When Dr. Harley talks about not doing all the giving without reciprocation, I think he is talking about really bad situations. I can agree with that, drawing the line, expecting response, and moving to the next strategy.

When a marriage is functioning, and just has one or two things wrong with it, I don't think this applies. There may be a temporary change due to job loss or illness, or new children, for which the couple was unprepared. Now they have to find new ways to work together and resolve conflicts. They may even be basically happy, but one decides they are could be a lot happier. Instead of spinning it into blame on the spouse from holding them back, and seeking happiness outside marriage, they decide to undertake the effort to work on improvements within their marriage. It would make no sense to only give a few months to that effort. However disappointing lack of response might be, walking out or making demands is not the answer.

Pressure? I think not. What she would feel if you USED this program and were in love would be DESIRE. When a couple is in love, they feel DESIRE to make love, not pressure. Pressure comes when a couple has fallen out of love.

Again, you are looking for reasons this won't work, instead of reasons it will..

What he is talking about is a marriage where one spouse does not meet the needs of the other. That is a really bad situation in his book. In the newsletter, When to Call it Quits, for example, the woman has a fairly calm situation but is miserable because her H won't meet her needs. He will only do what comes naturally.

When to Call It Quits - Part 1


Dr Harley advises her to do a very SHORT TERM Plan A and then to leave him. Again, he does not advocate unreciprocated need meeting except as a short term strategy.

He goes onto say:

AGree. Talking a problem to death does not work.

On page 10 of Five Steps to Romantic Love, Harley writes �I don�t believe in �insight therapy� as an effective way to resolve marital conflict. I believe in �action therapy.� Insight is a good beginning but it's what you do that solves the problem."

That's a good point, Melody.

The example I just gave is like that: the wife was comfortable and thought things were okay, because she ignored the hints and oblique remarks from her husband. He felt abandoned emotionally. She was getting away with ignoring him, and he simmered until it blew up and he surprised her with a walk out notice.

It was similar action that got my husband on board.

This thread is one of the most fascinating that I've seen on MB and cuts to the core about many basic issues.

I'd like to add this to the discussion and see what people like Mark and others think about the following subject: motivation.

People like Anthony Robbins say that most humans are motivated either by (these are my terms and interpretations) fear of loss (FOL) or want of happiness (WOH).

What motivates a reluctant spouse to be interested in the MB program? It's gotta be one of these two. (Don't say "Steve Harley" because I already know that and have been trying for two months to get my w to talk to SH!)

FOL seems to be the Plan B thing, either done explicitly with a letter, etc, or hinted at.

WOH is part meeting the other spouse's ENs and the other spouse feeling happy when that's happening (and not LBing, of course). Or the other spouse logically connecting to the MB program and seeing the merits.

Now, what happens when a reluctant spouse is getting all their currently most important ENs met by a combination of others, they don't see any FOL, and don't see any WOH that the spouse can supply in the short term future and are somewhat foggy about the long term future?

To hammer this point home, I'll give the example from my own life. According to a convo I had with SH, we as a couple faced normal marital problems after our son was born last year. My w, instead of wanting to come up with a plan to solve our problems together, went to her parents, who said "we'll fix your problems, just d him, and come live next to us." So, she d-filed and is living next to them and they are supplying ALL of her ENs (dinners 4-5x weeks, RC 3x week, Conversation, Admiration, DS, FS, FC...they're all there). The two they can't supply, Affection and Sex, she has no need of because of her nursing hormones. That is, she gets all her Affection satisfied by nursing our son and Sex she currently has no interest. As far as the future for Sex and Affection, her parents have told her that when the time comes she will meet someone special and have a relationship (I have no doubt this can be true for her in the future, so no dispute there). And, oh yeah, her parents have convinced her that our son will not be affected by divorce, that we can be a happy family even though not under one roof, and that we can all bring him up together. Pointing to books or experts on the effects of divorce on kids, such as Judith Wallerstein's book "Unexpected Legacy of Divorce," has had no effect at all. That is, logic doesn't work.

So, as far as FOL, there is none for my w because she already has it all if I do something like Plan B.

So, what can a spouse do to create an environment for motivation towards MB for the other spouse? Logical discussion of the merits doesn't seem to work. Also, my w has read both the LB book an HNHN (more of as an academic exercise), done the LBQ and will be doing the ENQ, but believes that MB is more for others and that we have "unique" problems (no specifics she's ever told me about this). We're in MC too, who has adopted the MB approach (MC is a traditional MC, but who sees the merits and is trying MB on us and other clients). We're in week 9 of MC, still separated, w is yet to commit to working on our marriage, still no affection, still no UA. W had an appointment with SH, but canceled for fear that SH was "too expensive" (even though I had prepaid), was like "wearing two watches" (two MCs, even though our MC said for her to talk to SH since we're following the MB program), and that SH was "right wing."

If you want more details, here's part of my story. I don't want to hijack this thread with my personal details, but am looking for a more general discussion of motivation for MB (I only posted my story to make it vivid and show that a motivation problem can be very real and very vexing.) Of course, please do use my personal details in your responses to make a general point...just want to make sure I was clear about that...thanks!

Some of my situation

EH, if she doesn't want the marriage, she doesn't want the marriage. If you have tried every way to motivate her and it hasn't worked, then your issue is one of acceptance of the reality that there might not be a solution. It might be time to cut your losses.

Not even the best salesman has a 100% close rate. Not every marriage makes it.

Re
No, I haven't yet exhausted all possibilities. First goal is to get her to talk to SH. Before then, I was hoping that people on this thread my have some general-purpose motivational tools that they've found works. Right now, the motivational problem is mine: I need to figure out the key to unlock my wife's heart. Until I've tried enough, it's still my problem...and I'm not yet there.

I think you have plenty of motivation. She is not motivated to work on the marriage. And she may never be. You might have to accept that as a reality. A person cannot be motivated against her will no matter how hopeful you are. There is only so much you can do.

Not true. She was very much in love with me when we got married, and she did not feel desire. She felt fear. She felt pressure. By her own admission, she freaked out.

We both have untreated issues with anxiety. Job 1 is for both of us to get help for that. MB cannot heal our mariage until we do.

As you said to EHG, perhaps neither of us wants the mariage enough to do the work. We may have to face that reality and move on. I just don't want to bring the issue to a head until my D13 is out of the house.

That confirms what I thought all along that you are not looking for solutions. No program in the world can overcome that......

Melody, please do not misunderstand. I think the MB system is a wonderful system. It did not fix our marriage, but that is not the fault of the system. That is our fault for unwillingness to change and to address our anxiety issues. Nevertheless, the MB system did help me to understand the dynamic at work and gave me tools and a framework to improve my behavior if I ever chose to do so.

The area where I think you and I disagree is about the motivational impact of being told "this always works in the following way when done properly". I hear you to say "this always works, and hence you listeners out there should be very motivated to try it, because you are guaranteed a specific result if you implement the system". I hear you to strongly link the fact that the system is deterministic (same inputs will always produce the same outputs) as highly motivating to listeners. And hence you dislike any suggestion that the system may not be strictly deterministic.

You are a good salesperson. I am not. So I defer to your experience that the majority of "targets" react the same way you do. Which is why MB tends to "work" for the majority of people who apply it.

On the other hand, some of us react differently. For some of us, being told that the system is deterministic causes the following reaction: if I try it for a while, and I don't get exactly the result ML told me I would get, I am a failure. To some of us, that is tremendously DE-motivating. And hence leads back to Mark's original point. that many people try the MB system. Don't get the results they seek as quickly as they hoped. And then "fall off the wagon".

My experience. That the MB system is more stochastic. Attempts to address Mark's point. I am saying "it works, but not perfectly predictably. If it doesn't work right away, don't give up (as I did). Look for the issue that is preventing it from working as it does most of the time."

I think both of us are seeking to encourage people to adopt the MB system. However, I get the impression that you see my message as DE-motivating people to adopt it. Which is, in fact, the opposite of my intention. Where you see your message as uniformly motivating. I see it as daunting for some.

I think MB produces better people even in cases where it does not produce a satisfying marriage for both spouses. Which I think motivates people to try MB even when they fear their marriage is too far gone to be recovered or that they are not capable of implementing it perfectly. But you may believe that it is more motivating to tell people it always works as advertised, and that they can expect to end up with a satisfying marriage no matter how bad off they start or how poor their negotiating and communiocation skills.

I defer to your greater skill and experience at marketing. I want people to adopt MB. I think it is, as Snarch describes marriage, a "people growing machine".

And while you are correct that I am no longer looking for a "solution". I very earnestly was back when we did marriage counselling. Including during the 2 years we implemented the MB system. The entire system. Eliminate LBs. Meet ENs. Use RH and POJA. Have a coach to help us learn to brainstorm and negotiate for mutually satisfying agreements. I guess where we fell off was when we got to the point when the coach felt we needed to Plan B, neither of us had the guts to pull the trigger. That is not the fault of the MB system.

Wow, this is exactly what I've been thinking and just couldn't put my finger on it or express it!

Yes, I think (IMHO, at least for ppl like me) that to be told "This always works if you do it right, so if you aren't seeing success you must be doing something wrong" is EXTREMELY DE-motivating for those of us with a reluctant spouse.

(Reminds me of all those products for getting rid of pet urine in carpet. When it doesn't work, they say "You didn't use enough! Here, buy some more!!!)

And it is not always true that the perfect solution for that is to get the reluctant spouse to speak with SH just one time. Didn't work here.

(There are some ppl who are very turned off by a sales pitch. So this whole sales-pitchy approach is actually a turn-off for them. I'm like that to some extent, but H is VERY much like that. If it even SOUNDS like a sales pitch he tunes out, even if it isn't a sales pitch. He's hung up on ppl because he thought they were telemarketers just because of the way the line sounded... when it was a friend or family member on a cell phone and they just didn't speak up fast enough!!! Or a colleague from overseas!!! And he's against religion because he thinks they are all recruiting... )

That doesn't mean that MY talking to SH didn't help. It did. And in much the way Mark is saying. When I did what SH said to do, and didn't back off and was consistent, it was great!

It is sort of complicated when you have a reluctant spouse who is content with the way things are, but they are IBing a lot. I've already said that what SH told me to do worked like a charm.

I got flak when I posted about doing it, and I got flak the opposite way last time I said how well it work. Not interested in getting flak today. If you're interested you can go look at my thread. I will NOT respond to any nasty comments. I'm saying this in case it helps someone to hear of a success in spite of a reluctant spouse who IB'ed, but I'm not willing to go so far as to invite nasty comments today. :P

hold, no one has ever said that Marriage Builders will work in a marriage against a persons WILL, so that is your own misunderstanding of my point. It is clear to me there is very little willingness in your marriage to correct it.

I get a little impatient with you, though, when you continually challenge points about Marriage Builders when the problem lies with YOU and not the program. You seem to have a never ending myriad of reasons why it won't work and don't try to help people find ways to make it work. Sort of like you want to spread the misery. It is not the programs fault that your wife and you are not willing. Marriage Builders never claims to be able to FORCE someone against their will. But, if it is worked correctly and WILLINGLY, it almost always works.


And maybe nothing CAN help your marriage, hold, but you have never used a MARRIAGE BUILDERS coach, unless I am mistaken. I am not aware of you ever coaching with Steve Harley, Dr Chalmers, Dr Harley or going to a MB weekend. This really astonishes me and does make me question your sincerity. They certainly don't guarantee results, but they are the best in the business and you have never tried them.

I sympathize with you, hold, but I would try a REAL Marriage Builders coach before you give up. I say this as a FRIEND.

So, did Steve Harley sound like a "telemarketer" when you spoke to him? Does Dr Harley sound like a "telemarketer" when he sells the benefit of his program in his videos, his articles, his books? Do you know how snarky that sounds?

This is where we disagree. You say my comments as being "it doesn't work". I am not intending to say that. I think it does work. Often.

However, I don't think it works precisely as you describe it. That doesn't mean I think it doesn't work. Or isn't worth trying. Or that I am not trying to help people make it work.

You see your way of describing it as "helping people make it work". And my way of describing it as turning people off to it. I see your approach as a "hard sell" that may turn people OFF to it. And my way as a softer sell that may be more appealing to some in the "target market". I doubt we will agree on the impact of what the other person is saying.

I think everyone who shows up here should try coaching with the Harleys. I can't even remember why we chose another MB-trained coach back in 2003 rather than the Harleys themselves. But in any case, we tried back when I was willing to try. Today I am not. But I hope to give it another try when the kids are ready to leave. There is a good chance we will call the Harleys then.

Hold, I don't think that telling people how a program works is a "hard sell." But telling people over and over again, as you do, that it doesn't work it a destructive and counterproductive - that IS a hard sell, except from a purview of failure. People come here to find ways to fix their marriages, they already know how to screw them up.

Isn't it interesting that those of us in fully recovered marriages do focus on ways to make it WORK instead of ways it might not work? Something to think about, huh?


I know of NO ONE who ever passed the Harley's certification process. *I* am a MB trained coach and so are many others here, doesnt mean we are professionals or qualified to coach others.

Why not try the real deal?

I'm sorry if you thought I sounded snarky. I did NOT say STEVE HARLEY sounded like a telemarketer. I was referring to this talk of how useful it is to "sell" MB to ppl based on sales strategies. I know things that DH has said about religious ppl who (according to him) were trying to "sell" him on their beliefs, etc. I thought you might find it useful to know that the approach *you* are describing, for "selling" the MB approach to newcomers here, can backfire for some ppl.

DH refuses to talk to SH again, but he didn't say it was because SH sounded like a telemarketer. It was because, as I said, DH was content with the way things were going with his IB.

As I said, SH's suggestions TO ME helped me deal with that. But DH just isn't "into" talking to ppl about stuff like that.

I thought it might be beneficial to some ppl who may not fit the "mold" of being helped by being "sold" on the MB approach, to hear a success story.

I guess I was wrong. Sorry.

Hold, I thought you DID give it an honest try, for a long time?

I thought (correct me if I'm wrong) that where you got derailed was that your W refused to do anything herself, to make any changes, to start meeting ANY of your needs, to POJA important things like finances, etc.; that she would agree to something and then go back on her agreement?

IIRC, the only MB alternative in that case would be to go to Plan B, an option that you are not willing to take at this point in your life for a number of reasons. <ETA: An option that the Harleys readily admit is very risky and is NOT guaranteed to restore the M.> Your choice, right?

So it isn't that YOU failed to attempt the MB plan. It's that your W never came on board. Right?