BFD!!!!!!!!!!

She'll get over it! Stop treating your WW with kid gloves. The only way that you will get her to overcome her sense of entitlement is to stop acting like she's entitled to anything.

You are a married man, start acting like it. Live in your marital home. Go on family vacations. Your kids must think you are abandoning them and their mother. Be a positive role model. Show them how to do the hard work of maintaining a marriage, not running away from problems.

I very much agree with "having a plan" to move back home.

I've had friends here that went off half-cocked and tried to move back home merely with a bag of clothes in their hand on a night when everyone was home. His wife called the cops and somehow he just allowed the police to talk him into leaving for the night. She filed the next day and blew the whole thing up as some mean old stunt the BH pulled that was thoughtless and cruel to the children.

Such things CAN and do happen. He WAS within his rights to do what he did but he didn't do it effectively and his unrepentent WW turned the tables on him. Right doesn't mean it will work.

This is a dangerous road HOWEVER, in my opinion, it's no more dangerous than the road to divorce YOU ARE ALREADY ON.

Whatever you do...don't think you can speak to your wife and get her to POJA you moving back home. There is no bargaining with a terrorist and she has no idea what she wants. I think it's best for you to move back in while your wife is gone such that when she comes back you have COMPLETELY and UTTERLY moved EVERYTHING back into it's proper place. Your socks and underwear are folded in their drawers. Every stitch of clothing is hanging back in it's place. Leave NOTHING personal in the apartment. Move back in as though you INTEND TO STAY.

1. This disables her ability to think she has a choice in the matter. If you half-measure it she will STOP you in your tracks and turn you away with manipulation tactics.

2. If the she calls the police...you live there and all your stuff is there. There's no notion that you are visiting and she can kick you out. You LIVE there and aren't just there with a bag of clothes trying to claim you live there. (good idea to have a digitil recorder in your pocket or one of those recordable MP3 wristwatches [link on the spying 101 thread])

3. It's A LOT harder to reverse the decision you made. You'll be more confident and adament knowing it's a lot harder for you to just turn and walk out than if you just had a singular bag of clothes. You'll have a lot more conviction as the effort you undertook to move in makes you more vested in the "feeling" you MUST stay. Feelings follow action...remember.

4. NOW...you've moved back in covertly without traumatizing the children...you'll be arguing that moving back out will actually traumatize the children AGAIN as SHE will be forcing you out and making you pack up everything again IN FRONT OF THE KIDS. Which you refuse to do. Argue...she wants to try well this is YOUR plan for trying to reconcile...ask her what her plan was...she'll him and haw but won't have a specific plan.

Maybe you move back home when she leaves town for 3 or 4 days coming up. Isn't she going with girlfriends? Thus, you'll have the kids? You explain to the kids the WHOLE TRUTH when they are gone and that you are moving home to give Mom another chance. Thus...the first argument when she enters the door upset that you've moved home will immediately be put back in her lap. The "how could you do this to the children" will be met with "I've already explained the situation to them and told them I'm moving back in to give you another chance despite the fact you committed adultery against me". I don't know if you want to take the confrontation to that level or not; however, CONFLICT is the road to intimacy. You living in an apartment is complete withdrawal and will NOT get you into an intimate relationship again with your wife.

CONFLICT IS THE ONLY WAY.

Mr. Wondering

You living apart and being unable to reconnect with your WW (because you live apart) will only reinforce her belief that you can't work it out and should divorce. Right now your best path home is actually going home.

Thank you all so much. My wife won't be going to Italy for a couple of months (with the kids) and I really wanted to use that as the opportunity to move in. It will give her a bit more withdrawal time (I can't stand seeing her depressed over another man) and make arrangements with movers landlord etc. It will also give me a bit more time to Plan A her, albeit not as well as I would like to due to the seperation. So here is my question! While still be seperated, how aggressive should I be in have contact with her? Some tell me to wait until she calls or texts. Others say contact her every other day. I'm really trying to look at how I can met her needs until I force my way back in to hopefully start having her change some of the old images of me in her head and she doesn't immediately demand divorce or call the cops. One other aspect. Her counselor told her she is in MLC. She is not only depressed about the OM but about her life in general. Not sure how this changes the interaction. I know on divorce busting they have a slightly different style. I'm still trying to figure out where she is coming from. The other day she said she loves me and was actually emphatic about it but mentioedn something about her not being interested in sex and how she hates it when she snaps at me for no reason. Not sure how to deal with these things.

To be clear...

In my opinion...two months from now is WAY to long.

By March 7th is more along the lines of what I was trying to suggest.

The longer you wait the more settled and comfortable alone she (and the kids) are becoming.

Get your butt home...and don't give in to her manipulations. It may take a day or two for her to just accept that you are home and give up trying to force you back out if you prepare yourself mentally for the challenge of verbal combat. (don't forget it COULD be easy...maybe she won't hate the concept once you are there) Again, in the end, you have every legal, moral and ethical right to be there. She can't really make you leave unless you hit her or she claims you hit her.

Mr. Wondering

AMEN!

Read that again and again, FP!

Commit it to memory.

You are lucky to have Mr. Wondering and Jim giving you advice. You would be extremely foolish not to take it.

I agree w/ everything they've said.

Get your butt home...quickly!

Yeah, she's going to play the "Now you've really done it!" card. But, that's only b/c she doesn't know you've got a NEW card in your hand!

The MANUP card! THAT card will always trump hers.

It's a secret that all entitled women THINK they don't want their man to know about. But, the TRUTH is that women are happiest when their men stand up to them. And won't fall for their nonsense.

Move back home.

FOUR MONTHS OF NC BROKEN

Funny how things work. I just did a check on my W's e-mail account and their was an attachement. She sent it to her friend for review. I haven't seen the attachement (I can't pick it up at work) but her freind responded with

Wow - very good- the only thing I would change is in the paragraph before you talk about going to (the principal) where you say I let me believe you loved me- I would also say you told me you loved me. Other than that Wow. It's not going to make a difference but at least he will hear it - jerk.

As the friggin world turns. This was inevitable considering they work together. I can't bring this to my wifes attention because then she will know I have her passwords and I WILL not let her in on my secret.

Wow...Floridapad- do you realize with what kind of idiots you are dealing with here!??
Just from that email it is easy to tell that both your WW and OM have not much in between their ears.
Ehi, are you sure you want to save this M?
blessing

Who works together? WW and OM?

WW and OM work at the same school! her e-mail was to her female friend not the OM. The e-mail had an attachment.

I went to the UPS store to borrow one of their computers and the gist of the attachment which she was going to send to the OM was somoething like this

It's cowardice to let our "friend" (a go between at school) do your dirty work for you. You talking to the principal and putting my job in jeapordy was going across the line"

There was other name calling and professions of hatred. She also said "I know you don't want to talk to me and I don't want to talk to you either and we have avoided each other all this time, but you crossed the line going to the principal now" (I wish I knew what she is referring to).

She took a shot at him for lying to her and his wife (duh!). All in ait was a very ugly venemous e-mail. A venting e-mail for him going to the principal about something.

I pick up the kids tonight and will give her the "are you alright. You look really down!" and see if she opens up. I doubt it but we'll see.

Sounds to me like his wife had some balls and exposed.

Why would you allow your wife to work with her lover?

1. It's not verified contact...yet, as it's a draft she may never actually send it.

2. If she sends it it's risky that real contact may resume HOWEVER, it appears to be more of a "closure letter/email" than a real contact letter.

"Closure letters" are TERRIBLE ideas but they are also VERY COMMON.

She is airring her grievances to the OM. She can't believe he said he loved her and then dumped her. Her brain can't wrap around the fact that she risked EVERYTHING for his stated love of her and it appears [shockingly] that he lied. NOW...she's processed to the point where she THINKS he's a jerk but she's not quite sure so why not ONE last email to him, calling him a jerk and see if he has any decency in his body and resume "talking" with her.

It's a last ditch effort...a hail mary

She likely even told him that she's separated and still available if he's willing (which is why she's kept you at a distance as it provides her the ability to APPEAR completely available in case OM changes his mind OR OM's wife throws him out).

3. In my opinion...these "Closure Contacts" aren't quite the "withdrawal setback" one may at first think. IF OM doesn't respond or merely says "leave me alone" as he should (a big "if")...then your wife MAY actually make progress moving THROUGH withdrawal as she'll finally hang up having ANYTHING to do with OM. She'll convince herself that he is and was a JERK (notice the foggy thinking which fails to address just how much of a jerk SHE IS/WAS). This "progress" may, in fact, benefit you as she'll have hopefully begin to take stock of the things in her life she DOES have.

4. Being "second best" or a "backup plan" to OM can sometimes seem humiliating to BH's; however, it's only a temporary status. If and when you truly recover, your WW will see that YOU were always the #1 love of her life and she was temporarily delusional. It takes self-confidence but it will behoove you to believe that as well. It's OK if she FEELS your second choice for awhile as long as the end goal is for her to fall back in love with you, create a marriage of extra-orinary care wherein she will realize what you already know today. YOU are her true soul-mate.


If you are in communication with OM's wife you may want to tell her to be on the lookout for contact. I guess you can't give her specifics but at some point in time you're gonna have to risk your source. There are always other sources (check spying 101 thread) and, once you save your marriage...resistance to snooping really isn't an issue anymore.

Finally...back to the moving home in the next two weeks issue. I'd recommend that your plan include the liklihood that you will be revealling to her what you know she wrote and that you saw that email. In the battle to get you to move back out she will no doubt try to claim that the affair is wayyyyy over and she wants you to stay out so she can continue thinking or whatever. It will be great to refute that with knowledge of a "love note" she sent OM just this week. Your argument then takes the tact that you've tried giving her space and hoping she agrees to reconciliation but that IS NOT working as she is still sending notes and emails to OM. Since living seperate isn't working...you are going to try to reconcile living there. IF she chooses to leave and go to the apartment herself...she is free to go (there's only a bed and maybe a dresser there...nothing else of yours remains).

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

Another thought...

You NEVER really have to reveal your sources. Waywards often DEMAND to know where you got your information. If they feel they can get you to cave...they will go to extremes to get such information SO THEY CAN GET AROUND IT THEREAFTER.

Don't tell her and, most effectively, hint that it was obtained from another person and you don't want to drag others into your marital problems (which is borrowing one of HER favored arguments) as this is the best because then she will not know who she can trust.

Was it OM's wife?
Was it the girlfriend?
Was it the girlfriend's boyfriend?
Was it someone else?

She will focus on WHO instead of her own emails and computer.


Also...the attachment. Did you try to locate it on the computer? Did you do a sytem search of a key word like "princial" or something as it MAY have been saved in a temp or hidden file somewhere (computers run backup copies all the time).

Do you have a keylogger on her computer? If so, even if she gets crafty and changes her password you can stick get the new password.

Mr. Wondering

Mr Wondering. Thank you so much. Such incredible insight. The OM is completely done with the A and my W is done but I think she is trying to still validate the relationship in that her self esteem won't allow her to believe that the OM truly didn't love her even though he said it at the end. The OM didn't want to leave his wife and is doing EERYTHING to avoid my W at school. I'm not sure why he went to the principal.

My W did send the attachement to the OM through an intermediary. I verified that in an e-mail I just saw to her female friend. The attahement/letter to the OM was highly venemous, and spoke about what a coward he is for going to the principal (about what I don't know). No doubt the affair is over and she has no desire to be with him but she still doesn't want that poor self esteem to be hit by the thought she was deceived this whole time and the magical "relationship" they had was all smoke and mirrors and a bunch of really high feelings.

If anything his recent actions continue to allow her to see him for who he is. At some point she will not be able to lie to herself about the validity of the relationship just because it felt "right". It's odd. She seemed to try and validate an invalid relationship yet invalidate a valid marriage. How to get her to reverse that is the question.

I am really processing everything you say. The moving bacvk in is the big one. I don't want to force my way back in without her knowing. I agree. I need to get back in the house but how and when is what I am struggling with.

Now I am going to be honest with you all about something. I have lost an enormous amount of respect for my W now as I see her still trying to validate her affair. I really need to "it's alien speak" from you guys. One of my fears about moving into the house is that I have lost respect and if she does not wake up and see the affair for what it is/was I will not be able to reconcile. This is my internal dilemma.

Yes, that is a possibility.

OTOH, if you don't move back home and your WW files for D, the courts will say you abandoned your children, and will give her custody.

It is TOTALLY alien speak. She is still foggy and wayward thinking. She cares more about her image and 'looking good' than she does about the important things, like true love (love is an action not a feeling). She'll be mortified when she defogs.

I wouldn't reveal to her that you know about this last email, unless you only say that you heard through the grapevine that she was sending messages to OM through other people. Then use Mr W's tactic of NOT revealing your sources and saying you don't want to drag others into things. That is brilliant. She *will* focus on who told you, rather than what methods you used to find out.

I wouldn't reveal that you know the contents at all, only that you know she is sending him messages - notes, emails, texts, some kind of messages.

You may choose not to reveal anything at this point, because truly she is love busting him all over the place and you may be better off just sitting back and enjoying the show. Her venom is going to make OM run for the hills. I'd just let it play out and keep snooping, personally.

What do you mean "force your way back in"?
It is your house.
You pay the mortgage.
You have the key.
Move in.

Marshmallow. In Florida it would not be considered abandonment if I continued to pay for their shelter food etc and saw them on a regularly scheduled basis, which I am. (Spoke to an attorney about this). Thanks for keeping your eye out for me though.

Turtlehead - I'm not going to mention it. Yes she is love busting him but the better thing is that HE is love busting her with his latest actions at the principals. That is the critical piece. For her to be love busted. I do have a plan to approach the topic. I pick up the kids today and I'm going to tell her she seems out of place and ask her if she is ok. She will say a bunch of BS like I'm fine or just tired. I will say sorry to hear that. Then I'm going to bring up something she said a week or two ago. She said that the OM did not lie to his wife per se. I didn't confront her on it but now I am going to tell her that has been bothering me because it seems like you are putting him on a pedestal and don't want to believe he lied to anyone. In light of the recent events today I think it will get the point across.

Turtlehead - I hear where you are coming from. I really need to devise a plan that minimizes damage or prevents her from going nuts. I know its my house but I've heard where men move back in and the wife calls the cops and says he hit her. Happened to a frined of mine actually. My wife is not this type but this needs to be done right in order to minimize this risk. You may think I'm a [censored] and perhaps I am but I am a very cautious man. I don't mind rocking the boat but I want to make sure I don't tip the whole thing over and have it sink.

Carry a voice activated digital recorder with you, and leave it on when you come in. That way if she reacts the way you describe, she's the one going to jail. That will knock her entitlement down a notch or two as well as hurt her in court if it does go to divorce.

There, problem solved. Now move back home.

I'd not mention OM at all. Let her suffer on her own. If you bring him up she will just get angry with YOU. You'll be much better off doing a gangbusters Plan A. Meeting her ENs, being fun, upbeat. That will make a much larger impression on her (the contrast between wonderful you and horrible OM) than if you bring him up. If you bring up OM she will feel nagged and harrassed. Be fun and wonderful instead.

Your caution about her anger is well founded. Women *do* fake domestic violence reports to get the man kicked out of the house. Carry a recorder with you and have a friend around if possible to defuse the situation.