ok, Steve and Dr Harley USE the very approach we are describing. Where do you think I got the idea? Dr Harley describes this very approach in his new book and they BOTH have used it FOR YEARS. They "sell" the program based on sales strategies. Steve TOLD ME and MRSW this very thing at the MB Weekend. They are not telemarketers, or door to door salesmen. I am a salesperson and have used those very techniques for 20 years working for Philip Morris USA and now the top soft drink company in the world. We are not hacks or telemarketers, Jayne.

I don't get the attack mindset here. Jayne was sharing about her husband, not herself. And I think her opinion that sales strategies can backfire on SOME people is accurate. Not all or no one...just some.

And they do. As they did on my DH who in his way, resembles Jayne's DH. Not on me...I was sold. Jayne has been sold.

And the strategy works so well because the Harleys fill a need...a deep, abiding need...and they do it really well.

And some newcomers who may be initially turned off by the approach, may not feel their need deeply enough to stay and find someone with an approach they like. That's their loss, really. Not our lack. We do the best, member and newcomer, and meet in the middle.

We can't save their marriages, nor can they, alone. MB is in part about approach, how important your approach in your marriage is...what you commit to doing and not doing...determines how committed your marriage becomes...not all about approach, or nothing.

And here I was struggling to think up nasty stuff to post to Jayner's post before the one above. Dang ya, Jayne...I had nothing. Not a thing.



LA

Our second marriage counselor (the one I mostly want to forget) gave us a page listing love busters. It was definitely Dr. Harley's list, and I think it credited him; it was basically a reprint of an article off of this site.

But "Independent Behavior" had been eliminated from the list. I noticed immediately it was missing. Never asked her about it.

I gotcha, girlfriend! I don't get the attack mindset either and was surprised to see the Harley's and others who use selling techniques compared to telemarketers and religious zealots, but I am not going to take that personally. [not on a Friday, anyway maybe Thursday..] I think we all agree that most telemarketers and religious zealots are a turn off, but no one is suggesting using such techniques here. Steve is one the best salespersons I have ever met and I sure wouldn't place him in the same category as a telemarketer.


We know you could never be nasty!

Thanks, LA! *hugs*

Wow markos, they actually gave Dr. Harley's LB list but excluded IB??? What a ripoff.

... um, lest I be misconstrued, the above comment is NOT saying Dr. Harley is a ripoff!

Interesting!

I think the reason some people don't think IB is bad for marriages is because they don't understand what it means. Some people think it means never do anything without your spouse in tow. What I take it to mean is to never do anything without your spouse that HURTS your spouse. Big, huge difference! As long as the spouses are in agreement about their solo activities, it is not IB. Even though it is carried out independently.

It means buying a JEEP and then calling from the finance office and saying "honey, guess what I just bought?!!!"

DH: WHAT???

:: I've come home with a new car when I was supposedly just looking.

But, H is such a good guy that he just laughed and said he knew I was going to buy it.

I don't think he was quite as amused when I bought my e-reader last weekend. But I'd saved up my money for it!

(Yes, I need to look at IB in myself.)

Hmmm....I have a soft drink background too (marketing) but somehow, since you are in TX, I don't think it's the same company.

So pfffffttttt to you!

BTDT. SIX times! (I was the one saying WHAT???

I think what we have been told, for the most part, is that this always works when BOTH people are motivated and do it right. That says nothing about those of us with a reluctant spouse. I don't think anyone is saying "If you have a reluctant spouse, and do this right, you'll motivate them, and they will join you in the program, so if they are reluctant, you must not be doing something right." (Or if they are, I think they are pretty uninformed about Marriage Builders.) Instead I'm actually hearing the opposite.

Yes, like every counselor we've seen, she claimed she looked at a variety of materials and developed her own approach. I'm pretty sure this was a sign that she simply would not be convinced that independent behavior is a bad thing for a marriage.

For the record, she was divorced.

ML, I never said it doesn't work. I said it does work. Just not as deterministically as you claim it does. You may view my saying it works more stochastically as undercutting its effectiveness. I never said it was less effective. Just not as linear.

You may view non-linear as less effective. I view purely linear as objectively false and hence more likely, in the long run, to turn people off to the system.

And remember, as Markos points out, I am talking about the situation where one's partner is reluctant to join in implementing MB.

But you are the salesperson. I agree that "take this pill and you will lose weight" is a stronger marketing pitch than "87% of people who took this pill had weight loss that exceeded the weight loss of a placebo group by a statistically significant margin".

Happy weekend all.

Exactly! No one has ever said that Marriage Builders has the power to force a reluctant spouse to participate against their will. Even the BEST salesperson cannot do that.

Well I hope all y'all had fun on my thread today.

I'll try to drop in this weekend if I can get the VZW modem to work.

I'm going (ice) fishing...

Mark

Hmm, I thought that was what ML was saying to hold, that it was his fault that it didn't work and that MrsHold didn't become a loving, sensual, fiscally responsible, POJAing wife.

When I read what Mark said on the other thread, about how we shouldn't discuss the tails of the distribution, I could see his point but was still bothered by something. Hold hit the nail on the head when he said that's discouraging to some folks to hear that MB always works if you do it right, and if it doesn't work then you did something wrong. That's why I have trouble shutting up and drinking the koolaid.

But whatever, gotta go spend some time with my DH and kids! Have fun everyone!

Nope, never said any such thing.

Have fun!!

Again, the claim is not "Follow this program when you have a reluctant spouse, and your ultimate outcome will be romantic love." The claim is "If both of you follow this program correctly, enthusiastically, the ultimate outcome will be romantic love."

No claims are made for those of us, who, like you and myself, have a reluctant spouse who is not presently committed to following the program.