When to Call it Quits

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

....."his"

uhmmmmm, Linus dear, that would be HER......

some faux pas cannot go unignored........

Ms. Not2fun

2Funny!

Thanks g for the links.

~o~

I just KNEW I should of had that second cup of coffee before posting anything . . . .

My deepest apologies, Ms. Not2fun - what a bozo, huh???

No worries Linus, lol. And thanks for all your input. It has meant a lot. I can promise I'll be around here for a good time to come.

Wow, those are really good articles. Change a few things around in the first (and third) and you definitely have our situation. Unfortunately I can see myself in the 'not meeting wife's emotional needs' category.

Of course SA has always been a huge issue in this R with what I suspect might be a legitimate sexual dysfunction for ww. We had tried to work on that several times, but I think it's too deeply rooted in a terrible incident that happened to her a long time ago and was never properly addressed. I guess I grew to resent that she never pursued that more clinically even with my encouragement; sad thing is it is continuing to haunt her and will forever - not to mention how it's affecting 2 innocent children.

I guess I've tried to be patient, but never really had the tools until her 2nd affair landed me here; but too little too late. The articles made me wonder if I should have gone with legal separation instead of directly to divorce.


But you know what? She's has a very very bad track record of availing herself to opportunities to get help, or embrace the help she gets. She's considers MB a 'cult' almost out of hand. We even filled out all of '5 Steps' book, and she has completely ignored the concepts. She read HNHN's for Parents and got NOTHING from it. We've talked to our local priest and he's reached out to her; she never called him back. She refused to pursue more counseling with Steve (due to "expense!" So far, D has cost thousands and we're just getting started). MC was Divorce Counseling in her eyes; she used it as a ploy to make me see the light. The woman will spend 40 hours researching the best price for an end table, but not read one book or on-line article about how to improve a marriage.

I'm definitely not perfect. I have many flaws and have not been the ideal husband. But I think I've legitimately and consistently demonstrated a willingness to learn, grow, change, improve, develop, educate myself; all by any means necessary. I can not say the same for ww.

Therefore, realistically, Legal Separation would be a lesson in futility and simply push the whole timeline back up to 2 years. I can't see that helping my children one bit - too much ambiguity.

Just thinking out loud here. Thanks for everyone's thoughtfulness. What a great way to 'journal' and know you can get helpful feedback from folks with similar experience and educated opinions.

o

Just saying good morning opt. Hope you and the kids had a good weekend.

Opt-you sound like you have your head wrapped around this pretty well. You sound better than before and that is awesome. You are definitely still growing and learning. Take care of those kids and of yourself. Who knows what will happen in the future? The one thing you will know, is that YOU will be better because of it.

Thanks Scot for the encouragement. I'm doing my best. Had a barbeque with my friend yesterday and was offered a beer several times. Finally I just said, "I quit that in November" - DS 13 right next to me who stepped up and reiterated "My Dad doesn't drink anymore." I know my kids are noticing the positive changes I've been making. That's a really good feeling.

One thing that has made it a little smoother is that ww is allowing me to talk to her. She desperately wants peace through this whole thing and envisions us as big "friends" after it's all settled. I've been very honest with her that I don't trust someone who treated me like she did, with the lies ad deceipt. I told her it's going to be tough to be "friends" with someone who continues to deny that they did anything wrong and keeps trying to dress up the pig of adultery by calling it all different names and generally downplaying it as a non-factor in our current situation.

I will probably never really get the satisfaction I'm looking for, but I do feel better about myself after I stand up for my feelings let her know how I feel.

thanks again

O

Good morning to you Linus! Life's a journey, right?
Great weekend - highlights: playing hoops with DS13 on Saturday (still sore), and cleaning car with D8 on Sunday, church with both on Sunday am. They are total angels I don't know what I would do without them.

Thanks for checking in. Do you have a regular thread - it seems like you comment in a lot of places but you're hard to pin down; I hope your R is going well.


Opt

I have a few threads (I know, not good) and the latest is on the Recovery forum Linus Thread. I'm not posting my status much, just trying to keep up with others who befriended and helped me (like yourself) through the darkest parts of my saga, and to post (hopefully) helpful words here and there. I'm not anywhere near experienced enough to try to provide real help, but I try to offer words of encouragement to others who have run into issues like mine. I sure am learning a lot, though. Maybe someday I'll really be able to help someone like the vets here.

I should probably transfer over to the D board, but for now I have a little dilemma.

I told my ww on Sunday that I didn�t trust her and didn�t believe most of what she told me. Just a fact, given the level of betrayal, lies, deceit, secrecy she engaged in over the past many months.

Now, she�s still holding on to what I�ve come to understand is a common wayward fantasy of divorce: the eternal friendship with BS. I realize the importance to the kids of remaining civil, but I doubt there�s going to be much friendship there.

Anyway, I�m trying to play along (at least until the court date, at which point I�ll honestly reassess my emotional position). So, I told her I couldn�t be friends with someone I didn�t trust; and meanwhile she�s insisting she never had sex with OM#1. So I told her the only way I�d ever believe she didn�t have sex with OM#1 was if she took a polygraph. She just kinda shook her head.

My dilemma is should I really pursue this? I would really like to know for sure. But I�m not sure what it would accomplish. Part of it would be the joy of watching her squirm about the prospects of it, and the further discussion of it. Part of me wants to put her through some of the humiliation she put me through with the EA (I know it�s wrong, just being honest). And I also wonder if I could actually be �friends� with her even after I found out the �truth� (regardless of the outcome).

I also feel that if she was serious about wanting me to be �friends� after the divorce, she would be serious about trying to regain my trust (something she should have done if she had any respect for me in the first place). And if she was serious about regaining my trust, then she would run, not walk, to the lie-detector man.

I do feel lucky she lets me talk to her. I let a few things fly the other night. It also came out that OM#1 continues to try to contact her. To me, that�s broken NC, not that it matters much. She says she tries to duck him (which I�m inclined to believe at this stage); but I told her he�s a predator and by not taking legal action with an animal like this, she might as well put a �come in anytime� sign on her life. She doesn�t get it and I�m really afraid for my daughter � this is the absolute worst part of the D; ww�s supremely poor judgement and inability to get this POS off her back.

So, suggestions about the polygraph would be appreciated, as well as any angles on waking my ww up to the fact that OM is Dangerous.

Thanks guys.

~optimism

Opt,

I don't really see enough of an up side. It sounds like the big "benefit" would be retribution. I think the peace of mind, and having the ability to move on knowing you stayed on high road would be more of a benefit.

You've been through a lot. Why put yourself through more drama and WW antics?

Being friends with a XW? You're gonna have higher priorities.....

Just my take.....

TB

Opt- Gettting your WW to agree to a polygraph(which I HIGHLY doubt) would not be good for you at all. I know that you want to KNOW that she did or didn't have sex with OM1. Would it really make a difference at this point?

As far as being "friends" with xWW after your D, I don't know that I would call it FRIENDS. What do friends do? They hang out with eachother. They call each other. They talk to each other about their problems in life and support them. Are you going to do these things with your xWW? Do you see yourself going out for coffee while she tells you about her problems with her new bf? Even if you think you could, you shouldn't. If you plan on having a new R with someone else then you need to NOT be friends with people of the opposite sex. That's the MB way

Opt- I understand the struggle on where to draw the line between being 'civil' and being 'friends'. My WW also has the fantasy idea that we will be good friends through and after this ordeal.

I would drop the lie detector thoughts and continue to move on while still being civil to your WW. Deep down, you probably know the truth anyway.

Are you currently beyond any thoughts of recovering your M? I know you are not actively working to that end, but if WW has a sudden realization and agrees to comply w/any and all of your requirements, would you? Or have you made up your mind and no matter what, you are marching for Plan D?

I think you're right. OM#1 is dangerous. Have you looked into legal options to make sure he stays away from your family?

As far as the poly, I'd drop it. She won't do it, and it won't change anything anyway.

I can't imagine being friends with an ex. Civil, maybe, but certainly not friends.

Well, its unanimous! Don't pursue the lie detector.
--My DS13 told me tonight that I didn't have to worry about her talking to him anymore. He has told her that if she does, he'll lose all his respect for her. That's pretty powerful.

Prior to that conversation with DS13, I expressed my concerns to ww about the potential dangerousness of this freak, and how vulnerable D8 is with us separated. I reminded her of his manipulative and obsessive behavior. For the first (or second) time, she didn't defend him or show sympathy towards him. She appears to have developed an indifferent regard for him and also stated that she basically feels really stupid for letting him manipulate her all of last summer. She claims she hasn't responded to his efforts to contact her. I retorted that's not enough and that legal authorities should be involved on the grounds of harassment. She ultimately got around to looking into how to block a number from her phone (which I believe is possible with her new service).

There were a lot of disrespectful things I could have said in response to this enlightened position, but I left it at that.

Anyway, about the polygraph. I'm still glad I made my point with her. Now, this summer when I decline her request to go to the beach with her (or whatever crazy scheme she has for us to be "friends") I can remind her that I really have no interest in being friends with someone who hurt me and my family so much and has yet to do anything I requested in the way of making amends.

Besides, I maintain that if she was really interested in repairing any aspect of our relationship, she would at least entertain ANY idea I threw out there, discuss it, look into it, consider it. I really think she's interested in maintaining a healthy relationship with me as long as it's not too inconvenient for her and doesn't require any particular effort on her part. (that's a little something she calls "following her heart" - the point of debate about me following MB. She simply doesn't want to do anything that would take introspection.)

[rambling]

Scot - thanks for the female perspective on friendship and what it means to a woman (no offense guys - love your input too!). I hadn't given the whole concept much thought but your depiction of friendship helped me see the importance of going to a Plan B type approach as soon as she moves out. Like an old favorite song by Young MC "I don't mind being a shoulder to cry on, but I need one who has a body to lie on." (lol, that never gets old).

Limbo, thanks so much for your insightful question. You can bet I'll have an answer for you. You've given me a lot to contemplate and that's one thing I love about this board: you've "put the question to me" and I feel obligated to respond. Otherwise those same questions would typically just rattle around my head without an answer ever taking shape or form. I know the process of anwering you with thoughtful consideration will help me. Hopefully my perspective will also help others.

As a precursor: I told a trusted friend a couple of weeks ago "I would take her back, but she would pretty much have to turn herself inside out first"

~O~

Answer � Part I:
I�ve been thinking of this question for two days and I�ve only concluded that it�s very difficult to answer right now because I have such mixed emotions.

First you should know that through a lot of introspection and analysis of my 15 year marriage, I have concluded that, as mentioned above, this M was not based on strong principles. Details not necessary, you can trust me on that. So, the next logical question is why stay in a R for so long if it�s not �working.� My EN�s weren�t being met, not by a long shot. Evidently neither were hers; but with such a lack of communication (an essential ingredient in any bad M) we weren�t able or willing to discuss that fact more than we did.

Of course we didn�t know anything about options or MB principles, so we were just like every other struggling M before a possible solution presents itself (which is usually precipitated by a crisis, unfortunately).

What I always leaned on was a philosophy I developed in college �make a decision and live with it.� That philosophy saved me from a lot of hand-ringing and procrastination throughout my adult life. I always figured I could make the best of virtually any situation. Enter kids into the equation outlined above and you have someone who can swallow a lack of SF for the sake of making sure the children aren�t raised in two single parent households. Frankly, my wife is excellent at avoiding LB�ers. She also found a way to ignore mine, at least on the outside. We went for 7 years like that after the birth of D8.

And you know what? I�d probably do another 8 years like that if I thought it would be positive for the kids. I would walk through fire for them.

However, I won�t endure the abuse of a wayward who isn�t interested in working to better the marriage. That�s not the kind of R I want to model for them. I would be a bad parent if I allowed them to grow up thinking there was anything normal about a parent having boyfriends and then not taking responsibility for such a colossal mistake.

Thing is, she�s never going to own up to her issues. And that brings me to Part II.

Part II:

I can count on one hand the number of times my wife has accepted responsibility for a bad decision, mistake, etc. She just doesn�t have that trait/skill. I guess it is in her upbringing or genes or something of that nature. Unfortunately, I think this leads to a tremendous inability to grow as a person. When you won�t admit a mistake, you can�t learn from it.

She went through a period of serious contemplation and soul searching, introspection, building when she was in her 20�s. But I think that was about it. I really haven�t seen any substantial desire on her part since we got married to grow as a person. She seems quite content with who she is. And who she is is arguably a pretty good person. Very good in fact. I could actually stay married to her as she�s actually quite pleasant to be around and doesn�t really cause much trouble. But it would be a weak relationship. One that couldn�t endure Adultery.

Through learning about MB principles, I can see that there is a possibility of having a gratifying special relationship. I just don�t see it happening with STBXW.

However, to answer your question more directly, if she somehow came to a change of heart, she would have to agree to a substantial list of conditions I have stored in a document. It is substantial. Almost impossibly substantial.

Interestingly, on Sunday I got her a card. There is actually a section for �Troubled Relationship.� I wrote in it some words about hoping she would explore her spirituality at some point, something I think is sorely missing from her life; just expressing that God hasn�t forgotten her. I also mentioned that if she decided to try and explore the possibility of reconciling, I would be willing to discuss it with her openly. That didn�t get any response. I must be a real SOB, lol.

And don�t get me wrong. I�ve played a very considerable role in getting us where we are today. I recognize that. Part of my problem is being able to point out everyone else�s faults, as I�ve done so effectively above; but hey, that�s me. Call it ignorance. Tragic ignorance. I�ve since learned the difference between disrespectful judgements and recognizing facts � that�s honestly what I�ve tried to do here.

Anyway, this A was the game changer.

It also changed me as a person; I don�t look at things the same way. When we started this whole adventure I remember latching on to our counselor�s phrase �Behaviors repeated form habits. Habits repeated form character.� I have a lot of behaviors that I could stand to adopt, and a lot I could stand to eliminate; the process has started and is influenced highly by what I�ve learned here.

Well my last two posts were either too long to read or I haven't veered too far off a sane path yet.

Something that's starting to get to me and I'd like to get myself prepared for it. [I know this is a D question, I'll start a new thread there soon I think, but for now here I am, hopefully someone can give some pointers]

So far everyone is "handling" the concept of D pretty well around here. We've taken extra care to spend time with the kids and give them lots of attention/nurturing, listening, etc.

But that's all it is right now: a concept. ww and I are being quite civil and supportive of each other, so to the kids it's not really impactful that M&D aren't in love anymore.

I'm really worried about when the day finally comes when she moves out, Separation. I want to be prepared if possible, becuase it's going to be really hard for me to be in this house without them, 3 nights then 4 nights/wk. I don't think I'll be that worried about htem b'c ww is generally a good mom.

I�m just afraid I�m going to have a lot of second thoughts.

Anyone have experience with this transition period? Anything else to look out for?

~optimism

Hey Opt,

The biggest tip I could give you is to stay busy. The idle time will get your mind racing. You neither want, nor need the mental gymnastics: "What if" scenarios, what is she doing, what are the kids doing, etc. I can't stress enough the need to stay busy during the early stages of the transition. Be with other people, partipipate in activities, focus on work.

When I just want to hang at home by myself, I watch shows or movies that keep me preoccupied.

It's not full-proof, but it helps.

And in case anyone is wondering, I'm holding off on updates on my sitch for a few days. I'll say more later.

Hang in there, Opt.