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What is the point of keeping the secret?
It allows the WS to save face.
A truly repentant WS is not concerned with saving face, he is concerned with making amends.
Mel (hi kiddo!)I think it's interesting that you are saying that facing the consequences, of seeing the wronged parties' pain, can bring about a change in your own feelings. Okay, got it. But that then is just the beginning. Kind of like with meeting EN's, the feelings follow the actions.
It bothered me that someone would have to *require* a WS to do the apology thing. So, thanks for the clarification. The apology is just the beginning, in this case.
I will add that a face to face apology would mean a lot to me. In some cases, it would even require me to look at my own actions, not always what I want to do. It might even mean that I would have to consider forgiveness.
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weaver, I agree with everything you said. I was thinking about my own recovery process in AA, and when I made my amends, I don't think I was truly remorseful when I did it. But I WAS very willing to try and recover and make amends, even though I didn't really FEEL remorse at that point. But going through the process changed something in me. Seeing the faces of the people I had harmed helped bring about a real change of heart in me.
Making amends cleansed my soul as a human being.
Just thinking out loud here...
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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My WW's apology was by text message...God bless technology.
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[quote]It might even mean that I would have to consider forgiveness.
_________________________/quote]
Can you imagine if everybody got an apology today, and we all in turn practiced forgiveness?
I know this wasn't the purpose of the thread, but can you imagine?
This is actually a pretty deep subject because with apologies you do have to consider forgiveness, and in the past I was a huge believer in forgiveness and what that means, but now I am growing leery of the whole forgiveness thing.
On Graycloud's thread we had some pretty heated discussions on forgiveness and how necessary it was, where people actually left over it; the subject of forgiveness was that close.
I think I am starting to understand this, and I wish I had understood it before.
And with all that said, yeah I wouldn't trust someone who didn't apologize for his hurtful and destructive actions, but I wonder what it would take for me to trust the apology. Probably a lot of actions to back it up.
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OT, but you deleted your facebook again! Don't you miss my "can this squirrel get more fans than Obama" updates?? 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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penaltykill"
thank you for being so honest.
my WH "trickle" kills me to death...apology to OSH? never would happen....my WH really is a wonderful man....i love him with all my heart and soul...
he really never meant to hurt me,.....but he did...and now that is all i can see......
searching all the phone records....everything...calling him all the time ....after 25 years....it is to much..
should he apologize to me....should he apologize to our children.....should he apologize to her husband.....
me? yes.....after 28 years...i deserve that...our children...no i want them to believe thier father is invincible.....her husband...he is on his own.. Hi Betty! Firstly, I think you are missing the point - of course, your husband owes many apologies - to you, to your children and to the OWH...All of you were victims in this - and really no apology could ever erase the pain you were caused - HOWEVER, what I believe Pep is talking about is the amount of CHARACTER it builds for someone to face their victim[s], admit wrong doing and apologize to them. Think about the person that you are inviting back into your life - into your heart - Isn't it important that they build/rebuild their character/integrity in order for you to allow them to remain a part of your life? IMO, it should be. And about this~~~> our children...no i want them to believe thier father is invincible..... Really? You would like for your children to believe something that is FALSE? How will this help them in life? And I'm not just saying that it is false based upon your husband committing adultery - I am saying it based upon his being HUMAN. Humans are not invincible. Makes me think of an old friend of mine...When I was about 21, I was disillusioned about something one of my parents did - my friend said to me, "Mrs. W, there comes a time in your life when you have to realize that your mama ain't Wonder Woman and your daddy ain't Superman"...I think that is something that kids should learn early myself...I make a point with our daughter [age 10] to always admit when I am wrong, and apologize. When [notice I didn't say if] humans make unwise choices, there are unpleasant consequences. How each of us fallible humans handle those consequences is important - some great life lessons can be taught by how a parent tackles the fallout from their own unwise choices. Isn't it more important for your children to see how to properly handle poor life choices? That there are consequences to every choice that we make in life - that we are all responsible for our own choices, and that when those choices are unwise and hurt others that we are to do everything in our power to make amends for them... IMO, that is a far more loving thing to teach your children, Betty, because it is reality - Purpose to raise them to be adults that understand the importance of personal responsibility and integrity. Hey there Weaver! Good to "see" ya!  The word "require" as spoken on this thread seems to me to be a boundary. In other words, no one can "make" or "force" their spouse do anything. You can however "require" certain conditions be met in order for someone to remain a part of your life - they are free to choose as they wish. Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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Melodylane: he has no one to make amends to. no one knows. but me. I do not understand why you allow that to persist. The very first step in the Marriage Builders program for recovery from an affair seems to be for you to expose the affair. You haven't told anyone that it happened?
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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PK: are you the WS? if so, did you feel the need to come clean, to apologize?
Would you have felt that if you knew that your secret was safe?
Did you ever teach your children to apologize?
Why?
What is the value, the core value, which is the underpinning of an apology?
The apology has no real meaning ... it's the value that the apology represents which is most important (to me).
Why do you think I wrote about how I learned the value of an apology?
I put that first and last in my post, for a reason.
An apology certainly meant little to me the first time (2nd grade) .... except I thought it meant the Easter Bunny would come.
You are missing the point.
Do YOU ever plan to apologize again, the rest of your life?
Why, or why not?
What would it mean if YOU did not apologize for some egregious wrong thing YOU did to another person? To someone you love?
Is an apology only necessary when you like the person you wronged?
I think this apology issue will tell you about the core values of people.
Remember, the woman I stole $$ from, was a complete stranger to me.
My parents, apparently thought I needed to apologize, even to a complete stranger.
How would you feel about yourself if you were not required to apologize to your victims if YOU committed adultery?
Relieved you did not get caught? Really?
What do we learn about our spouse's core values if they fail to, or resist, an apology to their victims?
I knew, 100%, I would have nothing more to do with my wayward if he was cowardly, and failed to apologize.
Nothing.
I do not value such a person as MY spouse and life partner.
Making a necessary apology makes ME a STRONGER person.
Stronger, not weaker.
Becoming STRONGER gives me self worth and the ever desired "self esteem".
I would esteem myself very little if I were so weak and gutless to forgo a necessary apology.
That goes for my spouse, and my kids as well.
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It is not cookie cutter or clear cut.
Thanks for both insights.
Children ... when they are adult and then again ... maybe.
-rh-
My post begs the question put forth in my chosen thread title.The value of a face-to-face apology.There is value in an apology.
What is that value?
When/where/how do we (did we) learn that value?
Do we teach our children the value of owning up to their misdeeds?
Why do we do this?
And if we teach our children to apologize, why not teach by example?
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The word "require" as spoken on this thread seems to me to be a boundary. In other words, no one can "make" or "force" their spouse do anything. You can however "require" certain conditions be met in order for someone to remain a part of your life - they are free to choose as they wish.
Mrs. W
"They are free to choose as they wish" ... from another location, not living with me.
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I did not require an my h to apologize because there was no one to apologize to. The FOW was single so no spouse on her side to worry about.
He did apologize to our children on his own accord. I did not ask for it nor require it.
As far as an apology to anyone else i do not feel he owed anyone else an apology. Although his actions may have indirectly affected others, they did not directly affect them so IMHO no apology was needed.
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...our children...no i want them to believe thier father is invincible.....
You value the appearance of goodness, not good behavior.
Unfortunately, this seems to be a very common value in today's society.
I refute this.
There are way too many examples to pull from.
Tiger Woods?
How many politicians?
How many celebrities?
Just too common.
Sad. This is just sad.
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PK: are you the WS? if so, did you feel the need to come clean, to apologize?
Would you have felt that if you knew that your secret was safe? Interesting questions. I came clean years after the A was over. I could have brazened it out, but my H had been told something and after thinking it over, and talking with my best friend, I just decided not to deny it. My rationale was that if any more came out, I had nothing further to fear. So, my H got everything in one long, excruciating weekend. If there's such a thing as trickle truth, he got a tsunami. And he was flattened. As for a secret being safe....I believe that my experience shows that no secret is ever completely safe. Things come out, generally when you least expect them to. So, if we're going to have an exercise in magical thinking ("What if your secret was safe?"), I'd prefer to wonder, "What if I had never been unfaithful?". pk That is so true! My A was 8 years over by the time someone told my H. He will never believe I was on the verge of confessing, which I was because of finding MB. But I don't blame him for not believing me, after I all I managed to deceive him for a long time and the lies were worse for him than the A itself. I occassionally toy with the idea of apologizing to my MIL, but then remember how easily she tossed me under the bus for the xOW and the OC.
Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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I occassionally toy with the idea of apologizing to my MIL, but then remember how easily she tossed me under the bus for the xOW and the OC.
(letter you do not send, or, a speech to the ocean/wind/night sky)
Same thing if the person is dead. In absentia.
Your MIL is not a person who is safe.
In absentia.
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I did not ask for it nor require it.
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I occassionally toy with the idea of apologizing to my MIL, but then remember how easily she tossed me under the bus for the xOW and the OC.
(letter you do not send, or, a speech to the ocean/wind/night sky)
Same thing if the person is dead. In absentia.
Your MIL is not a person who is safe.
In absentia.
I like that one, thank you. No even now she is not safe. I did reach out when her beloved brother died because I loved him, too. But then I went back into my safe, NC mode.
Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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To his great credit, he faced my mother and sister like a MAN and made his apologies. My mother and him are GREAT FRIENDS and they email each other back and forth corny jokes all week long. They crack each other up immensely.
The value of an apology is great.
It allows honest friendships to be born, and to bloom.
Not the appearance of friendship, but true friendship.
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The value of an apology is great.
It allows honest friendships to be born, and to bloom.
Not the appearance of friendship, but true friendship.
They grew CLOSER.
Before Mom died, she confided in me that she has so much admiration for Mr Pep and myself. She admired the way we rebuilt our lives.
She admired my husband.
This would never have happened, had H not made his apologies.
..... Because, I would have divorced him.
..... Because, I could not have admired him.
..... Because, I could not have respected him.
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I did not ask for it nor require it. Apologies are of value to me but in this instance it was not a requirement because i did not feel it was necessary as there was no one IMHO to apologize to other than the ones he did apologize to. There is a difference in valuing an apology and wanting or expecting one.
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The value of an apology is great.
It allows honest friendships to be born, and to bloom.
Not the appearance of friendship, but true friendship.
They grew CLOSER.
Before Mom died, she confided in me that she has so much admiration for Mr Pep and myself. She admired the way we rebuilt our lives.
She admired my husband.
This would never have happened, had H not made his apologies.
..... Because, I would have divorced him.
..... Because, I could not have admired him.
..... Because, I could not have respected him.
Both of our parents have passed away and had passed away prior to his A.
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