Mark, that was not a thread hijack! I think it is very pertinent to the discussion. Also, to call a spade a spade, there is really some gray area here between POJA and the EN of admiration. Let me discuss in MB terms...

When a W asks "Do you think I look fat in these jeans?", what I hear is really "Can you please give me some Admiration?" If you want her to lose weight, this is not the time to express it. I suppose O&H would have you reply, "Yes, you really need to lose 20 pounds before I would wear jeans again." Or, you could say "I love you no matter what you look like in jeans," which would be equally ineffective. You might as well tell her she is unattractive. If I think my W is asking for admiration, I will give it right then and there.

In fact, it is controlling comments about how his W should look like that can lead to A's. EC's W stated that POSOM liked her hair either way, not just straight. POSOM satisfied her need for admiration, instead of trying to control her appearance to match his tastes like EC. Better that EC support her self confidence rather than let someone else do it for him. That, I believe, is the crux of the issue.

I understand the issue that it triggers EC. Is that his problem or hers? POSOM was indifferent to the hair. She straightens it once per month, and likes herself when she does. She also claims it helps the scalp (I'll take her word).

It is not a fact that EC is trying to control his wife. That may be a perception but it is not fact. The control issue is simply justification in a WS's mind.

I can sympathize with El Camino on this one. The night my wife left our home to go on a date with the OM ( I figured it out after she left), her hair was straightened, that night I asked her not to return to our home. Even though it may sound ridiculous when her hair is straight it takes me right back to that night.

IS,

I considered a tj because it is a discussion really only peripherally related to EC's thread and the discussion is more generic and between us and not really advice for EC.

Why not start another thread or I will when I get time. We can copy the comments made so far onto that thread and continue the discussion there. I do think it is something worth discussing further if you'd like.

Watta,

I am in full sympathy with EC as well. Triggers can be very hard to overcome. It isn't just that we are reminded of the pain, we actually feel the same pain all over again.

For more about this, see the thread about Managing Memories in my sig line.

How are things today, EC?

Mark

ImStaying,

I think the points you're bringing up are good for the discussion at hand. However, you may be missing the point. This is about POJA and a repeated behavior that bothers me. In specific, I can't stand the situation when I'm caught off guard by getting home and finding a hairstyle change by surprise.

You can read more details about this issue a few pages back. BTW, I don't think that I am trying to control her looks. I am open to agree to a hairstyle/look that we can both enjoy. I have even agreed to her wearing her hair straight (I also wrote about it here). But the IB related to this situation is hard to take.

For whatever reason, Rizos believes that my reactions is intended to punish her when in reality it isn't. It feels like we are playing chicken. Other than my inexcusable hammering of the hairdryer, I've been very calmed and collected with my reactions to the repeated episodes of unannounced hairstyle changes.

She also claims that I didn't care about her hairstyle before. Maybe she doesn't remember but I've always cared about it. Long before I even suspected the A I would ask her to wear her curly hair. I've asked/begged her in so many different ways that I don't understand why she won't remember my numerous requests.

I tend to agree with Mark. I don't feel comfortable saying something I don't mean. If I don't like certain look I'll rather carefully say the truth. If there's a look I like, you bet that I'll say it's hot.

The truth is that OM didn't care about straight or curly hair.
A woman can find a thousand POSOM willing to give them false admiration to get in their pants. He took the opportunity to make a pass to Rizos when she first radically changed her hairstyle - and she immediately went for it. For quite a while, she sent him numerous pictures of various changes of hairstyle - all of them straight hair. She'd even inexplicably send the same pictures in separate messages to OMW (who used to be a close friend). But I can hardly see the same effort in looking attractive to me which is sad.

Rizos has a natural beauty that I really admire. I wish I can have the opportunity to express it.

Well, I never imagined to make so much fuss about hair. Hopefully we can straighten this out

--ElCamino72

Hi Larry,

You're completely right. One of her top ENs is affection. She craves romanticism. For a long time I neglected this need. During my plan A I was doing good adjustments in this area. It hasn't come natural but I am working at creating the habit. Rizos had said that it was working great for her. So it is proven that this is key.

We're both born and raised in the same country. But we come from different backgrounds. We are in fact very different when it comes to expressing our emotions.

I'll keep in mind your comment about treating this as a new romance instead of recovering one. That is a very good approach.

She had already bought a new hair drier yesterday so I lost the opportunity to replace it. I'll figure out a way to make it up to her.

Thanks

--ElCamino72

I agree with Mark and EC on this one. I don't want you to lie to me. I just have to be mature enough to know that if I ask a question, I'd better be able to handle the answer.

Believe me, GO never hears the question, "do I look fat in these jeans?" from me. I have eyes. I know what I look like. If I need admiration, I ask him, "what do you love about me?" Thankfully, I have a man who knows how to compliment his wife without being prompted to do so.

EC, you gave Rizos a great compliment in this post: "she has a natural beauty that I really admire". I hope you have said it to her face.

Mark et al,

Today I'm feeling like I have a bad hang over. I know that in the past days my behavior has been reproachable so I am not feeling great about it.

I stayed home and Rizos has been out all morning. She text me a few minutes ago that she was getting a facial.

Tomorrow I finally sign the sale of my company. I never expected to sell my company under these conditions. The whole ordeal of selling the company continues to indirectly withdraw LUs from Rizos LB$. I am going to have to stay as a consultant in the company for the next 6 months. I am looking at it as a lot of time of having to see OM and deal with the fallout.

I need to figure out a way to bootstrap myself to go back to plan A.

Thanks for your support. At this point is greatly needed.

--ElCamino72

Can you do your consulting from home or meet clients away from the office/OM? Is the sale of the company not final until this consulting period is over?

There is hope for both of you guys!

Which country? I already picked up on the cultural differences and the different backgrounds AND EASL. This will help me to provide a more fine tuned response. I have an email address as my signature for a reason.

Larry

That's a lie, and is terrible marital advice.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_honesty.html

Your teammate can't meet your emotional needs if you lie about them.

Plus, it would make him a pretty disgusting hypocrite, since what he wants is openness and honesty.

You respectfully say what you need done for a love bank deposit or not done for a love bank withdrawal, without angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, or selfish demands ... and then you see if you get what you want, or not, at this time. You'll never get it if you don't ask.

Please don't encourage anyone to lie to their wife.

For example:


I already figured that out. I have not posted on this subject to her as yet. But I will when she is ready to see it. The MB program is Cognitive Behavior Therapy and is the only one I have seen that promotes a level of infatuation on a continuing basis.

And that is what she needs. And she can only find it there because it doesn't normally exist in real life. Infatuation happens, then dies, then happens again, usually with someone else, or with an old lover, then dies again. It is a cycle in real life. But she doesn't know that, yet.

MB has the answer because it is real life for the lucky or the smart. And we can give credit to Dr. Harley for figuring it out and codifying it so those who want it can get it, when they work at it and follow the method.

Larry

Perhaps the answer would be better worded: "You are beautiful regardless of hairstyle." That would not be a lie, based on his comment above.

Markos:


No, no, no.

It is a funny way of attempting to teach a guy how to effectively communicate with a woman.

There is a reverse to what you say: How to lie while telling the truth, an invention of a popular writer by the name of Heinlein. Women intuitively understand this. Guys don't mostly, unless they are politicians.

When women talk, they use a knife. When men talk, we use a blunt hammer. It serves only to confuse a woman when we use a hammer in an attempt to be "Honest."

Larry

I am sorry, but most women change hairstyles. How is demanding that a W not change their hairstyle not a selfish demand?

What would the markos POJA answer to the hairstyle be specifically?

Nobody is suggesting that El Camino demand his wife not change her hairstyle.

"Honey, could you please not straighten your hair? It bothers me." -- is a request

"Rizos, if you straighten your hair again, I'm going to break your new hair dryer" -- is a demand

Similarly:

"I'll just straighten my hair today because I like variety and it's really not a big deal" -- is independent behavior, and a selfish demand, and a disrespectful judgment. If the circumstances are right, it might even be an angry outburst and/or dishonesty, as well.

"El Camino, I really want to straighten my hair, but since you don't like it, I won't do it for now" -- is following the POJA, and could well be followed up with negotiation, such as "Do you mind if I straighten my hair when I spend two days with my parents next month?" or "How do you feel about this other hairstyle?"


I have no idea, and it wouldn't matter, anyway. The couple would have to POJA and negotiate to get any meaningful answer.

I'm only a learner at this. For more insight, you should ask a master at POJA, like, say, Mr Wondering...

But IM, that is not true. What does he say to convey his displeasure about her hairdo? If her appearance is causing LOVEBANK withdrawals, how will she know if he doesn't tell her?

Its like my jogging suits. My DH HATES THEM and does not want to be seen with me in them. He also doesn�t like it when I put my hair in a pony tail. How will I know that this causes lovebank withdrawals unless he tells me honestly? My H tells me the truth BECAUSE he loves me and does not want to erode the love we have in our marriage. Being open and honest about things that make you unhappy are the ONLY WAY the other spouse will have chance to change. So when my H tells me �dear, those pants ARE NOT flattering at all� it is not a lovebuster! He is saving me from looking yucky AND protecting his lovebank since Physical appearance is a top need.

In the case of EC�s wife�s hair, it is ESPECIALLY critical to the rebuilding of love in their marriage that she knows he HATES her hair like that. Admiration does not mean dishonesty or unspoken issues. It is a sincere admiration.

Its not a selfish demand at all. It is warning his wife that she is making lovebank withdrawals and giving her a chance to fix it. Whenever our spouse is doing something that makes us unhappy, it should be eliminated.

Here is how you say it:


"Dear, that hairstyle upsets me greatly and triggers my feelings about the affair."

Honestly. He just has to say it.