LLL, good move. I am sure you will not stay there and sit and wait for his reaction. To be honest, I do not think he will have any. He seems too levelled headed. Anyone who acts like your H, leaving you without any contact or apology has been planning this for a while. My H was planning and he is acting just like yours.
My gist is that your H was planning to leave you for a while and was waiting for HP to get her Ph.D. then move out and spin a tale that he and she hooked up later on and are now in love.Well, you burst that plan.
be strong
blessing

Sister is moving in today for a week. I'm having locksmith in to change locks on house today. Attorney has given his blessing on this given the length of time H has been gone and documentation of H's behavior. Also having security company look at the system again and update so I have a panic alarm in certain areas. I really think this is not going to be a problem with him, but its good in general as I am a single woman living in this house. May sharpen dogs' teeth.......ha.

Sister and I will work on boxing up the rest of husband's clothes and personal items today and tomorrow and I will put them in garage pending whatever .....thinking about moving them to storage facility and telling them to bill H.

This afternoon we're going shopping. I'm going to buy new bedroom furniture and redecorate the bedroom totally as soon as I can find what I want. Want no hint of his taste in there.

Talked with attorney yesterday again. He wanted to make sure I'm really wanting to have husband served in class Tuesday. He cautioned me that I may be starting a "war". I told him I didn't start this, but I want control over how it ends.

H must be having his mailing address changed because the volume of things coming to the house for him has reduced dramatically. He's out there taking steps to move on obviously.

I'm ok. Maybe it'll hit me later, but I'm getting used to being without him. I can only think of him now as the loser who was willing to cheat, lie and betray me after years of what I considered and I think he did too, a pretty great life together.

I am lucky. I don't need him financially and it gives me the freedom to look at purely the relationship issues and decide what I should do. I worry about the women on this site and in general who are trapped by being financially dependent on their H's. If I had daughters, I'd teach them to enter into marriage as equals and to always, always, maintain their own independence and ability to walk away if necessary. To me, a relationship would be even more valuable if both parties realized that they were staying out of a desire to be together rather than financial need. I know this is not possible for everyone due to the reality of individual levels of income and career areas, but it is something to aspire to, I think.

LLL it sounds like you have a more positive outlook on the situation than many in your shoes have had. You definitely are a strong woman.

I sometimes think that staying with someone for financial reasons is an excuse. I made the decision to try and R our M. If I had decided to go with plan D right away I wouldn't have worried so much about the financial part. Then again I have a career with a decent salary so maybe if I SAH it would be different.

I was brought up with the need for financial independence drummed into me, and indeed have only ever had one three-month period when I had no earned income at all, after I had my first child. I have been able to think about divorce since my H's affair without feeling trapped into staying because of poverty. I do appreciate my financial independence from my H.

However, I realise through reading Dr Harley that people should enter marriage as buyers; with an all-in attitude. Keeping open the ability to walk away is adopting a renter's attitude, and that is not good for a successful marriage.

I find this to be a real dilemma. I have had a well-paid job with child-friendly hours for 15 years, but I regret not having been a SAHM with either child. I had the best childminder in the world for 17 years, and yet still I would prefer to have brought up my children myself.

I think the financial independence in our marriage helped create the conditions for the independent behaviour that facilitated the affair. My H had his bank account, I had mine, and we had a joint one. From my H's separate back account (and credit card) he was buying expensive jewellery and paying for flights to European cities to see his girlfriend, and I never even noticed the lost family income.

Independence of all kinds is good when it comes to divorce, but not good for marriage, I now think. So what to tell my daughter?

My mom drummed it in me to be independant always BUT alas, I am not.

I married fresh out of college and kept having babies and between recovering from childbirth (took me a year each time) and taking care of the crew..........I never had a separate career.

I don't regret a moment though.

Those kids are amazing people. I enjoy each moment with them.

I do have to worry about my financial future though.

After reading Sugar's comment I wondered about this. There were years I was a SAHM and financially independent. Suzy Orman says the day after the D many women find themselves poor. Maya Angelou writes women should have their own account for what she wants when needed and have enough to walk away if ever needed. I believe too many women give up so much of themselves after marriage (sacrifice oneself) for house, kids and husband. Over time they lose who they were or wanted to be (authentic self). LLL is a good example of living authentically - even if she wasn't financially well - she would still find the courage to move forward as she is doing.

Gg

You aren't 'lucky' LLL. You are in the position you are in due to life choices and a life of hard work.

I am probably one of the women you would consider financially dependent upon my now XH. I have been a SAHM for 10 years. However, in all that time, during which most of my marriage was in terrible shape, I NEVER felt trapped by my lack of earning power.

HE believed he had me trapped I think. Many people looking at our situation probably thought I stayed for the money. Nothing could be further from the truth. I stayed because I didn't want to see my family broken and my son subjected to other women. The instant I knew for a fact that he was indeed involved in an affair I hired a PI to get proof, filed for a divorce and kicked him to the curb.

All that to say...although there is nothing wrong with encouraging young girls to get an education and be self-sufficient, I will never regret my efforts to build a home and family as a SAHM. I homeschool my 9 year old--so I have a tricky situation ahead of me. Do I put him in school and go back to work? Do I find something to do from home in order to continue homeschooling? Where will we live when my nice big home sells and I divide the equity with my WXH? For sure I will be downsizing. Lots of changes ahead and lots of decisions to be made. And believe me ALL of those things flashed in front of my eyes when I knew my husband was cheating and YET I still did not hesitate to divorce him.

So although I am happy you are financially independent and secure, I don't want you to worry too much about those of us out here who aren't.

I have given this a lot of thought too. I think it is possible to have an all-in attitude without feeling trapped.



This is where I am right now. I have no regrets in quitting my job to be a SAHM and raise my own child.


And I think that my husband developed a sense of entitlement due to being the sole breadwinner in our marriage and thus the IB that facilitated the affair. Basically, Waywards will be waywards...and they will find a way to justify it.



I love this thought.....and I think it is the EXACT thought you should tell your daughter. I think that our decisions about education, careers, and whether or not to be a SAHM should be based upon our desires, not upon our fears of the future and what any spouse has the capacity to do to us.

LLL,

I admire your strength and conviction. I think you are making the right decisions for your situation.

I am financially independent, but decided to attempt R with my H. We have been struggling for about 22 months now. It has been very, very tough. And my H did several things to try to R the M - left his job, moved, etc. only to initiate contact 15 months after NC.

Best wishes, especially this week.

AM

Tell her she not to ever do anything halfass. and that GOD says she is just as important as any man so be on his team either way cuz hes got her back.
I agreed that nobody was more motivated to care for the children than Mom so I was very happy to support the whole family while she was a SAHM. But it was allways up to her and while the children were young Mom was not exhibiting emotional problems. In fact she was a stellar Mom and the family was strong as we adjusted to every financial need. It was my age and health that was at stake when the children were old enough to work themselves that caused us problems when I asked her to help by bringing in $ by working.
As much as I built her up and encoureged her all of our relationship how she was smart enough to be a scientist/Doctor class professional she just didn't do well in the area of seperating work/income from family life/home without drinking, which of course was an area she refused to address with professional help. It would have been fine if she could never had worked outside the home, but, she wanted stuff and a house and she wanted it right now so she made the choice that she deserved it and I was expendable. Exactly opposite what what we had taught the kids and thank God they knew it internally and were strong enough to adjust to truth as Mom deteriorated.

My point is that some women get brainwashed into thinking they have to depend on Hubby and some make the choice to do so. Even if H encourages them they can or might decide that they are right to what I would call "sell" themselves into slavery to be taken care of. I had hoped that after the kids were grown and my wife could see how well they turned out that she would seek counsel to find out how to deal with a life outside the home. Work, counselling,school or whatever she wanted. She chose instead to assume entitlement and look to sell her looks for a relapse into dependancy that I thought was an issue I was working so hard to protect her from. I allowed it to be in the past and looked at her with eyes that saw who she really was. A woman God created with a free will to make choices and learn from them.
I didn't brainwash her into the poor mindset but past experiances with her family and life are very powerful influences in anybodys life. In My wifes case it was easier to seek ppl who worshipped the God of entitlement, bitterness, getting thier fair share and of course to live in denial. We did the best as her family to encourage her to seek help and we had some success but allways respected her freedom to choose. A freedom denied her as a child by her F*ed up family. So sad, she fought well as she could with the tools she had. Its a good comparison of personal counselling being like "re-parenting".

Summary is that I would wish that every woman would feel free to act without fear in every aspect of thier lives. Anybody, Hubby, Preacher, or Teacher who seeks to control them by making them subservient to thier needs, fears, false ideologies or master plans by intimidation should take a flying leap. If a woman wants to be a SAHM while the kids are young then jump in full force knowing its an option she can change at anytime and Hubby better support her in that too. She also should be supported by the rest of society if Hubby pulls a stunt and deserts her untill she can get on her feet and her children are grown. Then the best revenge is living well.

Well, gg, I wouldn't take any marriage advice from Maya Angelou. I believe she was married for about 6 weeks once and left because she didn't like being expected to wash shirts.

Women don't have to look at marriage like this. I believe that this kind of self-centred talk is often used as justification for walking out to "find yourself", or indeed, having an affair.

A home, kids and a husband to love and be loved by are a privilege, in my view, and I and I am very lucky to have had them all. If a woman feels that she has lost her authentic self after marriage and motherhood there are many ways that she could get it back. Volunteering at a hospice would be a good start.

Sugarcane, that is very, very astute of you. I believe you have nailed the issue exactly. I was raised by a liberal, radical feminist and we were taught to look down on women who were not financially independent and did not place their careers before their families. We were told that divorce is so prevalent that we could not count on some man. We were not taught to be financially dependent.

Therefore, all of the women in my family went into marriage with an independent, renters attitude that destroyed our marriages. Out of 5 of us, 4 have been married 2-4 times, 1 has been married 1x but her long marriage is plagued with independent behavior, adultery, alcoholism, drug addiction, that always put everything before her marriage and family.

When one creates an interdependent, BUYERS marriage, they tend to take better care of it and probably use better judgement in making the selection. In my upbringing, nothing more significant than the feeling of the moment was taken into consideration, because we expected to move on when the romance died. [father married 8 times, mother 2 times]

In keeping with the train of thought around buyers, renters and freeloaders - think INSURANCE.

When you are a buyer, you also purchase insurance against risk of loss - like fire, flood, wind, vandalism and theft.

When you rent, you also buy "renters insurance" to protect against loss of personal property. Freeloaders buy no protection at all, because they have nothing at risk.

So if financial independence/security is something women do as an insurance policy against risk of loss, it is a very smart thing to teach your children. Especially your daughters.

There are risks of loss other than divorce or waywardness - you could wind up a widow - my neighbor lost her very faithful husband to colon cancer at age 46; she'd been a SAHM. Financial security/ability to earn, or savings are the only hedge against that risk.

Retaining or building the skills in your first years of and throughout your marriage is very responsible; your ability to establish and enforce boundaries of extraordinary precautions is dependent upon your ability to fall back onto your insurance policy if your partner commits marital fraud.

And as with any insurance, you don't want to over-use due to increased premiums. So if you are a buyers, you work to repair as much damage as you can and see if the forces causing the damage can stop themselves from harming your marriage in the future.

Just so you know; it's not contradictory to be a buyer, and have insurance at the same time.

I believe that without question you should be financially independant so that money does not become the BS issue ppl use when they deal with affairs of the heart..

"Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasars" Christ said as he asked the pharasee to show him the coin he had in his pocket. He wasnt supposed to have that coin. It was illegal in his religiuos beliefs to carry around a graven image but here he was, questioning Jesus when he was being set free from his fear and chain to money he had within himself.

if you mix a simple need to have money to survive with the rules of love in a marriage you will cripple the marriage IMO. You should allready be responsible and strong enuogh to take care of yourself before and after you get involved with someone or you are selling your heart for money and you are not ready for marriage. If you love someone money is a small thing.

How healthy can a marriage be when both spouses put careers first, have separate money throughout the marriage, have no kids?

People that live like this can never be buyers. Maybe renters.
Most likely just free loaders.

Me first mentality. Keep everything separate so the lease, err I mean, an easy break can be made when desired.

Perhaps if the spouses have an understanding or work in the same career, no children are needed. You don't need kids for a buyers' relationship.

I don't want children, and want a career. But I want (eventually) a good marriage. Does this make me a renter? Of course not.

If couples can use MB methods, and have POJA'd separate money and such, I don't see the problem.

Accually having your own children does not matter to me either. I had allways entertained adoption as a young man because I witnessed so many Poor parents.

I also think that if a POJA exists between them about what is important to them and its careers then that is perfect for them and a true sign that they are practicing good marriage habits and being responsible adults. Ens can change and over the years they might go from hot sex to Domestic support as we all change. We will change and grow, the good practices of MB ensure we will grow together in the same direction. The good practices of society and being socialy responsible will ensure that we will grow up. They are two separate disciplines IMO.
MB for a close realationship with your spouse. Moral standards to be safe and balanced in any relationship. I doubt that MB will be easy if the moral character is way out of whack though.
Enforcing MB standards make us take a look at ourselves and what we really value and sometimes ppl need to seek change within themselves because the challange of building a healthy and fair marriage forces them to.
Thats where the professionals come in like Dr. Harley. He and his crew are experianced therapists who can see what needs to be done. The rest of us layman simply express the opinions and experiences of the vast social network of imperfect people who can share and identify with others. We see some of the picture and may be right in some of our assumptions but the best thing we can accomplish is verifing that we all share humanity and faliability as we support each other and stand for the truth as we see it.

Money has its place in life and anyone who doesn't recognize that is in trouble. The responsible handling of money is the issue that escapes many ppl. Money is like the mothers milk of power. A concentrated power that can be used for whatever we want to use it to feed. What good is it if we don't use it to help and support each other? We should be putting the resources we have into things that bring life into the world. Not nessesarily just physical life, but spiritual life into people who are allready here. Hoarding money is what was being addressed when the scripture "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil" was said. Its an example of someone who just loved the power and security of money with no plans of what they would use it for. They were driven by fear of loss of power alone and power without a plan is dangerous especially when undefined fear is present. again My read on this beacause of my observations of ppl who have more money than brains. Saving money for a rainy day and making sure you have some saved if a spouse should somehow lose their mind is something I would not begrudge anyone who I was with. I could recieve a bonk to the head or fall into some poor thinking even if I did the best I could to avoid it. I don't trust anyone that much to put myself or anyone I loved in the position of bankrupcy and destitution.

I was a career oriented guy and support anyone who is. My career was going to be for my own self-image as well as the way I would support my life with wife and family. I would be lying if I said it doesn't matter to me that after all these years I don't have a profession that I can be proud of and an identity outside of taking care of my wife and family. I worked very hard to support my family and pushed myself to the point of physical and emotional sickness to attempt to be everything I could for them as we all waited for a miracle that would never come that would be career and financial success. All my decisions were geared towards my familys emotional and physical health and for whatever reasons, stupid or not, I am in this position now, my intentions were right on. I didn't have to end up like this and I don't blame anyone other than my own self but I know I made the right decisions at the time as I thought were the best for everyone.

I would spend my last dime to invest in what is good and right in life. Its an honor to support my children and give them good things and I hope to leave them with some. The best things will be the emotional security they have by seeing me love them and be willing to give my life for them if nessesary. By life I don't just mean physical life but also my concept of what i believe is a good life to me. I will gladly lose comfort and concepts to ensure that they have a future. In this my poor messed up wife and I were one on. We just made some great mistakes in judgement.
This is to me why the bible talks about money so much and attempts to teach us balance with it. Money is just mans tool and invention and concept. Its a good tool if its used for good and a bad one if used for bad, just like a rifle.

Its still nothing but a thing.

I am also fortunate enough to be financially independent without WXH and I worry terribly about those of you who aren't. It's not just the stories I read here, but women I've met in real life. I have a friend who's d-day happened when she went home and found all of her personal belongings on the front lawn. She had $10 in her pocket, no where to go and had not worked in 20 years as she was a SAHM of 3 with the youngest being 16. Her WH had already moved OW in and kicked her out while she was out running errands. He was a very controlling man - she had no credit cards and her name wasn't on the bank account. If she needed gas, he'd give her $20. Of course, the courts worked it out for her, but she was homeless for a few months waiting for that process. It was terrible. She turned grey before our eyes.

Same thing happened to the woman who bought my house. In fact, she almost didn't qualify for a mortgage because she had no credit history whatsoever. Everything was in her WH's name. She was completely off the grid, though she did work. Because she had a job, she qualified, but she had to take a higher interest rate. Very tough for a single mom of 2 small kids.

I understand the buyer/renter analogy, but given that 50% of marriages end in divorce, if I had a daughter I would teach her to be independent, at least financially. I am so thankful I was able to support myself when WXH left.

I resent this comment. I was absolutely a buyer in our relationship, even before marriage. I believe, now that I have the knowledge, that WS was always a renter. We have no children, by choice. My WS career is very important to him, mine less so but as we both earned individually more than most couples, it was never necessary to pool our resources into a single bank account.

We had a healthy relationship for 20 years. There arn't many married double buyers with kids and joint bank accounts that last that long!

TM