Dryspell, you have been cheating on your wife for a while now and it is interesting that all you say on MB anymore is more justification for your affairs.

Has your wife discovered your other lovers yet? Or are you still lying and sneaking around.

Ok I"m sorry

I meant fidelity in the personal relationship. I didn't know that fidelity was just about sex. But thats ws what I meant anyways. My apoligys
I am/was a high sexdrive guy and I felt still feel that its OK to be that way.

The emotional trueness, faithfullness, harmony,interdependance,
(I used the word fidelity before cuz I thought thats what it meant),
..is to me ,
(even though I really really really like sex and to me it makes me feel loved and accepted and whole as a Man and a relationship partner,...),
is not only more imporatant but brings about sex naturally.


To me if there is never a sexual desire than there is probably something wrong. Its just how I "feel" about it. But my feelings "matter". So the question originally posed is valid and the poster is asking for opinions about expectations. My opinion about expectation is to not put the cart before the horse so to speak.

I told and remind my kids that to love someone occasionally means to take a positive action toward someone that has a blind spot and hurts you, occasionally .. Its what freinds do.

I also tell them that the friendship meaning trust, honesty, open communication an concern for each others well-being is the basis for a marriage that will last and more important than a hormonal desire for sex. Sexual desire is built into us, when the freindship is true, and those investments have been made first,...and you are willing to commit your time to that relationship and have a realistic expectation from God,....

(God being truth, light, the authority on love and sacrifice and the balance thereof),...

...then you should marry and commit before all the world with boldness and swear to your death to protect said life partner....

When you emotionally are so bonded and are together kids, don't worry, all your parts will work and sex will be much more than an orgasm or some performance level you compare to others like emotionally imature other people do sometimes. Sex is not a tool to "fix" a relationship, its the culmination of all the right things being in place because it brings life into this world.

Sex is so important to people it is worth waiting for and preparing a place in your relationship for so when you do sleep together it can be in total freedom of expression of your passion for your mate, a passion that further expresses your commitment to protect them which you allready both have demonstrated by your commitment to prepare a relationship based on truth,and love that grows because you are willing to go outside of your emotions to love someone even if sometimes they let you down or your emotions fool you into taking them for granted, as our selfish emotions can do at times.

So What I was saying was that even though sex is an awesome expression of love towards your mate if the other things are in place it will happen. But in my opinion, and its only an opinion, emotional harmony, (which I formerly used the word Fidelity for), is the most important element that will bring about sexual relations . If the individuals are healty phyisically and emotionally.

If they trust and desire to take care of each together then I am sure they will do there best to please each other in any way possible. Up and including going to the doctor for viagra or seeking counsel to for hormone therapy to emotional counsel to free themslves up sexually.

I believe that sexual relations should be the most spiritual relationship That we have with another human being, its wired into us men very much so and myself included. If I address the sex drive as the priority in my relationship I will miss the boat. Sexual fufillment is more like a litmus test. Even if I could not have sex but knew my wife would do anything to please me I would feel sexually fufilled. If she ignored my need or went outside of our relationship for sex ..DING DING..Red flag.
If we both do our part in caring for each other and are stable enough to realize that not just sex, but the chance to love someone is a priveledge we can experience life and when we do care for each others bodies in that so personal and private way its an extension of love, not love itself. LOve is something we learn how to do, we don't just naturally love people. We naturally desire sex and social interaction and we might feel comfortable around familiar circumstances but thats just habit and enviroment. Maybe we grew up or have experianced a good enviroment and/or we hope to give our children one right?
As adults we have the choice to create a positive enviroment or stay in a mindset that is afraid to change or to learn or to accept what we are not "used to". When we decide to enter into a relationship that involves closeness with another person to the point of sexual desire we have to be willing and able to give of ourselves and work to keep communication open at all times. This to me is more important than SF. and is what I meant by my original post.

I wouldn't even attempt or desire any relationship where sex wasn't an option, Its just not the first thing I would look for because I want my sexual relations to be as free as they can be when the time comes. If I bind myself with the rules of love then sex will be uninhibited,(like he Charlie Pride song, "Behind closed doors"), but the love will be my real prize.

So my expectation at this age ,(52), would be that she would be willing to explore therapy, hormone therapy can help female sexdrive. IcC counselling could help emotional issues. but I would mostly expect that if it is important to you, it should be important to her. As you guys explore that you will be practicing love IMO

Yes, sex outside of marriage is ADULTERY. It is a big deal. As Dr Harley has said over and over again, it is as traumatic as rape, the death of a child or physical assault. It is the cruelest thing one can do to his spouse. And there is NO excuse for it. NONE. Not getting needs met in a marriage is a signal to leave the marriage, not an excuse for adultery.

Oh I get this totally man lol. There are so many contributing factors here. My first wife and I met in high school and were rabbits. We got married at 18 and even though she knew I was not ready for kids she stopped taking the pill and became preg. Ok so after two years and having a toddler she must have pined for "the way it used to be" and now that I was a responsible adul and not a wild child she strayed. Guess in her case she got tired of playing house. So many young women do this.


SEcond wife talked a good game and was an awesom Mom but she was really only sexually turned on when she was chasing me or she was in her "wild child " mood herself. All rebelouos and ussually drinking.

I belive this but I have no proof. Women need to feel safe and free before they enjoy sex. Thats why 'candy is dandy but liquor is quiker"?. Its what they believe in thier hearts to be safe and not what you believe. My second wife had emotional issues that rquired acceptance from everyone. She was very insecure as an adult so she sought too much attention.

I think that the emotional release from sex for waywards is part of the gaurantee that the species survives and stepps in when we are not properly lined up with expectations. Ever see the ppl who bend over backwards only to be cheated on?
Or when someone is being treated like sex shouldn't mean so much to them but they need to fill all thier needs?

My late wife was doing OK when she hung around with people who wouldn't get bitter and whine about others. When she started to hang around with a women who "knew all about how men wer,they are like dogs, blah,blah and blah. Then my wife changed and would accually come to me and tell me how I was just like whatshernames husband. OMG itwas like the honeymooners episode where ralph blamed Ed for his problems when he stuck his head in Eds marrige. "Your sick marriage iseffecting my heathy one"

Its the company you keep. My wife was asked to stop haning around this girl and we/she was warned. My wife lost friends that would not partake of the negaivity and her "freind" eventually led her into her drugs of choice and ruined my wifessobriety. All becsue of pride ,bitterness and unrealistic expectations that resulted in selish ratioalization of her "right" to be happy. All this when she knew, or at least used to know, that happiness depends on what happens.

So why is sex good with the OM or OW? because its an abandon of crap we belilieve in our heads that was never supposed to be there in the first place. "If hubby would just buy me a car like she has" or "If wify would just let me [censored] and moan and still drop her drawers without me showing her I love her". Loss of communication and expectations that we link sex to in both sexes is one of the reasons I think and the constant bombardment by the media and advertising that the ultimate best thing in the world is to have sex or be desired sexually doesn't help either to be real or to put love first.

Frustration and abandon to our natural desire to be close to someon passionatly who we believe , lol ,"gets us"

I've been thinking about this a lot lately as it pertains to my own marriage. I always thought my husband was the higher need person and I would get anxious and frustrated about either not being able to keep up, or not turning in a quality performance (the 'just get it over with, I'm tired' factor), or...well a lot of other things. What I was doing was sabatoging my own interests and desires my concentrating on what he wanted instead of what I wanted. I let resentment, exhaustion, stress and anxiety invade this very personal part of our relationship. I used emotional intimacy as my weapon. Ironically, the frequency of SF was never terrible (not as much as he wanted, but an average of 2-3x/week or a bit more).

When I started to think about what I wanted in this area (thank you Marriage Builders), I realized that affection and SF go hand-in hand for me. That unless I was willing to air out and clean up my own dirty laundry, I'd never be able to help him clean his. So I started being very O&H about my emotional temperature.

I also began to realize that what my husband wanted was emotional intimacy as well. And as many have said here, SF is a way to get there. But he has no desire for SF if I'm just going to phone it in. And again, ironically, he is very happy with me being close and affectionate 24/7 and if the frequency of SF suffers as a result of stress, exhaustion, etc., etc., he's not unhappy.

Wow, what an eye opener. Of course, he's 53 now...probably this would not have been the same if he were 25!

But in his ENQ, he ranked Affection #1.

So I know that as long as I am filling this need for him, I dont' have to get worked up and all stressed out about whether he's going to want SF and I might be too tired to give it my all, thereby leading him to be frustrated, etc.

At the same time, I'm encouraging him to work with me on HOW we can make SF great for both of us. He's a night owl, I am not. Coming to bed at midnight and waking me up for SF is not a great strategy. Coming to bed at 10PM and then if he wants, getting up to read his book, putter around, or watch Letterman...well everyone's happy. I'm perfectly content to snuggle up to him at midnight or later and he's happy coming to bed with me at 10PM as long as he feels his night is not over and no one is telling him to "go to bed".

What I think I'm trying to say is that for us, affection and SF are very closely intertwined. Perhaps it is the case for other couples out there.

Agree. This is how it is in my marriage. Affection, admiration and an absence of lovebusters makes me more than willing to meet that need of my H. And you hit on something else that is key, OH. And that is timing. My H is MR Jump in bed at 9pm and I just cannot do that. I am a late nighter, so we have worked around this problem in a similar fashion.

Funny, I loved going to bed bed a 9 for sex and getting up later maybe. sometimes to study or work.

When I hit 38 or so and having most of my life consumed with being the only breadwinner i was working mostly round the clock and stopping to sleep.

Why? wife was 5'11" and medium build but she could not work as a banquet waitress because the "Trays were to heavy" Of curse she could be a cocktail waitress.

You guys probably share the burden of financial responsibility with yurhubbys. Thats so important for even us "work till we drop" guys

Why is this? It was a big deal with my husband too even though he made more than enough more to support us fine. I will never understand why he wanted me to go to work. I easily saved more by being home and being frugal than I coulde have made at a job---a job which would have made our family life very stressful and made more difficult for him to climb the corporate ladder like he did.

I just don't get it. We are divorced now, but he mentioned this in court...said I wouldn't 'help' him. I guess we had different ideas about what help meant.

The thing I don't understand is that SF is supposed to BE an EN in and of itself, but it is really treadted like a BYPRODUCT of the OTHER EN's. So is it a need or a byproduct? I am not being snarky. I just need to know this. It's been a long time since Nov. and before that August, etc. I have added 2+2 for a long time. When does 4 come?

The importance of this is your own subjective opinion. Perhaps it is very important for you, but it is not so important for some of the rest of us.

I think most needs are linked to others and are often the movtivation for that need. For example, when my H meets my need for DS, I am motivated to meet his for Admiration. The same with lovebusters. When I practice IB's, it triggers angry outburts from him.

With many men, PA is tied to their SF need. My H is sexually motivated by physical attractiveness. I am movtivated to have sex with him WHEN I feel emotionally attached to him. And the things that cause emotional attachment are meeting the most intimate ENs like affection and conversation. When I feel DETACHED or withdrawn from him, the thought of sex with him is disgusting to me.

Are you saying your H has not wanted sex in months? That is odd for a man. What do you think is the problem?

I feel bad T/J-ing, but there has been a 13-14 year discrepancy. It isn't meannes on his part. We are just really different. I go longs OK, then out of nowhere it suddenly just feels crushing and sad. Just going through a crushing and sad phase. This isn't a DJ of anyone at all, but it probably isn't likely to really change. I need a lot, he doesn't. I just have to figure it out. I don't want to whine. I really wish I weren't so weird. Most women are the opposite of this. blech.

I think SF is an EN. However, to a greater extent than pretty much any other EN, the spouse who rates this lower is rarely willing to fulfill their partner's need for SF unless their own ENs are already fulfilled and their partner refrains from LBs. That is, you may be able to get your spouse to continue paying the bills or mopping the floors if their needs are not being met consistenly, but you'll probably have a hard time getting them to have sex with you if they don't need it for themselves and their own needs are not being met.

Which does not guarantee that they WILL have sex with you when their needs are getting met. But it is almost certain they won't otherwise.

luroosi, has he been checked out by a doctor? Are you saying that you have sex 2-3 times a YEAR?

Well my wife had a drinking problem and I was the only breadwinner. We started poor and stayed that way reguardless of how many budgets I set up. When I did make enuf to get by it was still not enuf for her.

I understand what you are going thru tho. My Mom worked as soon as us kids were old enuf but my dad who was a workaholic. Up at 5 AM and to bed at 12 AM every day had a breakdown and acused my Mom of mismanaging money at the divorce. Thejudge awarded my mom the house and alimony because Dad just showed his true colors in court and he could see right thru him.

Whenever my wife did work in the marriage she would either spend the money on things outside the home or not come home. She stole or blew whatever nest egg we could start or would pull a stunt that would throw the marriage into turmoil every time I would have a stable job. I literally would scrounge for money to pay the rent or bills most of our marriage so I resented it as I had to work sometimes around the clock. I wanted to work to support my family and have some time to spend with them. I was proud to do it and enjoyed it fully. I desired to eventually go on vacations with them and take my wife to marriage retreats or just out once a week to dinner. I didn't have expensive toys or withhold any money from my family and would have enjoyed teamwork in the financial dept.

All I desired was to live within our means and I didn't care how much money we had or if we lived up to some status quo. The emotional stability of my wife and children has allways been my most important concern because I lived in a home where my father was allabout what he owned and what others thought about him and it destroyed his marriage and caused much pain to us all.

I realized after awhile that a lot of my wifes issues were very simalar to my fathers insecuritys. I think that I wanted to save my wife just like I wanted to save my father. The good news is that my children did not suffer as my wife and I did andthey know how much we loved them even though we were not perfect in all our actions. They also are respectable hard working consciensios young adults and I will allways be there for them and they know it.

My comment about my wife not working was more about her not working with me. I have never had a problem being the only breadwinner. I do have a problem with being lied to and stolen from when it effects the wholesomeness of my home or the safety of my/our children.

Markos..

I dont understand what was meant by being a subjective statement. It was short and probably insensitive because my wife is not here to defend herself and I apoligize for that. She had a lot of problems and unrealistic expectations that you probably dont want to hear about but what I said accually happened. I would like to hear what your explaination is but this thread was about sex,age,and expectations and I seem to have started a T/J so I will start a thread about subjective behavior tommoroww so I can understand what you mean if you would be so kind to educate me. Seriuosly I would love to learn how to understand about subjectivity because I have a little understanding but you seem to know more.

Thanks for your replys

Ah, now see this is TOTALLY different from what I thought you meant. I did work 'with' my XH...I am frugal...I saved us MUCH more than I could realistically make. I drove a 15 year old car and did without many things while HE bought the new $32K rig for his 'image' and did whatever he wanted. He was angry all the time though..he wanted me to work so we could have things like boats and lakehouses...


Don't want to speak for him, but I think what he means is that not ALL men need FS from their wives. It isn't a top EN for them. And honestly, once you explained yourself in your follow up post I don't think it is for you either.

yeah I was short in my reply and i can understand why it sounded so strange.

I still am gonnalookup subjective in the websters tho lol

I didn't think you sounded short, or else I missed a reply from you somewhere...

"Subjective" just means: "That's your opinion." You said it was important for guys that their wives share the burden of financial responsibility, and I'm just saying "Not for all guys; you're making a mistake if you're telling women that every man finds this important."

Yeah I see. I was adressing responsibility tho and not income. I was commenting in context to a previous poster but yes it was something that came out of a subjective mindset from my experiance.

Making the money is just a detail of life to me, something someone has to do. IN my case when I was refering to financial responsiblity it when we had little money to spare and I was allready working 2 jobs, it was not responsible for my wife to spend money on a whim, or give her family assets like one of our cars. In my case, although it wasn't ALLWAYS the case, The budget was ignored to spend money on something ":Whimsical" like decorating, when the rent was not yet made for the month. Those were in the good days. When she fell off the wagon it was worse.

I guess I could have thrown a fit but at the time I just let it happen because thier were worse fates I would suffer as well as the children if I caused a fuss, and I was probalbly tired also and Its widely known that if there is not enough money to spend on whatever, its the husbands fault,(yes , being a smart a$$ here).

So thats my recent experience, subjective absolutly, truthfully mark I wouldn't be here if it wasn't about me now.

I guess I should have explained myself better but I thought I already posted about myself earlier in the thread and I was just making a positive statement about them.

Thx for the response guy

So, back to the original thread topic, both the individual situation of "jungian", and the broader topic of what couples in their 50s and 60s should expect for SF... how much is physical, how much is emotional baggage, how much is habit, and how much is expectations that you should not be active?

Realizing that there is a physical decline in libido for many men and women, which may create new situations of discrepancies of interest, isn't that more reason for couples in their 40s and 50s to be proactive, and use MB to clean up the other emotional impediments to a happy and fulfilling love life, instead of waiting for a confrontation or walking out?