The biggest tip I could give you is to stay busy.

You haven't mentioned the 'second A' in a while - is WW still going over for ummm coffee on a regular basis? What's happening there?

She leaned back on her philosophy that she�s not someone who can follow a �specific path� from �point A to point B� (should be point D, lol). She admires my ability to do so, and even is jealous of it. Therefore MB (or evidently any other formal method of marriage recovery) is just not for her. [All this is probably where the �MB=cult� was coming from]. She says she�s �always been that way...never been one to follow certain methods� (kindof explains the state of affairs now doesn�t it?)

She got back to another one of her gems �if we were meant to be together, it will happen either way.� [like something from a song defines my marriage at this point].

Not much hope for recovery here, but I figure another try wouldn't hurt. I also feel there's no harm in communicating. I guess I have a lot to learn in that area, the practice helps. And it's therapeutic in a way. Kinda like processing info and writing it here.

---Took D8 to dinner and a movie (Alice in Wonderland) last night. This after winning a pool tournament. Definitely not wallowing in self-pity.

Sounds like fogtalk. She doesn't want to follow a path because she doesn't want to be held accountable for her actions

Don't you just love it? My FWW and POSOM used to communicate by sending each other song titles. I suppose the lyrics were meant to be 'love letters' to each other. Seems like a lot of them were of the 'we were meant to be together' theme. Made me sick.

Hard to figure Linus. Definitely sounds foggy, but I really don't think there's much an affair going on. It's almost more like she's just in love with the idea of not being married anymore. Selfishness. Either way, I agree about the second part. I also think there's a little intellectual laziness going on. MB is definitely not the path of least resistance at this point.Although I did try to point out that D wasn�t going to be a walk in the park either; she claims to understand this.
opt

Answer � Part I:
I�ve been thinking of this question for two days and I�ve only concluded that it�s very difficult to answer right now because I have such mixed emotions.

First you should know that through a lot of introspection and analysis of my 15 year marriage, I have concluded that, as mentioned above, this M was not based on strong principles. Details not necessary, you can trust me on that. So, the next logical question is why stay in a R for so long if it�s not �working.� My EN�s weren�t being met, not by a long shot. Evidently neither were hers; but with such a lack of communication (an essential ingredient in any bad M) we weren�t able or willing to discuss that fact more than we did.

Isn't that the crux of our whole problem? Recovery and a healthy marriage are possible as long as BOTH spouses are willing to work towards that end. MB and many others have said and demonstrated that love can be restored in a dying marriage, but all have also said that it takes two to get there. Seems we BSs have to sit by and wait for the light to come on over the wayward's head. How do you make somebody become willing to be willing?

Of course we didn�t know anything about options or MB principles, so we were just like every other struggling M before a possible solution presents itself (which is usually precipitated by a crisis, unfortunately).

And now one of you has learned these principles and a way to restore love in the relationship, however one spouse alone is not enough.

What I always leaned on was a philosophy I developed in college �make a decision and live with it.� That philosophy saved me from a lot of hand-ringing and procrastination throughout my adult life. I always figured I could make the best of virtually any situation. Enter kids into the equation outlined above and you have someone who can swallow a lack of SF for the sake of making sure the children aren�t raised in two single parent households. Frankly, my wife is excellent at avoiding LB�ers. She also found a way to ignore mine, at least on the outside. We went for 7 years like that after the birth of D8.

I like the 'make a decision and stick with it' philosophy. Maybe that's why we are here, struggling heroically to find redemption in our decision to marry in the first place. Continuing to sacrifice of our own happiness to meet our spouse's ENs and protect the children because "that is what we are supposed to do."
Seems like you both were missing something from each other and trying to carry on with your lives, not knowing at the time that there was a better way to work a marriage.

And you know what? I�d probably do another 8 years like that if I thought it would be positive for the kids. I would walk through fire for them.

However, I won�t endure the abuse of a wayward who isn�t interested in working to better the marriage. That�s not the kind of R I want to model for them. I would be a bad parent if I allowed them to grow up thinking there was anything normal about a parent having boyfriends and then not taking responsibility for such a colossal mistake.

Once again, what I think is the crux of the problem. Getting a wayward to become willing. Enter into the equation some of our own justifiable anger and pretty soon, enough is enough. We keep searching for the magic bullet, but at what cost to ourselves?

Thing is, she�s never going to own up to her issues. And that brings me to Part II.

At least while she is still in the active A and fog. Many former waywards acted and behaved in the same manner until the A ended and the fog lifted.

Part II:

I can count on one hand the number of times my wife has accepted responsibility for a bad decision, mistake, etc. She just doesn�t have that trait/skill. I guess it is in her upbringing or genes or something of that nature. Unfortunately, I think this leads to a tremendous inability to grow as a person. When you won�t admit a mistake, you can�t learn from it.

It is so odd that my WW shares this exact same trait. I seriously can't remember when she has EVER genuinely apologized. Even her counselor has said she is the most stubborn person she has ever met. I also think this is a very tough character flaw to get past.

She went through a period of serious contemplation and soul searching, introspection, building when she was in her 20�s. But I think that was about it. I really haven�t seen any substantial desire on her part since we got married to grow as a person. She seems quite content with who she is. And who she is is arguably a pretty good person. Very good in fact. I could actually stay married to her as she�s actually quite pleasant to be around and doesn�t really cause much trouble. But it would be a weak relationship. One that couldn�t endure Adultery.

Through learning about MB principles, I can see that there is a possibility of having a gratifying special relationship. I just don�t see it happening with STBXW.

However, to answer your question more directly, if she somehow came to a change of heart, she would have to agree to a substantial list of conditions I have stored in a document. It is substantial. Almost impossibly substantial.

I saw in another thread a listing of requirements to be met. Some vets had knocked out some of the specifics and recommended changing it to simply living by the PJOA. Just a thought.

Interestingly, on Sunday I got her a card. There is actually a section for �Troubled Relationship.� Found one of these cards in that section too! Hallmark- they think of everything don't they? I wrote in it some words about hoping she would explore her spirituality at some point, something I think is sorely missing from her life; just expressing that God hasn�t forgotten her. I also mentioned that if she decided to try and explore the possibility of reconciling, I would be willing to discuss it with her openly. That didn�t get any response. I must be a real SOB, lol.

I think that was a very noble attempt, and really probably the only one that will work. We are completely, utterly incapable of changing our waywards. No form of rational logic, education, pleading, charming,or even ignoring seems to have much impact. We are powerless to 'make' our waywards see things our way, or have a change of heart. This MUST come from within them, and they are usually also incapable of making that change themselves. I am convinced that only God has the power to change or soften a wayward's heart. JMHO, and I don't mean to get preachy, but this is something I am having a hard time trying to accept. I'm trying to let go and put this in God's hands. As my MIL recently asked my WW, "Where in His word can you find His approval of this relatoinship?" (She is a great woman)

And don�t get me wrong. I�ve played a very considerable role in getting us where we are today. I recognize that. Part of my problem is being able to point out everyone else�s faults, as I�ve done so effectively above; but hey, that�s me. Call it ignorance. Tragic ignorance. I�ve since learned the difference between disrespectful judgements and recognizing facts � that�s honestly what I�ve tried to do here.

It seems that D-day and the A are instant eye-openers and allow us to really see our lives with clarity, both internally and externally.

Anyway, this A was the game changer.

It also changed me as a person; I don�t look at things the same way. When we started this whole adventure I remember latching on to our counselor�s phrase �Behaviors repeated form habits. Habits repeated form character.� I have a lot of behaviors that I could stand to adopt, and a lot I could stand to eliminate; the process has started and is influenced highly by what I�ve learned here.

That is what I believe one of the greatest things about this site and the MB principles- the self-improvement and self-awareness that comes along with this life changing (and shattering) process. I guess there really is some good in everything.

I think that was a very noble attempt, and really probably the only one that will work. We are completely, utterly incapable of changing our waywards. No form of rational logic, education, pleading, charming,or even ignoring seems to have much impact. We are powerless to 'make' our waywards see things our way, or have a change of heart. This MUST come from within them, and they are usually also incapable of making that change themselves. I am convinced that only God has the power to change or soften a wayward's heart. JMHO, and I don't mean to get preachy, but this is something I am having a hard time trying to accept. I'm trying to let go and put this in God's hands. As my MIL recently asked my WW, "Where in His word can you find His approval of this relatoinship?" (She is a great woman)

. . . I could tell she was lying because her lips were moving. . . .

How are you coping these days?

(�he was just a friend, if I was going to have an affair it would have been with �B�).

Wayward Wife answer for the ages:
�yes, but you are going to have to do something that you�re really happy about first.�