Two things

1) Thinking: I did not ask you to take your comment down. The idea seems kind of strange to me and I am hoping that it's not common for members here to request that other members take their comments down.

2) Everyone: I completely reject the notion of any responsibility (and we can also use the word cause, contribute, or carrot) for my spouse's abusive behavior. Abusers make the decision to abuse their intimate partners or other famly members because of something inside themselves. It's OK to be frustrated or angry; however, physical violence within the context of an intimate relationship is never OK.

Is the point of LA's (& possibly Thinking's) comment to get me to think: "Gee what did I do to contribute to getting beat up by my husband?" God, I hope not...and this isn't really the callibur of "help" I would expect in a place like this one.

I set a boundary by first warning that if it happened again what action I would take & then I reinforced that boundary by actually taking the action when it did happen again. It hasn't happened in a number of years, and I believe it's not likely to happen again, so I don't want this discussion to keep focusing on physical abuse.

The focus for me is making the most out of my sessions, gathering as much info as I can, and getting my spouse to the same point I am at - desiring to restore our love and our marriage...

NewEveryDay, your comments on this are right on target.

We do contribute to how people feel when they are with us. Are our actions friendly, loving, supportive? Do our words and body language serve to bring others closer or do they push other people away?

The thing about physical and verbal abuse / abusers is: Abusers have a whole different type of issue going on inside them...and I have read that the more "in love" the abuser feels with you the more trouble you are in - that is, making an abuser feel closer to or more in love with you by kind / loving words and deeds may actually serve to escalate the abuse. (Shocking, I know)

Steve (and other professionals) would not touch the "how did you contribute to getting beat up by your spouse" comment with a 10 mile pole.

Like I said, I was hoping for a different and more constructive focus for my discussions of marriage here, so hopefully we can either come to some understanding or agree to disagree about the abuse thing.

In no way did I intend or say that you contributed or caused your H to be physically or verbally abusive with you.

I said your WHOLE part was staying present for it, the beginning the escalation, how you did not enforce your own boundary on physical abuse until you did.

You said your H has not been physically abusive in nearly four years...his treatment was in part from the law, anger management classes, etc. And he has not abused you again physically as I recall.

And yet you write as if it's current, it's what he has just done, without amends or learning or stopping. That's what I get. And Alanon is truly for those who have issues with control and resentment, their own sickness, and they pick abusers to go with it. Their loved ones abuse alcohol, drugs, food, money, etc...and they abuse people. And themselves. And when they stop the behaviors...stop drinking, let's say, then the underlying stuff keeps the abuse which was present before a drink or a drug was taken...and still everyone suffers.

So I'm not saying your H isn't currently abusive...I'm saying to look at your own part, what is in your power, that makes you so strongly identify with being abused after the physical abuse stops...where you choose for your thoughts to dwell, which keeps your resentment and control alive and growing.

There remains the underlying issues with you and your H...and I don't see where either of you are safe for the other right now...

I reacted so strongly to your original post because of this...I saw you as if you were my DH, after years of my verbal abuse, doing what you are doing...and I bottomed out inside. Had to remind myself that what my DH admires the most about me, and says so, is how much I've changed...and stayed changed...and if he were to post like you, I would believe what he feared most six years ago had come to pass...

he wrote "why should I come back. It will only be more pain and suffering."

And no matter how much I changed, it would not save the marriage if my DH had dwelled in what was for 15 years of marriage...if he focused on my past, not my present behavior.

Resentment has a language and a taste...uses words like "didn't deserve" "shouldn't be this way" "if only you didn't"
"you changed who I am" "you made me who I am today" "never gonna be the same" "always will feel this way"; tastes sweet for a second, like relief, then a long slow swell of bitter from entitlement from lack of inclusion and lack of respect...and you sync your experience from focusing on your spouse, tasting them...creating and growing an aversion to who they were when...

In no relation to right now. And I think people do that when they haven't seen their very real power that they didn't know they had back then...and their very real limits. I think we hold onto what we do not own, our part, to grow from. Because Resentment RELIES on us believing that it can protect us from pain...

so if we heal from it in healthy ways, we realize how false Resentment really is...a manufactured power that peters out fast...not what we really wanted, ever...except as a signal we are crossing our own boundary by doing that which we will resent, in ourselves and others.

Toxic to marriage, to growth and change. It degrades and dismisses love deposits...blinds us to acts of love surround us, being given to us...doesn't respect our choices so it doesn't respect your H's choices.

He chose to change, to stop, AND to continue the marriage when he had the choice not to--so as not to face you, to keep following lies...and you chose to let him continue the marriage, too. Half and half...if you're going to dish out blame, be sure you dish out equal credit.

Six years ago I read The Verbally Abusive Relationship...and each time I would see something that I was doing...I would go to my WH (he was in an affair and withdrawal from the A at the time) and say, "Will you listen to this? I'm really shocked"...and then read the part, give examples of when I did that recently, apologize and stop doing it...and same for his abuse...his "forgetting" "silent treatments" "mockery/sarcasm"...not attacking him. Saying, "Hey, what do you think? The author says this is verbal abuse."

And you know what? Our marriage became about REAL forgiveness, understanding, new boundaries and defining in advance our boundary enforcements. We do not stay present for abuse...nor do we walk off without stating the offense and when we will return.

We stopped the abuse all around. We don't live in it, though at times, we cross our boundary with an AO (which is a .1 on the old 10 scale) and still, it's not permitted, not without amends and remorse...because that is NOT who we really are nor how we want to act.

You are totally responsible for staying with a man who continues abusive behavior. That is your choice. You knew this when you married him...that was your choice. At no time did you make him abuse you...you had no part in that. Totally on board with your perspective on it...just not hearing your choices daily, since.

Because you remarried this man, in a sense, when he went to jail and came back after the DV complaint you filed. But then, that's my perspective...because I believe we choose our spouse every single morning we wake up...we choose to love and act from love...or not...so that we choose The Marriage daily.

In the present, not the past. And often, physical abuse will put other abuses in the shadows for your kids and yourself...so you really don't see because the physical abuse is the most easy to define really...and the rest, well, can seem like acceptable outbursts, parental punishments, tit for tat, living in disrespect and not knowing it.

In your responses since your first post, I hear tons of rejection, put downs, assumptions and disrespect for other posters here and your loved ones. All labeled with the title "Any and all comments welcome" when they really aren't.

You can feel defensive...reasonable, understandable given your experiences in your marriage. This is your first experience here on MB...NOT reasonable or understandable. We are not other boards...and what you hear is HALF of what's said...not all or nothing. Like the title, you SEEM to say "I took LA to mean and I hope she didn't" and then you re-iterate that more strongly...when I said nothing of the sort.

You can convince yourself you are attacked when you are not being attacked. I'm sure your H knows this experience as well. In fact you can feel attacked when you're being supported from love.

Your half is as important as his half...his actions and stuff are equally important as your own. The trick of Resentment is that you will focus only on what's coming at you...from him...from others...us...and not own that if you hurt from something said, then you hurt...and it's valid. Does not prove anyone is out to hurt you. You may not even be under attack at all. You sure will experience it as if you are, through your own choices.

And it's a tough habit to break...break it anyway. You're an intelligent, dedicated, amazing woman, Chris. Break your own habits because they are what you are solely responsible for. You are the cause, control and cure for you. My stating that very important human fact isn't saying anything about your H or his actions.

Just you. Realize where you took it and saw what you expected or didn't expect, but nonetheless protected you from looking at your own stuff...what thoughts you choose, what beliefs and perception, the perspective you choose...and your actions, from which your feelings follow. All yours. Just you.

Because you're here. Can't do a thing to your H, understand the filter you have as you...we can support your marriage, anyway...when we know what direction you really want...because a thriving, healthy marriage may not be what you truly want...and if you believe healing devalues, that forgiveness erases, that if you heal all the way through, then your H will do it again (we have lots of secret beliefs)...then you will reject before you consider someone's post...keeps you falsely safe and destroys your relationships with others...even your kids...because Resentment doesn't stop with your H, or you...it keeps going.

It is the generational lubricant handed down so that we keep repeating because we choose to keep resenting.

LA

There are some "voices" on this board which sometimes get testy to the point of being offensive. I hope to NEVER be one of them. But occasionally their posts will be "edited" either by the original poster or the moderators to remove the offensive comment. I was just trying to account for my arrogance and apologize. I should probably do it more often

Consider the topic of physical abuse dropped. It sounds like you handled it the best way you could with very clear boundaries. That is very hard for many people.

One of the benfits of the boards is that so many of the vest have been in really bad situations and have yet made a complete turnaround. One of the reasons I try not to give specific advice on here is that I am not a vet, and I have not shared much of my own personal story. So I don't feel I have the same kind of credibility as Loving Anyway, Melody Lane, or NewEveryDay. I especially have tremendous respect for the vets who were former wayward spouses and have the courage and guts to tell their story of marriage recovery. There are some posters on the Pregnant with Other Child" forum that blow me away with their stories of recovery. It's humbling in the best possible way to be priveledged to learn from the wonderful men and women on these forums.

Some of it is VERY hard to hear. I encourage you to have an open mind. And also focus on what you get in your sessions. You are very lucky to have the means to make that happen. and I wish you all the best on that.

LovingAnyway,

You are dead on about a few things and you are insightful / expressive as well. Thanks for sharing parts of your story which relate to mine and thanks for sharing your opinion.

Yes, of course - I do feel resentment. I resent that my husband abused me physically. He is verbally abusive as well and I am hurt by that & resent that too because although the physical abuse is in the past, the verbal abuse is in the present and we never really resolved the physical abuse...In fact, thinking back honestly - There was a major Love Bank deficit leading up to and (especially) following the arrest.

I did marry him knowing he was abusive & "remarried" him (you put it very well) after the arrest. When I first posted here I said I felt like I made a mistake with that.

I am not sure where I put anyone down here. I have my comments saved and I just don't see it. When people in my life approach me and say "Hey - I didn't like when you did / said abcde" - I am very open to it and I want real connections with the people in my life, so I am not afraid to apologize, make things right, and cease & desist with what I did to offend. Yes - in my life I am known for standing up for my self and yes I have strong opinions & semi firm beliefs, but I never reject new information or good input from other people and I am not ashamed to follow the example of people who have figured out how to do things the easy way / a better way / the right way.

Honestly, the only "conflict" in this discussion came from me rejecting what you seemed to be saying about the abuse. It seemed scary to me that someone here seemed to be saying I need to think about what part played in getting beat up by my spouse. That's it. But you said that isn't what you meant. Actually. if i'm being honest - the part I played was by staying with him after it happened the first time and marrying him with the full knowledge. If I could turn back the clock would I undo it? I don't know - I suppose it depends on how it turns out.

I am very eager to read other people's perspectives / opinions / experiences on this. You don't know me very well and it's very possible you're transferring at least some of your own feelings onto me and what I write. I am not an expert so that's just my guess / opinion.

I said it before but I'll repeat it - I am hoping to address my part in all of this because that's the part I can actually address. I want to be a better spouse and partner to my husband and I want a healthy marriage and a happy life. There is nothing which "protects" me from my part in messing things up. Although my husband has done some inappropriate things, I do not hold myself blameless in this situation & I did not come to this forum or purchase sessions from Dr Harley to have everyone tell me how horrible my husband is and how right I was / am. So very serious about that.

Resentment is the elephant in the room in our marriage but can't that be said for most (if not all) distressed marriages? ...Resentment at unmet needs, resentment about Love Busting activity, and in my case & his - resentment about past abuse / present abuse / being arrested. (I hated typing that.)

Dr. Harley and I had our first session this morning.

My first "at home" assignment from Dr Harley was to let DH know we had the session and that is was eye opening for me. I did that and, as Dr Harley suggested I then went onto "the question"..."The question" to pose to DH was: Wouldn't you agree that the ideal would be to be in love with the other parent to your child & have that person as a friend and companion?

Dr Harley said that the only way someone would say "no" to that question is if they did not understand the question, but he prepped me as to how to respond in case that happens.

When I posed the question, DH shook his head negatively and said "NO". I said "I understand. But please think about this...Divorce is very destructive...it will affect you, DS, me...financially, emotionally...Would you at least consider talking to one of the coaches on your own like I did? If you do, I wouldn't take it as a commitment or a promise for anything. It would basically be research to see if there is anything we can do about our situation" He said he would think about it. He also said that staying "in it" while unhappy "just to stay" is not good. A few minutes later we were alone again in the bedroom and I told him I was curious about what his "ideal" was since he said it wasn't what was mentioned before. He shook his head again and said "I don't want to talk about it." But he did ask - Is that something I am supposed to discuss with you or the coach? I replied that I was just curious. He told me that he doesn't deal in "ideal" he deals in "reality" and solving our problems doesn't seem realistic. I said I understood the difference between ideal and realistic ...the 2.5 kids and the home with the white picket fence is The American Dream. He said he used to have that dream... and then he grew up after Mary (This was his ex fiance who he got into debt with). He said that if our problems are going to be solved it would need to be based on reality, not fantasy. I asked him if I could check with him in a couple of days to see if he wants to speak to a coach.

I don't know what's next and I am once again filled with dread. Dr Harley says to chip away at their stubborn refusals, but my husband is extra stubborn and seems hell bent on divorce (or does he? He said he didn't want to talk about it but he did open up to me a little didn't he? ... SO confused) Still, I am afraid that he will not agree to talk to Dr Harley, and then all will be lost.


I am also confused because my husband has been confiding in me about a horrible person he is dealing with @ work. He also is proceding with home items and our family budget as if there is absolutely nothing going on. (It's torture!) Maybe he is trying to keep things calm until we get our mortgage modified in July? Another thing he is doing which frightens me a little: He is becoming EXTRA loving to our son...I mean really laying it on thick and then stealing glances to see if I am watching. I don't know what to think about this behavior. Have any of you seen this before? Any insight as to what is going on from this persepctive. Someone please give me a clue.


Also, I was looking at some townhome communities nearby and wondered what it would be like to live there with our son & without my DH...I made a list of logisitic type questions to research how things would work for separation / divorce. Why did I feel compelled to do that if I am working with Dr. Harley? Should I do that research? Will it help me feel better or is it working against what Dr Harley is helping us with?

Help!

ETA: DH just "invited" me to watch 2 movies with him tomorrow night. Sigh...now I am really confused.

I'm going to need valium, aren't I?

Chris, I think it's great that you are gathering information to make as informed decisions as possible. It will bring you more freedom and peacefulness about whatever decisions you make. This to me is the opposite of the victim role, replacing those old tapes with new choices.

This is just my opinion, but it could be he's trying to be the "favorite" parent. Pretty immature for someone who is trying so hard to live in "reality".

I would just ignore it and be the best parent YOU can be.

It's funny to me that your husband talks about reality and fantasy. I have found that we sometimes choose to live in a world of fantasy that is very dark and hopeless and convince ourselves that this IS reality. Just because the fantasy isn't sunshine and lolipops doesn't mean it's not a fantasy world.

Rejecting the "ideal" in lieu of "reality" is just a cheap justification for not having to do the hard work it takes to strive for the ideal.

Thinking,

Yes...I can see how it would seem like he's pretending in front of our son that all is well and may be trying to become the "favorite parent". If that is the case, I am not sure how he thinks this will play out in the event of a separation. Growing up, my best friend's father divorced her mom and did the "favorite parent" thing with gifts and money. I wonder if he would do the same thing based on what I am seeing now. My friend seemed to like it and she showed of the things her dad purchased for her. Thanks for your suggestion about ignoring it and continuing to be the best parent I can be.

Everyone,

I am trying to keep the negative emotions and negative observations at bay, but here's something else I was thinking: I instinctively knew DH would respond to Dr Harley's question negatively (though Dr Harley stated that few people would (insert BIG sigh of despair here) and I "knew" it because I think, generally speaking, my husband has an external locus of control & tends to view things negatively. This is something which I did not pick up on until we had been married for quite some time.

He often makes "I'm not going to worry about it because there's nothing I nothing I can do about it." statements in response to several types of situations...whereas I am a more "Let's do something about this." or "Who can we talk to about this?" type of person. Over the years a little of the idea of not worrying about what you can't control has rubbed off on me (from him) and helped me become a little less worrisome - so I think that's a good thing. And my "go for it" attitude has rubbed off on him in terms of him completing his college education. Again, I perceive that as a good thing.

Discovering these differences about us was not pleasant for me. I never imagined I would be with someone who has a negative outlook on life and it does bother me. When I realized this, it finally made sense to me that his general mood always seemed to be determined by mine. I don't like having such a heavy "responsibility". I have to be bright & cheery if I want him to be bright and cheery too - but sometimes the "mood transerrence" was unstable (he could still become easily aggitated) and if I am in a bad mood it easily transfers to him.

Has anyone had any experience with this? What coping strageies are there?



Editted because I wanted to be clear: I used the word "responsibility" tongue in cheek.

But does doing this (gathering the information) at this time mean that I am not fully committed to making things work? Is it harmful to the state of mind needed to maximize the outcome of my (hopefully soon to be our) sessions with Dr. Harley?

I guess what I am getting at is - when people draw up pre-numps when they are getting amrried. I sort of looked at that as a negative thing...I saw it as beginning the marriage with the assumption of divorce.

I think you could justify either mindset. I can share with you how I personally have been handling that issue.

For me, it is very important that I stay in the now. For my entire life I have been making plan B, plan C, plan d, Plan E, ad nauseum, all the while not living plan A to give it a change (I'm not talking the MB "plan A/Plan B"). I get so caught up in trying to plan for all the various scenarios that "could" happen that I forget to give my energy to what "is" happening.

If I were to aplly this to marriage, if I put my energy into planning for a future of separation or divorce, or a lifetime of choosing to stay together unhappily, then I am really not doing much to live in what is happening today.

For me personally, I must do my best today and trust that if each day I do my best (even if my best really sucks), that eventually I will live myself into the correct answer for the future.

There's a great quote from rainer Maria Rilke that talks about this, "Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves. Do not now seek the answers, which cannot be given you because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything. Live the questions, and perhaps even without knowing it, you will live along some distant day into your answers.�

I know that's very "esoteric" when we are talking about real world questions like, should I stay or go? Should I prepare or not?

My question to myself at times like these is to pray about and ask God what the correct answer is. If I get a log diatribe, I know that's my self-will talking. If the answer is short and sweet, that's more likely God's will, though not always. I'm not sure if you are a religious person or not, but again, this is what helps me with questions like that where I'm projecting into the future.

My spouse's father did the same thing (divorced family). He was deiniftely the favorite parent during childhood, but there is very little relationship between them now that adulthood and parenthood have taken the blinders off somewhat. Spouse's father was/is an alcoholic and was always the "fun" parent. My spouse now resents fatehr for being a "friend" instead of a parent.

What makes you think his mood is YOUR responsibility?

I don't. I should have put that in quotation marks...It was a tongue in cheek thing.

Will fix...

OK...I still feel like crap. DH has not told me what he decided as far as speaking with Dr. Harley, yet he's having a contractor come to the house this weekend to see about building an addition onto the shed in the backyard to get his motorcycle out of the garage so I can park my truck in there when I am able to drive myself again in a few weeks.

I really don't see the point of 1) running up more credit card bills and 2) building anything onto anything if we're separating and then divorcing. For me - it's mostly # 1.

It was only Wednesday since he agreed to consider speaking with Dr. H, but it is still torture. Every morning I re-read the Emotional Needs info & try to meet as many as I can each day, but it isn't easy because I am hurt & confused. I have noticed DH's attitude & demeanor improving, but I am skeptical about how long that positive shift will last.

I am not sure what I need to do next. Yesterday, I sent an email to Dr Harley asking what to do next - schedule myself for another session, wait X number of days before bringing the Coaching up again, etc...

Someone's signature said Recovery is not for Whimps...Good grief, they are right.

One thing I'll say though - there are lots of people online promising to save marriages. Many of them seem to advocate the doormat method. I don't see how anyone could live that way...always eating poo from their spouse, etc. Dr Harley's methods seems to be about healthy negotiations and cooperative living. For that I am grateful...even if a marriage doesn't work out, the skills conveyed here are very useful for having healthy and satisfying relationships.

Still upset & feeling badly...

I hope I can make it through this.

Some vets on here recommend starting with eliminating LB because one LB can drain the love bank WAY faster than meeting EN will fill it back up. Fix the whole in the bucket first, then work on filling it. Actually, doing both at the same time is probably the best thing, but we're talking about tools we've never used before, so if I'm going to "master" my skill with one of the MB tools, I think eliminating LB is probably the BEST one to start with if I'm working with a reluctant spouse who refuses to participate in the process.

I am glad you don't see MB as another doormat program. I used to believe that it was. I do struggle with some aspects of the program, but only because it involves changing beliefs, and that doesn't happen overnight. Which is why I argue on these boards a lot. Did I say argue? I mean "discuss".

Thanks!

I'll do that too.

LOL!