If you want to be rich, learn what rich people do and emulate them.

If you want to be recovered, learn what recovered couples have done to recover and do the same things.

If you want a great marriage, find a couple with a great marriage and learn what they do to make the marriage great. Then do the same things that they do.

Not hard logic to follow, for me.

But then again, my emotions aren't involved in making choices for other people...

Both. Sister(s) and girlfriend.

--ElCamino72

I suspect that it is the younger one. She divorced a couple of years ago to marry her OM who was her boss.

--ElCamino72

Yes, this is true.

When I found out my mother was committing adultery, I revealed it to the worst choice in the world -- her mother.

You see, my mother had been criticizing her mother for her adulteries for years.

That very same night, witnesses tell me, her mother laid into her terribly, hatefully, insidiously, triumphantly. I was not present but can only imagine how hellish and disgusting it must have been. Like turning a soul over to Satan for gleeful torment.

I getting a sense here that WW does not want to tell her parents because they will get mad. Her sisters are telling her "Don't tell mom and dad (because they will get mad)". Well isnt that the point?

I think you put yourself in a position by agreeing with the wife about who to expose to. It takes away a lot of your choice to protect yourself. I don't know how it would play out if you expose to the in-laws without WW's approval.

El C


I can only imagine the conversations.

That does explain quite a bit. I challenged Rizos that she was afraid to tell her parents for unknown reasons but likely something that happened in the past. She never replied. Now at least one of the reasons has surfaced. BTW, waywards who marry have something less than 5% chance of making a good marriage that lasts, or less.

Larry

What are in-laws views about sis?

Yes, one of the biggest mistakes I did in the beginning was that I didn't widely expose when it mattered. I wasn't lucky enough to find MB until three months after D-Day so I was in plan C for way too long.

Exposure was one of the first issues I asked Steve Harley when I started coaching. What I can say is that there are certain factors in my case where exposure could potentially make the situation more difficult so the plan has taken certain precautions into consideration.

--ElCamino72

For the moment, I'll refrain to comment on this specific one because I don't want to speculate. Even though I may have a different point of view in certain areas that my in-laws, In general I have great affection for them. There's other people in Rizos family of origin that I don't feel as comfortable. I've let her know about this.

--ElCamino72

There are a lot of unanswered communications waiting for rizos on her thread.

Larry

Last night I requested Rizos to talk to my mother about the A. I believe that Rizos should face my mother and tell her what we're doing to R from her A. In addition, I think that Rizos should offer an apology and thank the support we're receiving.

My request was not well received by Rizos. She was visibly upset about it. I believe I didn't commit any LBs in my request. Rizos response felt to contain anger and it seemed like she was assuming that my request is geared to hurt her. Her defensiveness really gets on the way when I try to be open and hoonest.

I'd appreciate your comments about my request. Is there anything wrong to ask Rizos to face my mother?

--ElCamino72

El Camino:

I don't know if there is anything in Dr. Harley's toolkit that would deal with Rizos' mental state. According to what I know about Dr. Harley's concepts, your request was both proper and should be well received by someone who has had 12 hours of direct coaching and the MB weekend plus time on the forum. And who has signed on to use Dr. Harley's concepts for the recovery of an affair and the resulting near destruction of a marriage.

For a long time, I was under the impression that you were not only aware of whatever mental issues rizos had not dealt with effectively and the reason(s) for her seeming to lack the effort to engage the tools she has been given. Now, with your question, I am not sure of your personal thoughts.

She does know a lot, but that doesn't seem to be affecting what she does from time to time. Actively engaging with triggers over her hair multiple times is not what I would expect from a truly repentant wayward. That and other clues led me to believe certain things.

I spent a bit of time "Picking" at rizos and while I succeeded in irritating her, I could not get the level of anger needed to get her to open up very much like I did with mamasita.

Well, that isn't completely true. Rizos did react enough for MelodyLane to get involved and that interchange was effective. You have seen me use the same technique with mamasita, who seems to have finally figured out what I was doing and has decided to once again communicate with me.

By the way, you have provided some very good advice to both mamasita and papasita. Please continue to do so if you are motivated to continue. Helping others is a great way to learn and apply what we learn.

Back to rizos. It is my "Gut" feel that she is harboring some sort of secret. It may be "Secret" guilt or "Secret guilty pleasures." I haven't a clue which, or if that is even real or not. Or it may be something completely off the wall but important to her.

In my opinion, something or some thought process or entitlement issue has arrested her progress along the path of recovery. I say this based on both her forum posts and her exchange with Dr. Harley. You might want to read and digest my post on guilt and shame to see if you can see some clues there. It is in the Other Topics forum.

If I had to guess, which is really what you are asking, Rizos is either continuing to get her infatuation "Fix" from something that keeps her in the fog, or she has an entitlement issue which is maintaining the same thing. Another possibility is that "Public" shame is a HUGE issue with her and to be avoided at all cost. I have seen somewhere approaching at least 300, maybe more, wayward spouses on this forum and I can spot fog talk a mile away. Others share my opinion of rizos state of mine on this perception both by their comment and the back room talk that sometimes goes on here.

But that said, it could be guilt and the fear of public shame. I simply don't know enough to to focus on just one possibility. You may.

So the bottom line is either entitlement, continued immersion in the fog of infatuation, or guilt and shame. Any or all of those combined would certainly create what I have seen and presumably you have seen as well. And of course there may be some other secret carefully hidden by rizos.

Whatever the cause, I do not believe that rizos has subscribed to a full and complete recovery using Dr. Harley's MB concepts as the basis. In many ways, she acts as if she were still in the fog, but those symptoms can also be expressed for some other reasons as I have detailed.

I don't know if you have read my posting thread or not. Near the end of it as it currently stands, is an analysis of Infatuation versus Dr. Harley's concepts. You might find the analysis useful.

Please accept this analysis as a genuine effort to help you and rizos as you each struggle to rebuild your marriage. I am just a person sharing their experience in life for whatever it is worth and I could very well be way off the target. Perhaps JL or Schoolbus or Mel or one of the other more learned folks on here will get interested in rizos and add their own perception.

All the best

Larry

OM is your parents' neighbor, right?

Hi Larry,

Thanks for the insight.

Last night, Rizos asked me "besides your mother, who else you want me to tell?". Her tone sounded like she wants to get it over with - didn't sound like she genuinely wants to address this issue. I expressed to her that it hurts when she gets defensive. She just muttered an empty sounding "I'm sorry".

She may end up talking to my mother just like when she spoke to her mother (possibly to get me off her back). I question if this is progress when every step is taken so reluctantly.

I posed my concern as a question because I want to leave space to be corrected for any possible mistakes that I could be making.

What I have perceived that is hindering Rizos motivation to R is a misguided ego. Many times our struggles come from her tendency to see our R as a competition of "who's right or wrong". She is in fact extremely afraid of public shame and very reluctant to apologize for her mistakes. For many reasons she's not able to differentiate humility and humiliation.

SH once explained to me that some people can't accept their mistakes because that causes them to feel such a strong feeling of failure that they prefer to lose everything before taking responsibility. People in this situation have an extreme fear that accepting a mistake will make them face a part of them that they hate. They'd rather fight everybody back with self righteousness to keep them from looking into themselves.

We'll see.

--ElCamino72

Yes, OM is my parents' next door neighbor.

As a little more background, I had exposed to my parents back in Dec (five months after DDay). When Rizos didn't come with me to my parents house on to their Xmas party, everybody was asking about her. I told my parents that we were having marital problems and kept it at that. This was a shock to them since they couldn't imagine us having problems.

When I told my parents that our M was in trouble I told them that I didn't want to go into details to avoid further ruining Xmas. For whatever reason, my father pulled me to the side and advised me to be careful about the temptations of other women. His implication that I was having an A was hurtful and Rizos actions had put me in this position.

Next day I explained my parents the whole situation which they found to be nothing but incredible. Specially since OM was a longtime friend and my parents next door neighbor.

About a week later, I told Rizos that I had exposed to my parents which she didn't take well either. Nevertheless, Rizos had visited my parents right after exposure and they still treated her normally. Both of my parents have expressed support to our M and to Rizos (who they say they love like a daughter). However, the issue has not been spoken in front of Rizos and everybody has continued like nothing has happened.

Rizos told me a few days ago that my mother called her and during their conversation my mother ask how was our M going. Rizos told her that we were doing OK and changed the subject. IMHO, I think she missed the perfect opportunity right there. I mean, I am not looking for Rizos to get on her knees and beg. I think she should just to own her mistakes and briefly say what is right in this situation.

I am going to be the first one to admit that I don't have the greatest relationship with my mother. However, during this situation my parents have been very supportive of both of us. Many times, our DDs stay with my mother when Rizos and I go for RC or UA time.

I can tell my parents are stressed about our M problems. They had the illusion that Rizos and I had the perfect M and that image was shattered. I've explained to them that we're working under the best program for R. However, I sense that Rizos avoiding the issue with them is causing doubts. I think we need to clear this issue and provide some assurance to them that we're working on having a successful M and a safe environment for their granddaughters. A brief conversation about our present and hopes for the future may go a long way for my parents.

--ElCamino72

I don't think that I have ever posted to you, ElCamino but I have followeded your thread from the beginning. The problem with any program is that it cannot change the personalities of the participants. My FWH is and has always been reluctant to apologize and slow in forgiving. His entire family is like that and it is very much a learned response. Defensiveness runs rampant in his family. That has very much hampered our R but I see him overcompensating in other areas. He is awesome at filling my ENs which is a good thing because he struggles with LBs.

I have no illusions that he will ever become an olive branch bearing, MB fanatic like I am but the changes that I see are truly wonderful when I compare his actions and reactions to his pre D-day behavior. I am almost always content with that except on those days when my taker reminds me that he not I broke our vows and turned our world upside down. At those times, I try to remind myself that we both married imperfect people and that he more than likely will never be SMB's wonderfully repentant, MB poster boy FWH but he is mine.

It has taken nearly three years for me to reach this point of understanding though. My prayers remain with you and your R.

God's Blessings,

Say

EC,

I saw your post yesterday while at work which for some reason has become a lot of work and so I didn't find time to answer you and since I don't spend much time here after I get home these days, I never got around to it.

I see Say has alluded to the thought I was going to look at so I guess that is covered but I did want to look at this:But this is your perception, right? This is what you think drives her the way she goes. It is what you believe about here motives and intentions. It is what you respond to by your actions...

Do you see the dilemma in acting and choosing to react to perceptions that may or may not be reality? You are reacting to something you think she feels without knowing if she even feels that way. This places the two of you into an instantaneous adversarial position, you trying to get her to change her views and her resisting being pushed to change and all based on how you think she might feel about it.

So did Steve ever tell you that the way to respond to this was to force the person to examine themselves, stand up to their fears and do what they are so reluctant to do? I realize that he might have said that this was the way they should handle it themselves, by standing up to their fears and challenging their own way of thinking and do what they don't want to do but did he say that it is up to you to get her to do that?

Some of the possible ways this could shake out in the long run:

* Rizos could one day feel remorse for hurting your parents and apologize of her own accord. (They already know most of the story though only from your POV and maybe they don't need to hear all the foggy self justification quite yet anyway)

* You can keep pressing her to stand up and confess and say that she is sorry. 'OK. So I'm not perfect. I am SO SORRY...' (Doesn't sound like a sincere apology to me but probably what can be expected under such terms)

* Rizos might never admit to your parents what is going on now, what happened then or any of the dynamics and lies from the affair. They might still choose to forgive her since you have forgiven her or they might refuse to forgive her whether you forgive her or not. (She broke her vows to you, not them)

* Her parents are a different story. She needs to explain to them why you are talking about leaving with their grandchildren. (Your parents already know since YOU told them) But you guys could end up hating each other for years over whether or not she is willing to stand up and admit her affair to people who already know about it. I just don't see the win in this being so big that the cost is worth it.

As the marriage improves you might be able to get POJA agreement out of her to apologize to your parents. But forcing it and making it a requirement of continuing recovery just doesn't strike me as a battle I'd have to win right now.

The idea that was used by Germany in WWII and has shown itself to still be a valid way to overpower an enemy in war is to choose the path of least resistance and to simply overwhelm the defenders, driving relentlessly and single minded toward a goal, such as the capital of the enemy or their command centers etc. You don't waste time engaging every unit you encounter and end up slogging it out step by step along the way but instead get on the road, drive toward the goal avoiding getting caught up in skirmishes, just shooting back as you drive past the defenders.

When you reach your goal, the troops that are defending are disorganized at best, scared to death since you just ran over every other resistance and now you get to pick the one battle that will win the entire conflict and get the enemy to surrender. Other little battles will still happen after that and the "underground" might still hold out for a long time, but the "war" will be won and over .

What I am suggesting here EC is that you realize that the war is more important than winning even a single battle along the road to recovery. You don't even have to be right to recover if you do what leads to recovery. Be sure that this is a battle that you must win to recover before you engage in it. Can it be fought later after the main battle has been won? Can you only love her again if she confesses to your folks? Can you only keep trying if she does it now? Would skipping it and moving on to the next objective mean that you can't move on because you will have to keep fighting about this forever until it happens?

Is this the line in the sand?

Is this the hill you will be willing to die on?

Is it the missing piece that will result in recovery if it happens and will prevent recovery if it does not?

Is this the one thing she needs to do that will make everything turn out the way you envision your marriage? Does recovery hinge on this piece? Is her surrender on this the only way for you to win the war?

Mark