Hi everyone.

Well, after talking with some good friends of mine, and after reading some of Michele Weiner Davis Divorce buster stuff (as well as participating here for the last 6 years), I have finally realized that I am not wrong for wanting an improved Sex life with my husband.

I am not satisfied with three sexual experiences in 3 years--most of which satisfied him, but not me (though I ultimately can satisfy myself pretty easily, and frequently do. Once was intercourse, and twice I got him off).

Last night and today, I informed him that I think we should get help from a sex therapist. He does not like that idea, and was angry at me for bringing it up and for talking about the issue in general. He was especially angry at me when I cried.

To make a long story short, I finally regained my composure and explained to him that what is hardest for me is that nothing ever leads to sex. Scheduling it doesn't work, being happy together doesn't work, trying to turn him on doesn't work, wearing sexy outfits doesn't work, nothing works. Meeting his EN's doesn't lead to more SF--NOTHING seems to lead to more SF.

I explained that the fact that I am happy MOST OF THE TIME has nothing to do with my satisfaction in this area, and everything to do with the fact that I love him very much and would rather be happy with him than sad about the absence of sex. But sometimes, it overwhelms me.

I mean, if I feel close to him, and want to be near him... Want physical intimacy with him, it hurts me that it can't happen. That's why I can go from happy to sad. The happiness we have together never leads to physical intimacy.

I know that some people have high libido's and some people have low libido's, but... there has got to be a way to make the whole thing more fulfilling so that I am not sacrificing somethingt that's very important to me, and a sex therapist has lots of experience. They could probably help iu sin a few sessions more than all the years we've tried to figure something out ourselves.

He says that he is not going to any therapist. Not a sex therapist and not a regular counselor. He is not going to pay someone to help us, but wouldn't go even if it was free. He won't explain why any further than to say he is not going to listen to someone tell him anything (he mimics things they would say, which is actually pretty funny).

He did say we could talk about things and try to figure out a plan. We could read books, talk about them, etc.

I asked "Do you feel like we haven't done those things? You feel like we haven't come up with plans, read books, talked?" He didn't like that question, and said there were some practical things he thought we could do.

I asked him what things he would suggest. He said that even though his testosterone replacement therapy has his levels at an "abundant" level, he does feel slightly more amorous if he uses more. So he will try more.

Then he said that he things sex is really simple--that it's just a matter of getting him turned on. Although, he says that he can't really do the other stuff... touching me, trying to turn me on, etc.

And this is where I spoke up in a new way. I said that THIS WAS NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE TO ME. That I needed him to be able to please me in some ways as well. It no longer works for me to get him turned on so we can simply have intercourse. I need some sort of connection as well. I want to be touched and I want to get off, too.

He got mad and said "Fine, make an appointment with your sex therapist. I'm offering ideas and you're never happy, so do whatever you want."

Then he left for work.

I feel sad for him that this is such a hard conversation (which I told him). I feel sad for us that this is hard (which I told him). But I do love him very much, and I want us to work this out in ways that are good for both of us.

I understand how hard this is for him. I'm not willing to settle for the only intercourse being "wham bam thank you maam" with my husband. I'm not.

And I know that's hard for him.

But I'm proud of myself. I did cry at one point, but I was not mean, and I was very clear headed. I did not take the bait (about how unreasonable I am, or how I don't care about him, etc).

I'm proud of myself. And a little more optimistic than usual.

:-)

And I'm not willing to settle for so little sex, either.

I feel like he's really heard me now.

I talked about it when I wasn't overly upset (except for the crying for a few minutes). So he doesn't think it's just going to go away, which is what normally happens.

I get upset about it,a nd then I would rather be happy with him then make an ongoing inssue out of it...

But now I'm pressing. And I will continue to press.

This is an important part of marriage, and I will no longer settle for him having all the control, and hwen it happens, he is the only one satsified--but then I'm supposed to be grateful.

I'm not accepting it anymore. I'm going to be respectful, but I'm not going to pretend like it's acceptable.

Of course he has a long list of things he will not do. That is the conventional style of negotiating.

Focus on what he said he will do.
He said he will read books, and talk things out.

Get him to read the Michelle Weiner-Davis book you just read, or another one of her books.

Get him to read "The Ten Minute Sex Solution". I found this by accident while staying at a rental beach house and it cuts right past all the self-analysis to taking action, in ways that serve the spouse without a lot of pressure on the other, reluctant spouse.

Since he agrees with talking about it, move him to talking about it using MB techniques negotiating and the POJA. Once he realizes that one part of it works, he will be more open to trying anther part, then reading the whole program, then hopefully counseling.

There is something he refuses to discuss. Use what he will do to move him to see a physician, read what some experts have to say, select a counselor with you, and start counseling.

Hi Retread,

Okay, so here's my DJ. I think it's all just more stalling. We have more books on relationships and sex than I care to count. Some of which HE has bought and never read!!! He won't even read the chapter I sent him from Michele Davis' book "Sex Starved Marriage." (Though he keeps boasting that he met her, and Dr. Harley. And they are both just out to get money, according to him).

I will propose "The ten minute sex solution" and see if he's interested, and ask what books he would like to read.

He heard Dr. Harley at a seminar he attended. He did not like him, because when he met him to ask him a question, he felt Dr. Harley was arrogant.

He doesn't believe me when I say "I want to come up with a solution so that you are happy and I am happy" on anything... Even when he's seen it work. He doesn't like anything that sounds like relationship.

He has seen a Dr. I don't know how far along the path he will go, but I'll start with the book thing. Again.

Thanks, Retread for thinking this through with me.

Well, what do you think is his problem?
Is there a medical problem?
Why is not not being open and honest about this?

Maybe you should start with the MB concepts of Openness & Honesty, Radical Honesty, and POJA.

He said he would read the books and talk. Hold him to it. Let's read a book, a chapter a day, and discuss it. "Ten Minutes" is good for this, because the chapters are short, about one concept - no excuse for not reading and putting into practice right then.


Don't propose it. Look at it, and if you like it, buy it.

Also put the responsibility for action on him.
Tell him you are ready to get started, you have some books you like, but he needs to find one he likes and let's get started TONIGHT.

I am very proud of you Telly. And I will be following this thread. I am being very careful of myself right now, but I want to know how this goes for you. I am open for some of my own soultions, but not a three years from now solution. I won't make it that long. So I am reading whatever I can, and your thread is on the list.

Thanks Retread,

I will get that book. He is giving a talk tonight, so he won't be home till late... Which is good, because the wind here is awful, so I won't be able to get to the bookstore till tomorrow.

As far as what I think the problem is. I seriously think he just has a low libido. He is SO intellectual, that's just where he lives. And it feels like a lot of effort for him to get out of his head to be physical. Plus his family didn't do much touching... ANd I also think he has enough vulnerability with just being married to me--let alone goingi further into physical intimacy.

But I am not a therapist and these are only guesses, of course.

I appreciate your approach--and I certainly need help remaining direct and action oriented on this.

Thanks Luroosi, i hope this goes somewhere.

:-)

Congratulations Telly! I imagine it was very hard for you to have this conversation. Very hard not to cut it short. Very hard to remain calm.

Also, I would imagine that you can find authorities on the web as to what kinds of exercises a sex therapist will assign. You might try scheduling one exercise a week every week for a month. Sample exercises include: hugging for 30 seconds without letting go; hugging for 30 seconds without letting go, repeat 2 or 3 times per day for a week; sit naked and look at each other's bodies for 5 minutes (no talking); sit naked and look at each other's bodies for 10 minutes (discuss what you like about your partner's body); naked massage for 10 minutes each (no touching "tingly bits"); naked massage for 20 minutes each (touching tingly bits permitted, not required, but no intercourse).

Since many of these exercises only take a few minutes, you can also schedule a few minutes for discussing how you felt doing the exercise. Perhaps immediately afterward. Or perhaps at a later time.

Then after the month is over, you POJA whether you want to continue doing exercises. The nice thing about that kind of agreement is it gives him comfort that his initial "yes, I'll try it" does not commit him permanently. And it gives you comfort that if he hasn't done the exercises, you can confront him at the end of a month with "I guess we do need professional help since we cannot follow through on doing this ourselves".

Kudos to you for raising the level of conflict. I know that breeds anxiety for you. Good job overcoming the anxiety and doing what you needed to do. Remember, courage is not the absence of fear. Courage is doing the right thing even when you are afraid.

And don't reply that you thought Courage was just a cowardly dog!

LOL! This made me laugh, Hold! Because I think you're funny even when I don't know what you're talking about!

And I liked your ideas... But I don't know if I can lay naked and look at his body for 10 minutes or give/get a naked massage and be unaffected. (EVERYWHERE can turn tingly, you know). (Chuckle)

But you're right, he would probably feel safe with the level of those sorts of excercises.

Gotta add my kudos, Telly. You did a super job with what is a huge issue.

And the plans others have suggested are terrific. I just wanted to add one thing...

keep meeting his ENs in the ways he love while you keep persisting. Stay aware you don't drop off on any of them...so that he knows this isn't tit for tat, do it or else...none of the stuff he may tell himself.

And super congrats on not accepting his "I can'ts" insofar as him touching you, including you equally in SF. Isn't real...he's not incapable...he's choosing not to...which is really about him, not you. Keep believing that...and in him and he's ability to change.

Look how much you have changed due to your new choices. And you're not letting up on that.

LA

I am so proud of you, I have been waiting and hoping for this confrontation!

[b]Then he said that he things sex is really simple--that it's just a matter of getting him turned on.

I am amazed that he only thinks of HIMSELF here and HIS OWN ORGAZM. He does not have any idea that a wife would need pleasure too? He has no idea that a wife does not get full pleasure from intercourse alone? He does not realize he needs to make love to a woman and make love to her with good technique? How did he miss learning this lovemaking knowledge?


Although, he says that he can't really do the other stuff... touching me, trying to turn me on, etc.[/b]

What does he teach in marriage classes? That husband's should only have to "put it in" every few years and that is OK? Does he think there is absolutely no need to ever touch you or pleasure you or is it that he realizes he should be doing this but he refuses and does not care about your pleasure and intimacy with him?

I am sorry but every man I ever met and dated KNEW that a woman's pleasure in the bedroom was way more important than thier own pleasure and they would spend hours on pleasing me. Even my LL husband knows that I need pleasure and need lots of touching and kissing ....it is a NEED not just a WANT.

He should understand the basics about lovemaking.
He should carry out the basics about lovemaking to a woman.

Unless he really deeply does not like women.....or thier body, or pleasuring them. most men get a real thrill out of bringing thier woman to orgasm. It is part of thier pleasure to spend 40 minutes slowly doing this.

Unfortunately for me, I've turned into the diesel that describes women. Not that it was always like this, and I 100% blame my wife. Her neglect in this area has decreased my "passion" and high desire. BUT things have gotten better, the only problem is the actual libido. I want it, but its harder to... well get harder, so I place more responsibility on her, which she doesn't want because she thinks I should be like I use to. I could explode in minutes and had to hold back, now I find myself concentrating to get to O. How pathetic is that.

Telly, I gave my wife an ultimatum and she somewhat has awaken (maybe 80% awake). I have bubbles, OH, and cat to thank. [and thanking you for the last few times we did too... oh my gawd they were mind benders, she hasn't sweated during SF like this in years!]

Durabo my good friends, Durabo! (anyone else have to take Latin, with all those tenses?)

Who ever told your husband that a woman does not need 1/2 hour of touching and kissing four times a week? Where did he get the idea a woman does not need these things for her very survival? I would love to know where he got this wrong information.

IT IS A NEED, AN IMPORTANT NEED WOMEN HAVE!!!!

I know, Bubbles. I know. You are absolutely right!

THanks LA. I am sure there were more things I could do to soften it for him, but... I think the softening part is over.

And good warning about not slacking on meeting his EN's. Part of me does want to do that!!! But I don't meet his EN's so he will meet mine--I meet them because it is the right thing to do.

Telly,

I met W's EN for years with no return. You can only do this for so long. It's like a Plan A, but eventually you will start to resent it, as I have and uh... Hold.

My W was shocked this morning to come down stairs and I was on the 2nd load of laundry, dishes done, coffee waiting for her and the kids breakfast getting started. She just doesn't get it either.

Mud: Just curious, but has your W taken the EN quiz? Do you even know what her top EN's are? I'm sure most W's would appreciate the help with DS, but what if DS isn't one of her top EN's? Even if it is important to her, DS isn't generally an EN that makes women go all weak in the knees. I can't remember the last time my H doing the dishes made me want to jump into bed and have mad, passionate sex with him.

There are EN's that can make a woman feel closer to her H. Some of the ones that work for me are Affection, Conversation, and Recreational Companionship. In other words, spending quality time together, being close, touching, talking, doing things together that we both enjoy. Those are the things that build intimacy in a relationship.

I appreciate it immensely when my H helps out with DS, but I don't think it really makes me feel more romantically inclined.

writer1,

yes, communication, affection, DS, family time. These I've done forever. Unfortunatley she is a fww and asked for everything under the sun, I gave up just over a year ago, gave her an ultimatum that I was leaving when the our yngst grads, and she had an epiphany within hours.

Mud, I was just wondering, since everything you listed that you were doing to meet your W's EN's fell under the blanket of DS. What specifically have you been doing to meet her other EN's?