He is setting you up for the fall, jh, as opposed to saying "jh, I'm in love with Skankyho and I'm leaving you. Goodbye." He is thinking that it will hurt you less if he eases you into what he's doing.

Don't believe a word he says. Waywards lie. It's what they do. You're going to have to start snooping if you want the true scope of the A.

FWIW, the OW in my sitch did the same thing to her BS. She told him she "had feelings" for my FWH. Gee, yathink? They were up to their eyeballs in the A when she told him that one - because she thought my H was going to ride her off into the sunset!

Every time he sees her his feelings will be triggered. And there will come a day real soon when he acts on those feelings. And he won't be honest about it. It is just a matter of time. He will stay in a state of perpetual withdrawal and the affair will become more entrenched.

I have been here for 9 years and don't know of any marriage that recovered while the affairees continued to see each other. That is impossible. But I know of numerous affairs that were on-again, off again for YEARS. We have affairs here that have been ongoing for 4, 6, and 10 years becuase they thought they could get away with cutting this corner.

Your marriage will not recover until all contact ends, jh, I am sorry. Please go read sweetpea�s thread, she is in the same boat as you.

Jh: our stories are very familiar. you trust your WH, so did I. the thought that they would lie is unfathomable, but they do. the thought that they would have feelings for anyone other than us is horrific, but they do.

listen to the vets, it will be uncomfortable at best. you have a great start, he came to you, he is in counselling with you and he is still in your home: plan A him, vent on these boards and walk softly with a big stick.

trust but not blindly, snoop, snoop, snoop. there are many ways listed on these threads. the worst you will find is that he has lied to you. knowledge is power, the best: he hasn't and truly wants a better marriage for the both of you. listen to melody lane, pepperband, best advise you will receive.

hang in there, sounds like he wants you, your family and a better marriage. things will get real rocky, you have just been given a ticket for the worst rollercoaster ride you will ever take. take heart you are not alone.

jh, the best thing about someone in your position is that your WH hasn't (yet) made the decision to physically leave the marriage. That means you have a chance to recover it! If your H had just packed his things and moved out, it would be a whole lot harder.

And it may get harder. Just so you know.

The time is NOW to heed the advice of ML, Pep and others, and start PLANNING to recover your marriage!

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through he11. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

Post written by a former wayward wife:

No contact, lifechoice here

You need to think of OW as crack. She gives your H a "zing" even when he just glances at her...and he will be unable to get over these "feelings" as long as they work together.

My H had an EA with a coworker. He agreed to end all contact but continued to work with OW while looking for another job ~ same thing, they only saw each other 1-2 times a week. Even though we were making some progress, every time he just saw her, it would make him feel "confused" about me. It was so painful.

We are trying to save you a lot of heartache.

jh:

the OW in our situation got fired the end of April and WH and her still talked, texted, e-mailed everyday until June. that was hard enough for him to break. the whole time i'm plan Aing my butt off. if he would have still been able to "see" her physically everyday, he says now he would have ended up leaving the marriage.

listen to the vets, this affair is a drug like no other. even after he seemingly committed to our marriage, he had withdrawel horrible. it was as if all his air had been removed.

i think that was one of the hardest things for me to see. him go through these intense withdrawels, depression over not seeing or talking to someone he barely knew. the moment i realized he was willing to forsake me, not have those emotions for me. i kicked into high gear.

that is not to say he would not have felt them for me had he left, but you don't want it to get that far. cut him off at the pass now. read everything on this site, and work your plan with precision and focus. do not react to him on a daily basis. stay focused on the long term. he, like my WH may not even realize how entrenched he is in his feelings for her. mine wasn't until she was no longer available. it sucks in every way.

Thank you for all your posts. We just had a long talk and I realized how much he is struggling. I know that he loves me however he still has these feelings. He realizes that everyones life is on hold. Ours the OW my family etc. I just wish that he could say that yes I love you , I want you forget her and move on. I guess that it is hard to just turn off feelings. But at what point do I let the decision stay his. Me or her, then we can move on. Can't move on until he chooses!

This is the problem, jh, he has not chosen your marriage because he still sees his OW. And those feelings WONT CHANGE until he ends contact. They will get deeper and deeper.


Dr. Harley recommends waiting about 3-4 weeks and then going into Plan B, which is separation.

But before you do that, the affair should be exposed wide and far, without forewarning. The workplace, his parents, your children, family and friends. Everyone should know. It is your most potent weapon against the affair. Exposure

jh, beware of cakeeating. Many waywards will keep you BOTH on the line as long as possible because they love getting their needs met in TWO places. This will be devastating to your mental health. This is why Dr Harley, a clinical psychologist, recommends tolerating about 3-4 weeks of this. His affair is EXTREME ABUSE that can lead to nervous breakdowns and years of post traumatic stress disorder. If he wants to play that cruel game with your mind, I would start making plans NOW to separate.

My husband and I talk ed for awhile last night. He has agreed that no contact is the right thing. He is struggling between me and the OW though. Our counselor told him to make a list about what I give to him and what the OW gives to him He did this which impressed me, I was not sure he would follow through. He says the list are the same. He is afraid to make me any promises because he says that he has agred to no contact before. I told him that in all the years that thid has been happening this is the first time that everything was really brought out. His feeling for her were never eally talked about. I fell like he always tried but things were pushed to a corner and not really dealt with so there was never a resolution to them. He apologizes for what he has done but I think he is unsure of what he wants. He is afraid that the same mistakes will keep happening. Now that it is all on the table can we work toward our future together. He still insist that has never had an intimate relationship with her because they both agreed that it would not be right. Is that a good thing that he never went that far. Does it say something for him or am I jsut reading into things looking for any positive. Help!! I know his love for me is there but can he forget his love for someone else. I know that counseling is a good thing. I guess I just want a quick fix. I need to know how to stay strong through this. Do we try to not talk about these issues on a daily basis. I know he needs time to think. Is acting like a normal family in between counseling right. Should I set a goal with him. Once a week we talk about feelings?

There is nothing to talk about, jh. He is high on the addiction of his lover and will stay that way until you take action. Talking will avail you nothing. Only action will suffice. He is getting his needs met in TWO place and would be crazy to give up his set up with TWO WOMEN. Every day that goes by he becomes more and more attached to the OW.

I don't know how to help someone who won't act.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? Are you reading any of our posts to you?

Won't act! What does that mean?

I have read everything. .

JH listen to melody lane, by the time i found MB, in june, and by the time i started posting i had already made so many mistakes.

you need to expose, expose, expose, i did not and i played russion roulette with my marriage. what do you mean the lists for you and her are the same. are you kidding me?

i know you hurt for him, you are scared for him, you see him lost and conflicted. i was there i get that so help him not make the biggest mistake of his life. fight for him in a way that will infuriate him at first but cement him to you in the end.

this OW? he brought her in, kick her a## to the curb.

reach out to melodylane MELODY GIVE HER THE LINK FOR PLAN A THE CARROT AND STICK. i carrotted my butt off but did not stick very well. yes, you need to plan a, he's home, he is still conflicted, let him see what a strong, beautiful woman he has, how happy and warm you make his home, how you adore him, need him, desire him. laugh with him, flirt with him, make him the sun in your universe.....then keep the bounderies strong. make sure he knows you want him, not him and her, then him and you. make the plan and the plan will work.

i wish i would have found this site in april, DD for me. my husband cried over her being fired, while everyday coming home and letting me make love to him, cook for him, clean his clothes, talk to him about her, hell i helped him grieve her loss, helped him "get over her" and don't get me wrong, i knew i was fighting for my life, my marriage, my family. hard is not even the word you want to use for that. but i tell you the truth. if i would have exposed, if i would have done a better job of the stick part of plan a , the time it took for him to chose, withdraw, grieve would have been cut in half. the time it is taking for him to own his actions, see the devestation in me, our family, even thouth they don't know why, has been horrible.

you can't change him, you can not make his decisions. but you can do everything in your power to pull him like a magnet to you, make no mistake that is what she is doing.

two people in your marriage, "forsake all others"

GET HER OUT OF HIS HEAD, HIS HEART AND YOUR MARRIAGE.

no, this is not easy, no the feelings he has for her won't disappear, but he does not get to pick with his heart, you can not logically analyse her away. put on your helmet, your breast plate and pick up a weapon and kick her a######.

sooner than later. oh, and do it with a smile.

i was you, i know what you are dealing with trust me when i tell you so many posters were frustrated with me because i had made a promise to my husband in April when he asked me not to tell anyone. he cried on my shoulder, apologized, "i should kick him out" my heart died that day in a way i never knew possible. i made that promise, he made a promise to me too, that he would tell me everytime he saw her, talked to her. guess who kept their promise? i found out in june, that he had talked to her everyday from the moment he left our home until he walked back into my arms at night.

by then exposure was not an option for me, my daughter was getting married in Dec and we were deep in wedding mode. don't think for one moment that sat well on these boards, they killed me for it. and i stuck to my guns, i was not going to be the one to ruin my daughters wedding. so guess what, now , after he has been in NC since Nov., and really committed to me and our marriage, guess who has a hard time owning the reprucussions of his actions? and guess who is to blame? ME

Now we struggle, more than we might have to, know i struggle when i should be rebuilding and solidifying our marriage.

this will be the hardes thing you will ever walk through. i know. but unless you plan to fight, and fight hard, and fight right, keeping your marriage will be almost impossible.

this is not just his decision to make, it is yours too. Now, my WH struggles with me letting go of her. now i struggle to make peace with the last 10 months, a big part of that is because i gave my power away. don't give your power away, use it wisly, for your husband.

you can do this, read, read, read, listen to the good advise given. get and keep him now, while he still feels the love in his heart for you. after asking my husband what kept him coming home to me after talking with her all day and sharing their lives, he looked right at me and said, the sex. i knew i wasn't ready to take that step with her, so guess what, that would be one of the things i did right.

make sure you meet his every physical need, so there is no reason to take that step. like i said, i did not do everything wrong. you never know what is going to tip the scales, but you do know if you just wait and do nothing, let him make lists about her, those things are never going to work in your favor.

you can do this. you are worth it, he is worth it, your marriage is worth it.

Where is your plan to save this marriage, jh? Waiting around for a falling down drunk to magically see the error of his ways is incredibly unrealistic and futile waste of time. Counseling is USELESS if one partner is in an affair. You are just wasting your time doing nothing.

From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."

If you want to save your marriage, then these are the actions you have to take [listed below in the carrot and stick]. If you don't want to save your marriage then keep doing what you are doing, which is "hope" your wayward husband changes his mind and sitting in a counselor's office. As you can see, that plan has availed you NOTHING.


Here is what it will take:

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A here


The carrot of Plan A

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.


The stick of Plan A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.

EXPOSE this affair and start standing up for your family. If his affair does not end in a couple of weeks [and I mean ALL CONTACT] then ask him to leave and go into PLAN B.

She wants you to compete with a FANTASY. OMG. She asks a DETACHED WAYWARD who is in the throes of an addictive, fantasy affair to list the benefits of his adultery, which only REINFORCES the fact that you don't stack up right now. [if you came out better he wouldn't be having an affair in the first place � you can�t compete with a fantasy] She does not understand the mentality of your wayward husband as evidenced by this exercise.

This would be like asking a falling down drunk who is in the throes of a powerful addiction to compare the attributes of drinking versus sobriety. I assure you, when I was addicted, the concept of sobriety was PALE in comparison. Otherwise I would not have been ADDICTED.

Your counselor has only EMPHASIZED this.
Your counselor is FEEDING the fantasy by presenting it is a viable option. She is not telling him the truth, that his affair is DOOMED. Rather, she is placing it on the same level as your marriage by having him do this comparison. How is that helpful??