to give, both are getting what we want and both are willing to continue to give because our Taker doesn't need to step in. At this point we must be careful that we don't give away too readily, but even then if we are getting in return it keeps our Taker at bay and we are actually happy to give.

At first we hesitate to let our Giver loose because we have not gotten anything in return. But once we BOTH begin to meet each others top couple of ENs we are getting enough to let our Taker step back and continue giving. The whole trick is to agree to each meet the ENs of the other from the beginning, even if you don't feel like doing it. Once you do it a few times and the other is doing it for you as well, you begin to want to do it more readily and from there it spirals upward till it turns into give and get rather than give and take.

At first your Giver doesn't have to become OVER active, simply active in spite of the way you feel. What you really have to do is lock up your Taker in order to keep it from pulling out the tools it loves to use such as SDs, DJs, AOs, lies...manipulation in order to get what we want. It isn't our Giver not being active that stops us but our Taker becoming over active that keeps us from wanting to give.

Again, when we are BOTH meeting each others ENs well, our Taker steps back and lets our Giver run the show because we ARE getting what we want and feel in love and want to make our spouse happy by letting our Giver run amok.

Mark

Good post as always Mark


Poor J. Hope he feels better , and your back comes right soon.

Hey Lil. J is better and my back seems to be making steady upward progress - back to the chiro tomorrow!


Thank you for that Mark. It's interesting (for me anyway) that the times I really feel like I love J is when he is looking after me, and helping out because he is just doing it and not because I have asked him to and when he takes over all the responsibility of running the house: he plans the washing, cooking, shopping,cleaning, child entertainment and I don't have to have any input - my mind can be free of those things.

But actually - if it is because I am not incapacitated - then I still yearn for it but feel incredibly guilty requesting.......

a-ha I guess that is because then in those circumstance it is because I would be asking for it. It is rarely offered.


Maybe my back was the opportunity to have some proper me time without all the day to day rubbish that has to fill my head. Me craving me me me and all my I I I statements from 10 days ago were looked upon and I got a knackered back and the opportunity to empty my head. Gave J the chance to look after me. Do you think that is how it was all s'posed to work out?

Anyway I really quite like him - it's such a shame that I can't really get comfortable/drugged up enough to meet his needs - that sounds not how I mean it to - but YKWIM.

This is one of your sentences that I have to interpret on my own ....... and I think I know exactly what you mean!

I'm glad your back is easing up a bit!

Little update.

J started the perpetrators of abuse course this week. He had a meeting with the chap in the day who thought J would have a lot to offer the group as well as gain form the group.

The chap was pleased with the way we have handled comms with the children, the way we handled the separation and the work that J has done with himself.


J came back with lots to tell me about the first session which was "Sexual abuse" and it prompted some good discussion. How it affirmed to him that the sulking he used to do when I was reluctant to have sex was abusive. And more discussion on the internal dialogue I have when anticipating sex.

One very very useful thing to come form it for me was that I realised that I really don't like it missionary stylee because it triggers me to a time/place where I felt physically and emotionally vulnerable - I can do one or the other but not both. I'm not sure when the day might come when we can look each other in the eye and have sex.

The snuggles and cuddles have been very real this week - honest and relaxed.

Tomorrow is my b'day and he will leave for work at 5.30am and return home after a volley ball match at 10.30. I think he would have come home after work, but it will be the first time he's been since he moved out and he has been so so so so so so so so good looking after me for the last 2 weeks and we have 2 nights away without children next week to do our celebrating.

And the puppy is Ted
Ted

The puppy is gorgeous!

Have a lovely birthday, st. I wish I could remember what 34 felt like!

Thank you Mark and Sugarcane

It was mostly a lovely b'day. The kiddies were gorgeous when they came in in the morning with cards and singing.

I didn't hear from J all day. He did pop after work - grunted and puffed at the kids being up (7.20? ), obvioulsy rolling his eyes at the bags of pressies and school stuff dumped on the floor and then when I said Hiya, didn't think I'd see you. MY back is awful again" He went off on one about how did I do that, why isn't it getting better, why am I not looking after myself properly"


Kids and I had been to mums for tea - where I had spent a lot of time prostrate on the floor, because my back was not also painful but all the muscles were totally exhasuted. I looked D R E A D F U L. I'd managed to summons the iny last amount of energy to sort kids for bed and read stories - almost in tears anyway (and had been on the way to mums because it is so frustrating) and he walks through the door - on my b'day, having not been in touch all day and has a go.

What is wrong with him?

He apologised last night...
and then started again this morning- even worse, I did have a rant to a lovely friend this morning and felt better and now he's being normal- all forgotten.

I'm cross. No. I'm sad. I'm fed up anyway.

I'm cross that he's acting as i nothing happened. I'm sad that I have the pain back and lack of mobility and frustrated that I can't move.

I just don't understand - I have shown my gratitude lots. I have told him ow grateful I am - the whole world knows how great I am

And then he walks in form work like that

HE's on nights, so I don't have to see him again for a bit - hopefully he'll have worked it out.

Care, Protection, Honesty and Time...

RC and SF

Conv and Af

Requires time...

You know that; I'm just pointing it out for the noobs.

I can't believe that one day with limited communication can have such a dreadful effect.

I can not do anything right this last few days and I am now at the point of not bothering.

It just seems so so sad when we've come so far. The only glimmer of hope for me is that a few days before he started to take things very literally as in very literally. I think it was a saying "too many cooks spoil the broth" not that but along those lines - and he's actually looking for the broth. When I pointed out to him that there wasn't actually any broth and that it was a figure of speech he stopped arguing about not being able so see the broth. ( which is again a plus, because in the past he would have continued and continued with how wrong I am for days)

And I'm hoping that this is as a result of tiredness that has triggered his condition.

And actually in this situation I do need to keep away from him because it is totally dstroying the love that had been built. I just need to watch for the signs that he is out of it.

Draining.

So although this is impacting on US for now, I don't think that MB can currently be applied. Hopefully he'll be out the otherside for when we are away and that I will have done enough to protect myself and my love that I will not have withdrawn from him.

A plethora of individuals with culinary expertise, can often ruin a concoction created by steeping assorted comestibles.

I'm going to think about the rest of your post before I reply.

Just know that I think it is the perfect place for application of MB.

Just been back reading over some of the QandA columns.

I was told last night that the reason he is still being horrible is because I am keeping my distance.

Definition of distance: Being civil (not friendly), communicating as needed.


I let him know that he was choosing to be horrible and let him know that if he was goingto blame me in that manner for him being nasty then the conversation would end. I said goodnight and turned the phone off.

If I make eye contact with him, it's an excuse for him to go off on one.

He did stop himslef tonight. DS was sat next to me and as J was going on and on DS said to me "just tell him to stop, tell daddy to stop, tell him to stop". DS didn't seem frightened or worried by it, just seemed to think it was unnecessary. J stopped, but I guess that was only with DS help.


So yes Mark. I can employ MB. I can make sure I don't LB in response to DJs and AOs. And I can and do do that. Have been doing so for 3 days now. But absolutely everything is irritating to him and I seem to keep developing new annoying habits, which cause him to immediately AO.

I'm getting crosser the more I think about it. Sis commented on the slight atmosphere - DD has been a little sensitive and prone to tears today.

What else can I do?

He didn't even acknowledge his Valentine's card and gift.

Bollocks! Was just stupid enough to pick up the phone to him;. He says that we haven't changed at all since last Valentines day.

I'm sorry, ST. Those romantic holidays are icky for awhile. I hope things get better.

ST,

I feel like I've been abandoning you and my other peeps here in recovery. I don't mean to be doing that, but I just don't seem to have a whole lot of time right now and haven't really had a clue what to tell you since I haven't been able to give it a lot of thought.

Was there something especially awful about last Valentine's Day, I mean some trigger or something that caused more grief than what was typical or "normal" for the time?

One thing we now know is that if either of us seems to be moving the wrong way, there is usually a reason for it. We can now talk about things before they become a real problem but that wasn't always true. We would put up with something in an effort to avoid conflict and the result was usually pretty catastrophic.

It took a serious effort to work at identifying what was bothering us so that it could be addressed if it was a Love Buster and if it was a conflict that resulted from some disagreement we had to learn that preserving our love was even more important than solving the problem or disagreement.

We also tended to try tp punish each other for what we thought were lapses in protecting each other. She would withdraw rather than confront a problem and I would get angry because we were moving farther apart instead of closer together. What we both learned was that it had to be safe for either of us to bring something up that was bothering us so that it could be addressed rather than brushed aside.
As we got better at doing those kinds of things that lead to creating love instead of destroying it, we started to find it easier to deal with problems because we didn't have to dig ourselves out of such a deep hole to start making progress.

If he has a relapse and begins to fall into old habits, what would be called a spontaneous restoration of the old way of doing things, it can require a simple reminder of how things are supposed to be. But if you revert to the old ways and withdraw, then the cycle that repeated itself so many times in the past is begun and just sort of rolls along as if it had a mind of its own.

If I see my wife falling into old patterns I find that often I have done so as well. We dance the same dance as before because we play the same music and follow the same steps. Change the music or change the steps and the dance has to change as well.

I can also tell you that if I feel my own love beginning to slip, then I know for certain that we need to spend more time meeting ENs for each other and that means increased UA time. If we don't get enough time together, fuses get to be pretty short, we don' feel like spending time together and resolving any conflict becomes a chore made in hell. The trick is that when you want to not be together, that is the time to spend even more time together.

Mark

PS Thank you, BTW and you know what for...

Hello

Thanks for your reply Mark


I don't feel abandoned by, there are lots of people in more urgent need of direction than me. I think, as you pointed out in your last post - I know how it works. Just occasionally need a refocus or another pair of eyes.



To be honest, I have absolutely no recollection of last V day.

Thank you for sharing your experiences to help me ponder.

I think this was it. I think maybe J did avoid what he thought could have been a conflict



I've thought this over. I was being very loving and attentive - doing all the things that J has been needing - and it wasn't hard for me. He became very stressed and for some reason wasn't talking about it.

I was trying very hard to make sure I wasn't withdrawing and to make sure that if he AOd I dealt with it appropriately.

On discussion, once the dust had settled and we were away I asked him what he thought had gone wrong. He identified his stress : waiting to hear about the job,my back causing such poor mobility, guilt about not being around for my b'day, getting a puppy and the pressure of having a nice few days away together, coupled with forgetting to take his Rhodiola and Ashwaganda (which help with the shift working).



I know and have been able to identify when this is a problem. This wasn't the problem this time.

This was a relapse and a step back to the old J. He's recognised and has sort of moved on. And although I have moved on and
I do feel very sad about it. Like really sad. And now that I have written that here I am going to have to tell J tonight, which is the right thing to do, but I think he might be cross that I'm bringing it up again.


He still feels that he can't have his gripes. So many gripes he makes are in the form of a DJ or AO. He knows how to do it the right way and this time I was so so so so so so available to him before he went. But maybe he made the assumption that because I was in a bad way he didn't want to burden me with his woes. I need to work on my mind reading skills a little more, I mean that in a nice way.

I was exceptionally proud of him today and made a point of it. We were bringing the pup home in slow moving traffic. J looked over his shoulder and went into the back of the van in front (only damaged our car).

This is how he dealt with it:

"ar5e" (muttered under his breath)
got out and went to see the other driver, decided detail exchange not necessary.

Got back in car (clutching smashed number plate). said " we need a new front end" with a sort of shrug.

drove off

and when DS asked "why did you crash?" (like a 4 yo would)

J said "I wasn't concentrating"


Now then. How is that for taking responsibility? Not: the puppy made a noise. or the man in front stopped too quick. Just " I wasn't concentrating".

I didn't get the blame for not keeping the puppy quiet. The puppy didn't get the blame and not once... And I mean not once did I feel any anger from him, only a bit of annoyance at himself.

Last week that would D E F I N I T E L Y have been my fault or someone elses.


The women's safety lady comes to see me on Friday. Only 6 months too late!

We had a great few days away: Getting up late, watching the olympics and other telly, shopping, coffees with mufins, eating out and masses of bread and cheese in the evenings.

And now we have Ted...

who so far is good as gold - I hope he sleeps tonight - his brother was up every hour his first night in his new home.

WOW ST - that is HUGE HUGE...the no anger at the accident.

I mean - thats huge....excellent!!

keepingyou in my prayres..

hope your back is better - mine isnt yet but - i am learning to do stuff in a different way and it is helping. Shouldnt you update your status you ARE a whole year older than me